Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online!
Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! 
-
Latest | 0 Rplys
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Racing > Technical
Technical Discuss different strategies and theories of the racing aspect.
Reply Show Printable Version Show Printable Version | Email this Page Email this Page | Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-12-2005, 12:54 AM   #16
Lafora
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

http://www.auto-ware.com/ubbthreads/...n=0&page=0#267

This is a good read.

first half of ortiz's article will answer your question.
__________________
FOR SALE
1986 Corolla GTS, nardi steering wheel, TRD short shift, TRD 2 way LSD (new), SSR formula mesh....too much to list. Email for full list if interested
Lafora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2005, 09:58 PM   #17
ViperJ
AF Enthusiast
 
ViperJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Posts: 832
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via MSN to ViperJ
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

I got this from http://www.epinions.com/content_4158759044

Why doesn't FWD work?
Now the problem doing this in FWD is the fact that the front tires do the job of both turning AND driving. So you really can't afford to lose traction at the front. The other thing is that FWD cars do not naturally oversteer. They understeer at high speeds. Again, try the shopping cart. Instead of pushing from behind, try pulling the cart from the front. Pay attention to the direction the front wheels are facing in a curve and then try to pull harder in that direction. The cart will probably start skidding outwards and lose ability to hold on to a tight curve.

Typically, to get the the oversteer you want with FWD, that requires hard, short, quick braking. Some drivers and cars can do this with the brake pedal, but usually, this requires the e-brake. And of course, because you can't afford to completely lose traction because this will just send you out in a straight line to the outside of the curve, you need to make sure your entry angle is a little more shallow. It's very hard to chain drifts in FWD, because the rear axle is just giving you passive sliding friction, which slows you down (hence the name "a**-dragging"). Often, it also requires extra suspension tuning so that the rear suspension is harder than the front, and also some lower-traction tires in the rear. So FWD is always at a disadvantage to RWD in a race should you choose to drift because it has such a slow entry speed. Of course, as a general racing rule, what really matters is the line, and if you take the ideal line, you've got the fastest outcome whether you're drifting or gripping.
__________________
White 07 STI, Bone stock for now
ViperJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2005, 12:45 AM   #18
Zgringo
AF Fanatic
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bumfuck
Posts: 1,694
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The ideal setup is a car that has just enough weight on the front wheels to control the car, In other words almost all the weight transfered to the rear.
Good examples are the Funnies and AA/F dragsters.
Zgringo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2005, 11:55 AM   #19
2of9
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Inver Grove Heights, Minnesota
Posts: 1,630
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

FWD cars are much better than RWD cars in winter though!
__________________
"i told you it was third, I lengthen the injector pulse another millisec and tuned the NOS timer, and you'll run nines"

--2OF9--
(DSM team specialist) ;D
#808/1000
2of9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2005, 02:25 AM   #20
whmccormic21
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Antioch, Tennessee
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to whmccormic21
the source of my disdain for FWD is when i hear all these kids talking about taking their FWD cars out to go drifting. And first of all that is not drifting it is sliding out of control whereas drifting is a controlled loss of control with a set angle to be reached. not speeding up to 45mph and pulling the E-brake. if that was all it were than anyone could do it
whmccormic21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 09:22 AM   #21
EVOclipse
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: melbourne, Florida
Posts: 551
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to EVOclipse
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

The real reason you cant chain drifts in a FWD is because its to hard to control onces the car's weight is moving around in the back, Unlike RWD there is not throttle to modulate....and you cant just wait for the wheels to even out on there own, its just like the oversteer snapback you see on games like GT4, its a pendulum and its hard to stop/straighten out.



like the dreaded flatspin of top gun, although yes, sometimes you can prevent it from getting to the point of no return.
__________________
240sx, soon to be S13.5, future mods are wheels and hopefully paint and the rest of my conversion.

(96 eclipse RS 5-speed, magnaflow exhaust,chrome headers,cold air intake,denso iridium sparkplugs,new kumho tires )******EDIT totalled car now*******
EVOclipse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2005, 05:42 PM   #22
CassiesMan
AF Vendor
 
CassiesMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Colleyville, Texas
Posts: 5,322
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Send a message via AIM to CassiesMan
Re: Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EVOclipse
like the dreaded flatspin of top gun, although yes, sometimes you can prevent it from getting to the point of no return.
Yeah, but that was caused by flying htorugh a wake and not his drivetrain, lol. FWD is supposed to be better from a roll race. Less drivetrain loss. At least, thats my udnerstanding, not that gearing or power out put has ANYTHING to do with roll racing [/sarcasm]
__________________
2006 Redline Red Nissan 350Z Base
K&N|Falken
I am just that JDM tight, yo.
CassiesMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 03:03 PM   #23
LVApex
AF Regular
 
LVApex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 101
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperJ
I got this from http://www.epinions.com/content_4158759044

Why doesn't FWD work?
Now the problem doing this in FWD is the fact that the front tires do the job of both turning AND driving. So you really can't afford to lose traction at the front. The other thing is that FWD cars do not naturally oversteer. They understeer at high speeds. Again, try the shopping cart. Instead of pushing from behind, try pulling the cart from the front. Pay attention to the direction the front wheels are facing in a curve and then try to pull harder in that direction. The cart will probably start skidding outwards and lose ability to hold on to a tight curve.

