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Old 04-27-2006, 03:09 AM   #91
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

I would pick a Vette Z06 in a heartbeat. 7 litres vs 2.6, 50-50 balance (Or very near to) or a nose-heavy pig of a car that's weighed down by a pointless AWD system0? Jeez really hard choice....
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:00 AM   #92
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

ok vettribution There are hardly and and i know this for a fact tooling cost in manufacturing an engine. You can use the same tools to fabrticate a v8, v6, i-4,i-5, i-6 whatever engine. Everything is cast, then it uses simple tools to machine the deck, hone the cylinders, and polish any parts that need to be smooth. The only cost that gets put out of wack is the cost for casting, mitsu has a good thing they have been using the block in most of there high performance cars since the early 90's. Once a cast is made its easy to remake a new one. Gm has it easy too the ls block has been used since the mid 90's and all the different variatins have little block change its usually all inn the heads.

What about and intercooler you say, i thing the corvettes mirrors put more air resistance on a vehicle than an intercooler would. And intercooler is pretty much a radiator, its just used to cool air and not fluid, and an intercooler is made to a much higher quality than a radiator. The stock radiator has more resistance.

Torque gets you off the line why do you think hondas rev up to 4,500-5,500 before a launch thats where the torque band comes in at in most i-4 engines. You go spend 50k on a vette, you can get a honda into the 10's for less than 10k. Including the cost of the car. Your average domestic goes for between 5k-25k depending on year, make, model. I will do a cost break down if needed.
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Don't ever look at cars as just imports or domestics. Just because a car is made in a certain country doesn't mean that it is anything like another car from that country. An example of this is Mitsubishi reliability, just because they are Japanese doesn't mean that they are as reliable as a Honda or Toyota.

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Last edited by pimprolla112; 04-27-2006 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:35 AM   #93
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryBoy Racer
ok guys the fact of the matter is import cars are better. i have this arguement with my friends everyday. and you know what i win. honestly what would you rather have a nissan skyline GTR or a 06 vette. tell me you wouldnt pick that skyline over that vette in a heartbeat. the only american car i would drive is a srt4 and thats still sport compact. hey im not dissin im just gettin my 2 pennies in the jar.

way, to make a blatant statement without backing it up by any facts. btw i would take a vette over an ugly, boxy looking skyline. i would take an mk4 supra over both of them though.
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:37 AM   #94
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pimprolla112

and an intercooler is made to a much higher quality than and intercooler.

haha
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:43 AM   #95
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Damn i didnt even notice that. Fixed now.
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Don't ever look at cars as just imports or domestics. Just because a car is made in a certain country doesn't mean that it is anything like another car from that country. An example of this is Mitsubishi reliability, just because they are Japanese doesn't mean that they are as reliable as a Honda or Toyota.

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Old 04-27-2006, 07:56 PM   #96
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimster
I would pick a Vette Z06 in a heartbeat. 7 litres vs 2.6, 50-50 balance (Or very near to) or a nose-heavy pig of a car that's weighed down by a pointless AWD system0? Jeez really hard choice....
Are you serious? Everyone knows Evos dominate cars costing 6 times as much around a track. I have already proven that with the many videos I posted. Go watch them. It's also pretty common knowledge that AWD owns in every area. The only drawback being SLIGHT drivetrain loss, which I've already PROVEN (again watch the videos - SRT4 vs. AWD Eclipse) is made up for many times over by it's launching abilities over 2WD. But prove me wrong...
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Old 04-28-2006, 12:47 AM   #97
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Negative points of AWD:

Easiest to break

Weighs a lot more

Prone to understeer (Due to haveing just as much weight up front as an FWD and not as much weight in the back as an RWD in most cases)

Benefits:

Good for loose surfaces

Good launches


*tumbleweed*

Evos dominate what? Luxury cars like CLK55's and M6's? Not hard to do. Stock for stock an Evo couldn't touch a proper sports car that costs more, simple as that (Plus if you tried to race a proper sports car Mitsubishi'd void your warranty )

Before you start I have no vendetta against AWD, so long as it's kept in family cars (I mean see my sig, I have one myself)
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:26 AM   #98
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Look at most track focused cars, they are almost all RWD. The Noble M12 GTO, the Caterhams, the Exige, and the Atom are all RWD. The Evo was built as a rally car, not a track car, and thus it needed to be AWD. The guys that make track car equivalents of the Evo almost all use RWD setups.

