Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online!
Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! 
-
Latest | 0 Rplys
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Engineering/Technical
Engineering/Technical Ask technical questions about cars. Do you know how a car engine works?
Closed Thread Show Printable Version Show Printable Version | Email this Page Email this Page | Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-06-2005, 11:44 PM   #1
Airplane driver
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: PRC, Arizona
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

I am a pilot and my friend has a 1960~something Ford Maverick. He works at our university's airplane maintenance hangar and has access to avgas siphoned out of our planes for spin training (due to weight limitations). As most of you may not know, it's not too smart to put that fuel back into the planes (because of risk of fuel contamination and debris and what not) so it is usually is discarded.

This fuel is for piston planes (Cessnas etc) not jets, which use a more purified form of kerosine (Jet-A). It is called AVGAS or 100LL (LL for low lead) which is blue in color (for identification purposes) and has a sweet but heavy smell.

This fuel is destined to be burned or dumped somewhere and at many airports you could get that fuel for free.

His car was running rough (bad valves) and with fuel prices so high, he put this 100L he got form our maintenance barrels in his car. The result? A smooth-running sweet-smelling engine!!!

The engine is a carburated 6 banger and has no catalytic converter, so really there isn't much that could go wrong with it. It only runs a few degress hotter, but within limits. I suspect it might produce knocking or pre-ignition eventually, but he says he hasn't experienced any yet. He says it runs way better than with 100 octane gasoline sold in California, probably because of the lead.

I'm not too sure about this, maybe some engineer could explain, but my theory is that this would no way work with today's engines though, with so many sensors and stuff that would go wild with the lead, not to mention the catalytic converter clogging up.

So if you're sick of high gas prices and have an old car, run to your local (general aviation!!!) airport and put in some avgas!!!

Just an interesting story I'd think I'd share with you.

EDIT: just to clarify, the fuel in those barrels isn't necesarilly dirty, but it's not considered safe enough for aviation purposes. That's why fuel filters were invented anyways.
Airplane driver is offline  
Old 09-07-2005, 01:05 AM   #2
Moppie
Master Connector
 
Moppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Auckland
Posts: 11,781
Thanks: 95
Thanked 101 Times in 80 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Moppie Send a message via AIM to Moppie Send a message via Yahoo to Moppie
Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

Here in NZ, and Im sure else where in the world that unused and old Avgas (there is also an expiry date on it) is collected by the oil companys and repackaged into 20L drums to be resold as 100+ RaceGas.

Running to high an octane fuel in your car will not generaly have any negative effects.
Your friends over heating is more likely a result of having a cooling system not able to deal with a heavily modified engine, and or from running to much ignition advance.
The only reason an engine orginaly designed for the streat won't run on avlaible fuels is if its been modified, or is running to much advance.



AvGas does contain lead, and if you run it in a car with a catalytic converter it will clog it very quickly.
Lead is also not good from some types of O2 sensor.



And note that in most countries that have totaly converted to Lead Free petrol I think you will find its very illegal to run leaded gas on the street, this includes AvGas, and here in NZ even RaceGas is illegal on the street.


Don't go rushing off to your local airport expecting to be able to get free fuel.
__________________
Connecting the Auto Enthusiasts
Moppie is offline  
Old 09-07-2005, 02:11 AM   #3
curtis73
Professional Ninja Killer
 
curtis73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Penn Hills, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,561
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

Correct... not to mention that Avgas is a much lighter fuel, meaning it won't burn properly without recalibrating your carburetor. Stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1, but stoichiometric for Avgas is more like 11:1. All things equal, just putting Avgas in a car may cause it to run lean enough to burn valves, overheat exhaust and engine components, and cause all kinds of damage.

Great idea for racers who can calibrate their carbs (or EFI) to deliver the right ratio, but not for regular street cars.
__________________
Dragging people kicking and screaming into the enlightenment.
curtis73 is offline  
Old 09-07-2005, 05:58 AM   #4
sracing
AF Regular
 
sracing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Lexington, Kentucky
Posts: 126
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airplane driver
I'm not too sure about this, maybe some engineer could explain, but my theory is that this would no way work with today's engines though, with so many sensors and stuff that would go wild with the lead, not to mention the catalytic converter clogging up.

