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Old 02-25-2010, 08:08 AM   #31
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Re: Told you's so!!

At least you could see that easily. Chrysler used to put em in the fender wells
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:48 PM   #32
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Re: Told you's so!!

*** UPDATE ***

Another example of mushy/numb steering: (See section about 2012 Honda Civic - ditto the Outlander Sport immediately below that)

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/worst-ca...11.html?page=2

WHY are manufacturers doing this?? I can't believe this came out of some consumer focus group.
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:48 PM   #33
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Re: Told you's so!!

Could it be it was cheaper to manufacture?

Just curious, what is the cost difference on the average repair of electric PS system vs the hydraulic PS system?
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:42 PM   #34
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Could it be it was cheaper to manufacture?

Just curious, what is the cost difference on the average repair of electric PS system vs the hydraulic PS system?
Cheaper to mfg?

Cost to repair??

Who gives a s__? We're talking about handling & safety here! I want to know where dead ahead is on my steering wheel. I want some feedback as to when I'm turning and what the front wheels are doing and what position they're in.

Those are the questions we should be asking. And just what the hell century am I in anyhow? I'm going to the dealer's to buy a CAR, NOT a @$$ video game console!!
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Old 11-15-2011, 09:29 PM   #35
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Re: Told you's so!!

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Cheaper to mfg?

Cost to repair??

Who gives a s__? We're talking about handling & safety here! I want to know where dead ahead is on my steering wheel. I want some feedback as to when I'm turning and what the front wheels are doing and what position they're in.

Those are the questions we should be asking. And just what the hell century am I in anyhow? I'm going to the dealer's to buy a CAR, NOT a @$$ video game console!!
I agree, but usually if they compromise something like safety, it's because they are trying to save money. It's not right, but too many people love the money and profit over what is right and best for the consumer.
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:15 AM   #36
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I agree, but usually if they compromise something like safety, it's because they are trying to save money. It's not right, but too many people love the money and profit over what is right and best for the consumer.
So then it really is up to the consumer to correspond with auto mfgs and voice what they want in their cars, handling wise, options wise, etc. Problem is, 9 out of 10 consumers are indifferent to handling, good or bad! They wouldn't know a good steering ratio from a bad one or the different technologies of power steering.

And the rest of us that do appreciate a good drive are left with fewer and usually more expensive(unnecessarily so) options.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:11 PM   #37
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Re: Told you's so!!

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So then it really is up to the consumer to correspond with auto mfgs and voice what they want in their cars, handling wise, options wise, etc. Problem is, 9 out of 10 consumers are indifferent to handling, good or bad! They wouldn't know a good steering ratio from a bad one or the different technologies of power steering.

And the rest of us that do appreciate a good drive are left with fewer and usually more expensive(unnecessarily so) options.
Yep
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Old 11-17-2011, 06:51 AM   #38
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Yep
I really think the 1990s were the golden age of handling. (Most)Auto mfgs "got it" by then, and the electronics and automation and fly-by-wire crap we're seeing today hadn't been fully developed by then for consumer application. Heck, even the Civic of those years had a bonified wish-bone suspension in them!

I think I would feel safer on the road back then than I do now with all the cars today being reviewed with "numb steering" and "little feedback". That's a safety issue right there and they're mucking it up with all this automation and electronics. Come on! Keep it simple.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:53 AM   #39
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Re: Told you's so!!

Much of what's driving the transition to electric power steering is fuel economy requirements. The old school power steering used a parasitic hydraulic pump that was driven off the belt which sucked power from the engine all the time, and especially when steering at low speeds. Electric power steering could eliminate the pump and the hydraulic lines which reduces parasitic draw on the engine as well as the weight and space from those components.

Next, when the manufacturer's are required to implement stability control, that's a whole lot easier to do when you control the driver's ability to oversteer the car, when the computer can control the throttle, and when the computer can control the brakes. Plus with the throttle by wire you no longer need a separate cruse control servo and associated cabling, further reducing weight.

So some of this technology isn't driven to market by the bean counters or what's easiest to manufacture (although much of this technology does have a benefit from that aspect), but rather by government mandates. Yeah, that may not make you sleep any better, but ultimately it is for the better of the bulk population, and for those of us who may still know how to drive and want a car without all the technology or numb steering, we still have the option of buying older cars or new performance cars that have separate "performance oriented" modes which adjust steering feel, throttle response, and stability control aggressiveness.

-Rod
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:45 AM   #40
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shorod wrote:
Much of what's driving the transition to electric power steering is fuel economy requirements. The old school power steering used a parasitic hydraulic pump that was driven off the belt which sucked power from the engine all the time, and especially when steering at low speeds. Electric power steering could eliminate the pump and the hydraulic lines which reduces parasitic draw on the engine as well as the weight and space from those components.

Next, when the manufacturer's are required to implement stability control, that's a whole lot easier to do when you control the driver's ability to oversteer the car, when the computer can control the throttle, and when the computer can control the brakes. Plus with the throttle by wire you no longer need a separate cruse control servo and associated cabling, further reducing weight.

Railz in Green: Sho, Sho, hold on. You're preaching to the choir here! I know all of that. And greater fuel economy is no excuse to incorporate technologies that compromise my safety and that of others when in the driver seat.