Since you like videos so much, I did a quick search on google video and found this-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+track&pl=true
The all mighty AWD Evo FQ400 against the RWD Noble M400. The Noble not only wins, but wins by 2.49 seconds, a fair amount for 1 lap.

Look at Porsche's old 996 lineup. The 911 Turbo was a great car, but when Porsche set out to make their track car, the GT3, it was RWD. Same thing with BMW. If you've ever driven a 330i and a 330xi back to back you would see the the RWD version tends to handle a bit better.

There are definitely some advantages to AWD like Jimster said, but the weight and understeer often outweigh any gains. The BMI videos and the lack of a direct RWD competitor for the Evo and STi have made alot of people think that its the greatest thing ever, but it is alot more complicated then this.

And Jim, what happened to the Bimmer? A 911! the engine is in the wrong place
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:46 AM   #99
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimster
Evos dominate what? Luxury cars like CLK55's and M6's? Not hard to do. Stock for stock an Evo couldn't touch a proper sports car that costs more, simple as that (Plus if you tried to race a proper sports car Mitsubishi'd void your warranty )
Lol! Watch the videos and get proven wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimster
Before you start I have no vendetta against AWD, so long as it's kept in family cars (I mean see my sig, I have one myself)
Yeah, so do I...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2
The guys that make track car equivalents of the Evo almost all use RWD setups.
Uh, no... You must be thinking of the English Norris Designs one. That's an anomoly. And if you want to use that car as an example, it's RWD, weighs almost nothing, and has more hp than the AMS *AWD* Evo that is full weight, yet it is still slower(AMS Evo is 9.4, ND Evo is 9.71). Hmmm....

I disagree that RWD is better than AWD around a track or on windy roads. Real life example: Tein has seven identically setup cars: an STi, an RX-8, an Evo, a FairladyZ (350Z), GS300, JDM Fit, and Vitz. Now you can see that there are AWD, RWD, and FWD cars in there. They raced them down one of Japan's windy touges. Here's a quote from the article:

"As exiting as rear-drive platforms are on the mountain pass, the last car to drive, the TEIN Evo, epitomizes the touge experience. Its precise steering, huge grip and docile balance sets this run apart from all the others by integrating the driver, machine and road into one sensation. I'm no londer battling the touqe in a car; the Evo is now an extension of me as if in a video game, where the dash, wheel, contols and even windshield have disppeared from notice."

You'll see this same thing in all of the videos, articles, etc that I posted. The Evo does not understear. It is nuetral (i.e. the best). And it can get it's back out if you want it to. The STi on the other hand does understear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2
Since you like videos so much, I did a quick search on google video and found this-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+track&pl=true
The all mighty AWD Evo FQ400 against the RWD Noble M400. The Noble not only wins, but wins by 2.49 seconds, a fair amount for 1 lap.
Wow, a dedicated, more expensive, purpose hand built track car beat the four door, A/C, grocery getting sedan. There will always be something faster and that Noble is a great car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2
There are definitely some advantages to AWD like Jimster said, but the weight and understeer often outweigh any gains. The BMI videos and the lack of a direct RWD competitor for the Evo and STi have made alot of people think that its the greatest thing ever, but it is alot more complicated then this.
Like I said earlier: Evos don't understear, and there are in fact RWD competitors to the Evo and STi such as a 350Z, RX-8, etc... and they lose.
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:33 AM   #100
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

identically set up cars?
as in the numbers involved are all exactly the same?
how does that work? i mean, wouldn't weight, centre of mass, engine, power, wheelbase, track etc etc, render any sort of "identical set up" redundant and hence any "data" colected from parallel testing redundant as well?