So if you're sick of high gas prices and have an old car, run to your local (general aviation!!!) airport and put in some avgas!!!
Actually it would work better on newer engines. With a couple exceptions.... The lead would ruin the cat after awhile and to a lessor degree it would ruin the 02 sensor(s). Aside from that, the avgas would work just fine.

On a carbed engine like your friends there is one serious problem and one very minor. He is in violation of federal and local law. (Actually a couple laws in each area.) The other is that his a/f ratio might be off a tad. It's isn't significant though. We test engines on the dyno here and have used 94 Octane premium, 100LL avgas and 110/115 race fuels and a/f ratios don't very by much more than .3 or so.

Jim
SR Racing
sracing is offline  
Old 09-09-2005, 08:16 PM   #5
beef_bourito
AF Enthusiast
 
beef_bourito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,191
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

is there any way to remove the lead in a cheap fashion, as in if you did manage to get the fuel for free to unlead it for a price cheaper than you would buy it? also, i thought kerosene was like diesel and therefor would burn less in normal engines, also if it is like that how well would it work on a diesel car?
beef_bourito is offline  
Old 09-09-2005, 09:00 PM   #6
curtis73
Professional Ninja Killer
 
curtis73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Penn Hills, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,561
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

diesel, kerosene, jet fuel, and fuel oil are very similar in properties. For the most part, you could put any of them in a diesel engine and it would run. Modifications to the engine would be required for it to run well and for long term use.

Kerosene and Jet fuel will eat rubber pretty quickly, and kero will also not flow well through paper fuel filters. Heating oil is a little less volatile and more viscous.

I would assume that the lead could be removed. Its tetraethyl lead and I believe its a powder that gets dissolved in some liquid before being added. If you found something that reacted with the Pb it might precipitate out. Of course, if you take out the lead, you remove its primary source of its octane rating. You might be able to supplement it with toluene, but I think its not going to be a very viable alternative fuel when you're done
__________________
Dragging people kicking and screaming into the enlightenment.
curtis73 is offline  
Old 09-10-2005, 02:27 AM   #7
flip888
AF Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 327
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

How would anyone know if you were running the avgas instead of normal gas though?

My friend uses offroad diesel (which is illegal) in his truck and never gets caught.
flip888 is offline  
Old 09-10-2005, 12:40 PM   #8
curtis73
Professional Ninja Killer
 
curtis73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Penn Hills, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,561
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

There are targeted enforcements of it. I don't think they'll ever know if you run 100LL in a car since they can't really check it. Off-road diesel is dyed red instead of green. The red dye stays in some parts of the engine forever. Farmers who use red diesel in their road vehicles sometimes are targeted when their yearly inspections happen. Its rare, but some people do get caught.
__________________
Dragging people kicking and screaming into the enlightenment.
curtis73 is offline  
Old 02-11-2008, 07:47 PM   #9
jibbastack
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: salem, New Hampshire
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cool Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

Id at least a cpl laws sracing and as far as getting caught, well up to you these are CFR'S federal,......your call
jibbastack is offline  
Old 02-11-2008, 07:49 PM   #10
2.2 Straight six
That thing got a Hemi?
 
2.2 Straight six's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: London
Posts: 9,337
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Send a message via AIM to 2.2 Straight six Send a message via MSN to 2.2 Straight six
Re: I know a car that runs on FREE airplane fuel!!! Not kiding!!!(AVGAS)

old thread. closed.
__________________
Seatbelts Saved My Life
2.2 Straight six is offline  
 
Closed Thread

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD


Bookmarks
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Engineering/Technical

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:43 PM.

Community Participation Guidelines | How to use your User Control Panel

Powered by: vBulletin | Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
 
 
no new posts