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Forced Induction Discuss topics relating to turbochargers, superchargers, and nitrous oxide systems.
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Old 03-21-2005, 12:24 AM   #1
J-Ri
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Electric forced air induction?

I was bored today and started looking all though AF. Found this section, and thought I may as well ask. I found some electric superchargers on e-bay a while back. At the time, I figured I'd need 9 of them for my truck (3 in series, 3 of those in parallel) to get the flow I'd need and still have any pressure. I've heard that the electric ones work on small ricer engines, but what about a 350 small block chevy? Has anyone put the electric ones on a big engine? I know I'd need a second battery (optoma yellow top, shared with my winch) with an isolation switch to keep from burning up the alternator. I have the room under the hood to mount 9 of them. All I need to know is would they really do anything?

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-Jason
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:50 AM   #2
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Re: Electric forced air induction?

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Old 03-21-2005, 09:28 PM   #3
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Re: Electric forced air induction?

I had already searched for past threads. I came to the same conclusion I did 2 years ago when I first heard of the electric superchargers. Now can anyone answer my question? Has anyone tried them on larger engines?
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Old 03-21-2005, 11:18 PM   #4
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Re: Electric forced air induction?

If you had really read the answers, you would have seen that they don't work, period. I don't care how many you have, you'll exceed the available amperage draw by tenfold before you gain even a single HP.

It would literally take about 15 hp worth of electric motors to create enough flow to create boost. At approximately 150 amps per HP at 12v, that equates to about 2250 amps. If you had a conductor about as big around as your leg, 30 alternators, and 30 batteries, you might create an extra 10 hp. Of course, at a cost of about 7 hp per 100 amps of power not including belt losses, that's a loss of over 150 hp just to drive the alternators. That doesn't include the packaging concerns or the added 500 lbs of alternators, belts, and wiring.

No matter how you slice it, it costs more power than it makes, or restricts the intake more than it boosts.
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:02 AM   #5
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Re: Electric forced air induction?

I did read the answers, and searched before I posted. There were positive and negative answers. They have about 1 PSI boost at 300-400 CFM. So, I would need several for my truck. If we can go back to my original question:

HAS ANYONE USED ELECTRIC "SUPERCHARGERS" ON A LARGER ENGINE? I just want it for a little boost through the mud pits or climbing a hill, It's not like I'm going to be driving down the street with them on.

If you can point me to a specific thread, rather than search results, that would be alright too. It is possible that neither my searches, nor Alastor187's search hit the page that would benefit me.
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Old 03-22-2005, 09:12 AM   #6
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I don't see why you're getting upset. All they said was that they DO NOT work. Even if you are just using them for "the mudpits or climbing a hill. You'll get like 2 psi of boost, which will make no differnce, whatsoever. Using them on a larger engine would yield about the same results as on an import engine. NONE!
These people are trying to help you by telling you not to waste your time or money on superchargers that SUCK.

...I may have misunderstood your emotions, but caps usually mean you're yelling...
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Old 03-23-2005, 12:42 AM   #7
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Re: Electric forced air induction?

I didn't intend to "yell", just drawing attention to my original question. I suppose i could have bolded or underlined tho...

I don't know a lot about forced induction, but why wouldn't a couple PSI make a difference?
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Old 03-23-2005, 01:51 AM   #8
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Actually, no matter how low the boost you add, you WILL get some advantage.

All normally aspirated engines operate under a vaccuum condition in the intake manifold.

All normally aspirated enginrs have a point at which "volumetric efficiency" becomes nil. Simply said, they can't suck in enough air, so as to overcome the inertia of the air itself, that they start to choke. Choke is actually a bad word, as the engine cannot drag enough air past the venturis, in a carbureted engine, to drag fuel in. So they lean out, instead, to the point that they die.

If you can boost the air by "even" 2 psi, you will raise the max at which the engine starves, again.

At 5000 RPM that 350 needs 500 CFM. When your manifold vaccuum rises too much, you are sucking less than the engine needs to burn the fuel. To add an electric centrifugal blower that can PASS over 500 CFM, not only as boost, WOULD boost volumetric efficiency, as would be demonstrated by those naysayers here who have had their intakes polished to reduce resistance to flow, such as Extrude Hone's process.

And, 9 in a row, is an exagerration. A centrifugal compressor, a blower in this case, doubles the pressure, per stage..

I'll have to get a measurement from some of the blowers in the garage. I know you can't hold your hand over the outlet, at least not easily.

I've built them, in a factory, large ones, that were capable of 10,000 PSI, and that is not a misprint. These were centrifugal compressors, for deepwell oil applications. Some damned dense air, when you got to the last few stages. No piston, nor gear,nor vane pump could handle the volume required.