and what was taken as the "master" set up as it were?

and since when was the FQ400; hand built 400bhp evo from the ralliart boys a "four door, A/C, grocery getting sedan"
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:18 AM   #101
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

i didnt read all the posts but here is my general impresson about domestic versus import. I like domestics the best but i have to point something out. It doesnt matter if it is a small 4 banger or a big block v-8, if they both make the same power, both cars will have crappy gas mileage and that is a given. I personally think that the argument about american cars having crappy horsepower to cubic inch ratios is a totally b.s. A stock 350 might only make 260 horsepower, but it makes over 350 lb/ft of torque and is a better street engine with a better power curve. Besides... you can spend about 1500 bucks and you will have 440 horsepower and over 450 lb.ft. of torque and still be safe for 91 octane. that is a perfect street combo. The reason imports make a lot of horses per cube is that they do it at 6 or 7 thousand rpm and therefore make less torque down low (im sure there are lots of exceptions to this statement, so dont freak out lol). but in general, an n/a 350 making 400 horses is a lot quicker than a forced induction 4 cylinder making 400 horses because it makes a much better torque curve that doesnt have a narrow powerband. Again, dont come hunt me down... there are exceptions to my statements and i agree that currently, imports are of better quality and domestics need to step it up on that area lol
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:50 AM   #102
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Isnt that statement proving what the point of your post is against. Its a little self contradicting isnt it. Just because the 350 makes so much torque your forgetting that the torque is used to get the cars ass off the line after that the horsepower is what does the work. Also most imports make there torque at a lower RPM range than you would think. While you might have 100 mor ft/lbs of toraue than the 400 hp import you have another 1000-1500lbs on top of the import. You might get a nice launch but the second the import starts to get into the higher power band the car will pull. Assuming its a vtec engine where the power band just screams from 5500-9000 rpm and the added boost from the turbo the big block domestic doesnt stand a chance. Its a thing called power to weight ratio you can make 6000hp but if the car weighs as much as a damn tank it wont have the balls to get out of its own way. Thats one reason these 400 hp civics can run 10's in the quarter but the 400 hp camaro, mustang what ever it may be can only break into the low 12's.

If you want a better comparison ive seen 2 pupose built drag cars run a fox body mustang making 1100hp and about 1000 ft/lbs of torque, get beat by 3 cars lengths by a crx with 600hp and 400ft/lbs. Granted the crx weighed less than half the weight of the mustang, the mustang had more than double the amount of torque and almost doule the HP.

You should read back this has been discussed, its been an argument about the evo and awd for about 4 pages now.

Oh yeah Dinan Jeremy is like a god when it comes to cars.
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Don't ever look at cars as just imports or domestics. Just because a car is made in a certain country doesn't mean that it is anything like another car from that country. An example of this is Mitsubishi reliability, just because they are Japanese doesn't mean that they are as reliable as a Honda or Toyota.

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Old 04-28-2006, 11:57 AM   #103
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pimprolla112
Isnt that statement proving what the point of your post is against. Its a little self contradicting isnt it. Just because the 350 makes so much torque your forgetting that the torque is used to get the cars ass off the line after that the horsepower is what does the work. Also most imports make there torque at a lower RPM range than you would think. While you might have 100 mor ft/lbs of toraue than the 400 hp import you have another 1000-1500lbs on top of the import. You might get a nice launch but the second the import starts to get into the higher power band the car will pull. Assuming its a vtec engine where the power band just screams from 5500-9000 rpm and the added boost from the turbo the big block domestic doesnt stand a chance. Its a thing called power to weight ratio you can make 6000hp but if the car weighs as much as a damn tank it wont have the balls to get out of its own way. Thats one reason these 400 hp civics can run 10's in the quarter but the 400 hp camaro, mustang what ever it may be can only break into the low 12's.

If you want a better comparison ive seen 2 pupose built drag cars run a fox body mustang making 1100hp and about 1000 ft/lbs of torque, get beat by 3 cars lengths by a crx with 600hp and 400ft/lbs. Granted the crx weighed less than half the weight of the mustang, the mustang had more than double the amount of torque and almost doule the HP.