Next thing you know they'll have cars with ZERO degrees camber/caster, ZERO SAI, perfectly straight toe within 1/10000 of a degree - and use COMPUTERS to simulate the effects of Caster & SAI. That's when I'll stop driving altogether! I don't want a computer simulating alignment physics, I want the alignment itself to straighten out my car - but then again, I'm old fashioned.

So some of this technology isn't driven to market by the bean counters or what's easiest to manufacture (although much of this technology does have a benefit from that aspect), but rather by government mandates. Yeah, that may not make you sleep any better, but ultimately it is for the better of the bulk population,

What does the "government" know about safe handling?? Explain how it is "better" for the general population. Does numb steering and minimal feedback make everyone so white-knuckled that they keep it under the PSL all the time when driving, or proceed around a corner slower than paint drying? Seriously I'm on bended knee with full doplar-radar and 150dB sensitivity shotgun microphones and tape recorders ready to hear this one!

and for those of us who may still know how to drive and want a car without all the technology or numb steering, we still have the option of buying older cars or new performance cars that have separate "performance oriented" modes which adjust steering feel, throttle response, and stability control aggressiveness.

-Rod

That's just roll-over mentality - as in, people just rolling over and accepting whatever products they're pedalled, whatever new regs the govt imposes.
Well I don't roll over, Sho. I like to stick things in the ears of those who need to hear it: Government, companies who sell the products, etc.

That's what you call revolution - not marching in the streets and occupying public parks and scaring away business for mom & pop stores next to stock exchanges! We've become so gullible Rod, and that's why this sh$%t's being pushed on us.
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Old 11-17-2011, 02:00 PM   #41
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Re: Told you's so!!

I think it's a stretch to suggest that numb steering compromises anyone's safety. I'd want to see numbers that clearly identify a tie between the steering feel and an increase in accidents. The technology that is more likely to be compromising safety is the smart phone/text messaging.

As for the government mandate, I'm referring to fuel economy and stability control mandates, not steering feel.

I happen to enjoy my modern cars with modern features and technology. I drive cars before I buy them to make sure I enjoy the way they drive, handle and feel. So does my wife. You know what, she happens to like her Lincoln with light, numb steering. She doesn't enjoy driving my SHO with firm steering and firm suspension. So, fortunately for her, not all cars are performance-oriented. Her first car was a 1995 Saturn SL with manual transmission, manual clutch, and even manual steering. When she traded it in for her 1999 Passat with manual transmission, one of the first things she commented on what how much easier it was to steer and how much better she liked that. Her next comment was how much more comfortable the seats were. She never commented on how much flatter it cornered, how much faster she could take corners, etc. Between her Saturn, Passat, Lincoln LS, and now MKZ she's never had an accident, even with the relatively numb steering of her most recent cars and 2 kids in the car.

Ultimately I don't see safety as an argument here, I do see choice as one though. There are still cars that offer the steering feel you like. You probably won't find many modern cars that lose the technology though, but that doesn't need to be a bad thing either.

At one time there were probably people that said the automobile had nothing to offer over a horse and buggy. There certainly were people that thought a gasoline automobile was an explosion waiting to happen, and those who thought there would only ever be a need for maybe 6 computers in the world. I'm glad people didn't roll over and listen to them either.

These are the types of discussions that make being human so enjoyable, everyone is entitled to their opinions and no one can tell someone else their opinion is wrong.

-Rod
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Old 11-17-2011, 04:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorod View Post
I think it's a stretch to suggest that numb steering compromises anyone's safety. I'd want to see numbers that clearly identify a tie between the steering feel and an increase in accidents. The technology that is more likely to be compromising safety is the smart phone/text messaging.

As for the government mandate, I'm referring to fuel economy and stability control mandates, not steering feel.

I happen to enjoy my modern cars with modern features and technology. I drive cars before I buy them to make sure I enjoy the way they drive, handle and feel. So does my wife. You know what, she happens to like her Lincoln with light, numb steering. She doesn't enjoy driving my SHO with firm steering and firm suspension. So, fortunately for her, not all cars are performance-oriented. Her first car was a 1995 Saturn SL with manual transmission, manual clutch, and even manual steering. When she traded it in for her 1999 Passat with manual transmission, one of the first things she commented on what how much easier it was to steer and how much better she liked that. Her next comment was how much more comfortable the seats were. She never commented on how much flatter it cornered, how much faster she could take corners, etc. Between her Saturn, Passat, Lincoln LS, and now MKZ she's never had an accident, even with the relatively numb steering of her most recent cars and 2 kids in the car.

Ultimately I don't see safety as an argument here, I do see choice as one though. There are still cars that offer the steering feel you like. You probably won't find many modern cars that lose the technology though, but that doesn't need to be a bad thing either.

At one time there were probably people that said the automobile had nothing to offer over a horse and buggy. There certainly were people that thought a gasoline automobile was an explosion waiting to happen, and those who thought there would only ever be a need for maybe 6 computers in the world. I'm glad people didn't roll over and listen to them either.

These are the types of discussions that make being human so enjoyable, everyone is entitled to their opinions and no one can tell someone else their opinion is wrong.

-Rod
Rod the reason I'm so empassioned about this is because - and i know I shouldn't publicize this - but I have trouble staying in my own lane! Literally, I'm all over the place. A car with a strong on center feel would lessen my tendency to wander and put others at danger, that's all. I'm afraid that cars with strong on center feel and quick steering wheel return to center are becoming scarce as hens teeth!
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