Cheers,

George

And the blower, as such, should not have that big a current draw. Work it out on your shopvac.ANY free air you get is a bonus.
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:38 AM   #9
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I have a few things for you to think about.
These "Electric Turbo/Superchargers" that you see on ebay all time? Do you know what they really are? Do you know what they really cost? They are fans... Most of them are bilge fans for boats. Bathroom vents... and they cost less then 20 bucks brand new. The qualifying term here is "FAN"... They are NOT compressors. They have no way of "compressing" ANY kind of intake charge. Look up fan and compressor in the dictionary. Most of these "fans" flow under 200CFM at full load with NO outlet restriction. Put them in an intake tract and all they do is restrict flow to the carb/injectors. A good running small block will outflow one of these things by the time it's transitioned off idle...
Do what you have to do but realize these things are being sold as automotive hardware which is a blatant misrepresentation of their intended use.
Do a google search for "bilge fan" or bilge vent". You will see the exact same pics of these fans that the sellers on ebay stole to put in their auctions. Bathroom fans do not make "superchargers".
Read this... Scroll down a bit and you'll find a pretty comprehensive article on these bilge fans...
http://www.dansdata.com/danletters105.htm
Mark
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:43 AM   #10
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Sorry, I'll read the OP more thoroughly next time.

You're right, those would block airflow more than help.

If the OP wants some boost, he's gonna have to spend more than those 20 buck fans cost.

Cheers,

George
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Old 03-23-2005, 12:03 PM   #11
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Re: Electric forced air induction?


PSST!! I got this pill. You put it in your gas tank and then fill it up with water. C'mon, 10 bucks!
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Old 03-23-2005, 06:40 PM   #12
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Re: Electric forced air induction?

I wasn't refering to the fan-in-a-tube that's all over e-bay now. The one I saw was actually a centrifugal blower. It was also a bit more than $20, been awhile so I don't remember what it cost. I have decided to wait till my engine wears out (it's gonna be a long time) and then put a real turbo or supercharger on the replacement engine.

I know the $10 pill doesn't work, I tried the top of the line $30 pill and it didn't even work. Maybe I used the wrong kind of water.

Thanks for the help... and the smart-ass comment.
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Old 03-23-2005, 09:37 PM   #13
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Re: Electric forced air induction?

The answer is VERY simple.
Back-pack type leaf blowers!!

Black and Decker has a 12 volt 12 amp model.
Look:http://eshop.msn.com/marketplace.asp...tId=350&page=0

The gas powered kind blow really strong and can easily blow pebbles and stones off a parking lot. They develop huge volume and decent pressure, much more than an electric one.

Look: http://www.echo-usa.com/prods_list.a...ry=POWERBLOWER

I have one in my garage. Lets see....I can bungee it to the roof of my car, and cut a hole in the hood for the hose......and I can even open the sunroof to pull-start it.
Who knows, I might win a race or two.
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Old 03-24-2005, 01:55 AM   #14
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'Rat,

Alright, you found the answer. A B&D Leafblower will do the trick.

They ad them at MPH, 120 MPH, 150 MPH, etc.

Just wonder how many CFM. Pressure doesn't come into it, as if you can feed the intake enough air, it will take it.

Now, problem # 1, you have to start the engine with that obstruction in the intake.

Problem # 2, if the thing puts out more than the engine can handle, what do you do with the excess. As in, an engine that is 10:1 compression is that only with atmospheric pressure, not turbo, unless the turbo does not kick in till the engine starts to starve.

Now, you need to plumb the thing in so that it will give you boost, and not be an obstruction, and still be able to boost when you need it, so you have to engineer a wastegate, for one, and a "check valve" so it doesn't blow all the air back out of the naturally aspirated engine's intake.

What's next?

Cheers,

George
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Old 03-24-2005, 12:17 PM   #15
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Re: Re: Electric forced air induction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicRat
The answer is VERY simple.
Back-pack type leaf blowers!!

Black and Decker has a 12 volt 12 amp model.
Look:http://eshop.msn.com/marketplace.asp...tId=350&page=0

The gas powered kind blow really strong and can easily blow pebbles and stones off a parking lot. They develop huge volume and decent pressure, much more than an electric one.

Look: http://www.echo-usa.com/prods_list.a...ry=POWERBLOWER

I have one in my garage. Lets see....I can bungee it to the roof of my car, and cut a hole in the hood for the hose......and I can even open the sunroof to pull-start it.
Who knows, I might win a race or two.
A leaf blower is as the name implies, a blower, a blower doesn't compress the air. To get a power increase the air must be compressed (no ifs and buts), to compress the air the blower must feed air in a rate greater than the engine can consume. This will result in an increased pressure and and then a state of equilibrium where the mass flow over the compressor is equal with that over the engine. The problem with the leaf blower (those fitted with high power output gasoline engines) is that its blower isn't designed to increase pressure, it's just intended to increase airspeed and increasing the pressure does not only require quite some power, it also needs a carefully designed compressor.

12 volts and 12 amps is equal to 144 watts... I have more power than that in my electric R/C car.

I will however not say that it's totally impossible to get more power using leaf blowers. There are poeple that have build their own flow benchs using vacuum cleaner motors and fans, these only test on one cylinder and the pressure achieved with the fans are very low... still you need perhaps 10 motors to get the performance you need. So for a leaf blower to work you will need say 10 of those in a series increasing the pressure little by little while maintaing their flow. If you do that, then you probably can increase the power just a little on a small engine.
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