You should read back this has been discussed, its been an argument about the evo and awd for about 4 pages now.

Oh yeah Dinan Jeremy is like a god when it comes to cars.
the foxbody is not a heavy car. im sure the mustang you saw lose had nowhere near 1100 horsepower. a stock foxbody weighs less than 3000 and a crx weighs what 2000 so assuming each car has had an equal amount of weight reduction that thousand pound defecit would not make up for having 500 more horsepower.
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Old 04-28-2006, 12:01 PM   #104
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jveik
i didnt read all the posts but here is my general impresson about domestic versus import. I like domestics the best but i have to point something out. It doesnt matter if it is a small 4 banger or a big block v-8, if they both make the same power, both cars will have crappy gas mileage and that is a given. I personally think that the argument about american cars having crappy horsepower to cubic inch ratios is a totally b.s. A stock 350 might only make 260 horsepower, but it makes over 350 lb/ft of torque and is a better street engine with a better power curve. Besides... you can spend about 1500 bucks and you will have 440 horsepower and over 450 lb.ft. of torque and still be safe for 91 octane. that is a perfect street combo. The reason imports make a lot of horses per cube is that they do it at 6 or 7 thousand rpm and therefore make less torque down low (im sure there are lots of exceptions to this statement, so dont freak out lol). but in general, an n/a 350 making 400 horses is a lot quicker than a forced induction 4 cylinder making 400 horses because it makes a much better torque curve that doesnt have a narrow powerband. Again, dont come hunt me down... there are exceptions to my statements and i agree that currently, imports are of better quality and domestics need to step it up on that area lol

torque is really not that important, its just something the domestic fans say to better their arguments. dont get me wrong torque is useful and fun but when equating total speed it doesnt really matter. thats why a little 7th gen celica with 180hp and 135ft/lbs will run pretty even with a stock foxbody with 225hp and 300ft/lbs. granted the celica is lighter but not light enough to make that huge of a diffrence considering the foxbody is a light ass car in its own respect.
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:17 PM   #105
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

just to point something out... someone above said that the domestic will have more weight just being a v-8... they claimed up to 1000 more pounds. i think its safe to say that no domestic v-8 weighs 1000 pounds in the first place, let alone 1000 pounds more than a 4 cylinder.

if the cars are the same weight w/o the engine, you can make a pretty mean v-8 in there... the cars revving up to 9000 rpm is pretty expensive im going to assume, and it is indeed very expensive to get a smallblock chevy to be able to rev that high... besides the fact of lower longevity.

by the way, the statement that american v-8's dont make a horse per cube is total b.s. it depends on the application... most tuners make that assumption based on pickup truck engines and pre-nineties engines that really did suck, but honestly speaking, a pickup truck doesnt need high rpm power as much as low end torque, so they build many of the engines for lower rpm operation. the reason you can have a high horse import engine is that you dont put a 4banger in a 5000 pound pickup truck and tow stuff with it. you put them in 2500 pound compacts where torque down low isnt all that important. if you have to you can put forced induction in the equation to make up for some lost torque as well... thats why most high horsepower small inline 4's make so much power... they have help from forced induction. domestic v-8's dont need forced induction and high rpm's to make decent power...

a small 4 cylinder honda engine without turbo in stock form is probably pretty sad... in fact, while im restoring my chevy truck, i am drivng a honda right now that runs perfect but only makes something like 80 horsepower. it has no torque either... my freaking truck with burnt out exhaust valves and a 3 speed automatic was faster than this car lol.

im not trying to rag on the REAL tuner people... the ones with REAL modifications... those are cool cars... what im ragging on is the white trash kid with an aftermarket intake and a 6-inch-wide fart can on his mom's honda accord claiming he makes 300 horsepower from just those 2 bolt ons. the reason he gets 30 mpg in the city is that he makes 95 horsepower lmao!!! these kids probably dont even know what a camshaft is, let alone put racing ones in their engines.
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