Typically, to get the the oversteer you want with FWD, that requires hard, short, quick braking. Some drivers and cars can do this with the brake pedal, but usually, this requires the e-brake. And of course, because you can't afford to completely lose traction because this will just send you out in a straight line to the outside of the curve, you need to make sure your entry angle is a little more shallow. It's very hard to chain drifts in FWD, because the rear axle is just giving you passive sliding friction, which slows you down (hence the name "a**-dragging"). Often, it also requires extra suspension tuning so that the rear suspension is harder than the front, and also some lower-traction tires in the rear. So FWD is always at a disadvantage to RWD in a race should you choose to drift because it has such a slow entry speed. Of course, as a general racing rule, what really matters is the line, and if you take the ideal line, you've got the fastest outcome whether you're drifting or gripping.
Ya, who ever wrote that, has never driven a properly setup FWD car before.

The big problem with FWD from a track performance standpoint isnt how it handles (All cars follow the same laws of physics), but rather what happens when you start to apply throttle coming out of a corner.....

But any way, to quote my self from another thread on this
Quote:
See, the biggest problem with FWD is that as you start to apply throttle coming out of a turn the car tends to understeer more, where as with a RWD platform the car will tend to oversteer as you apply throttle. Theis problem with FWD becomes more and more of a problem as the chassis gets more power too... which is why you dont see FWD super cars. So with relitivly low powered cars, FWD, RWD AWD... makes little difference as far as lap times, assuming proper tuning and driving, but as you get in to the Higer HP cars, the problems with FWD become more and more apparent. This is also why people seem to think AWD handles so much better... thing is it doesn't (Most AWD cars acutally Understeer alot... Talk to the AWD open track drivers, and ask why they "hook" the turns...much to the annoyance of the rest of us), it just powers out of corners better.
LVApex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 10:51 PM   #24
DinanM3_S2
Scuderia Kimi
 
DinanM3_S2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,746
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

__________________
Kimi Raikkonen 2007 WDC
Scuderia Ferrari 2007 WCC

"I collect walnuts"
-Kimi Raikkonen on his hobbies outside of F1
DinanM3_S2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2006, 11:04 AM   #25
LVApex
AF Regular
 
LVApex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 101
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2
Seen it, and all it really proves is 1. BMW's traction control system is way too intrusive (Training wheels any one? but at least you can turn it off) and 2. she has little concept as to how to drive a FWD car to get the most out of it...


The only way your going to conclusivly show the differences between FWD RWD and AWD is if you make a test where all the cars have the same weight, wheel base, and Tire size/compound. other wise you are as much fighting the individual car MFG's design flaws as you are the cars drive train layout.
LVApex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2006, 08:19 AM   #26
nikita7
AF Regular
 
nikita7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Francisco, California
Posts: 172
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

Understeer is a very very very frustrating feature of FWD cars. My grand prix loves to do it every time I take turn a bit faster than usual. In the rain if I turn under moderate acceleration car stops turning and goes ... well across the lane I wanted to turn in forcing me to get off the gas. But the positive about it is that understeer is much more easier to manage than oversteer.
__________________
1990 TSI AWD.
JDM redtop 4G63T
4 bolt rear end
91 transmission
CF hood
No-name intake
Reverse glow gauges!
nikita7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2006, 08:52 AM   #27
immortal_omni
AF Newbie
 
immortal_omni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Burlington, Vermont
Posts: 19
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to immortal_omni Send a message via MSN to immortal_omni
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenp
although i have never even driven an all wheele drive sports car i would believe them to be the best of both worlds(yes ive drivenm them both and see a point for boooth to be favored ) from what i have heard and common physics laws although if all 3 cars have same flywheele horse weight and all else i bet the front wheel to win in most draging events ( until the power begins to exceed that of the traction circle once in 2 but if the power does exceed that of 2nd then it would be the rear wheel and the awd would have too much power chewed up through the drive to win in either case and obvioslly there are exceptions ie little too rev happy on the shift ect but equal driving gears and fly horse theses statements are thought to be true doesnt mean i like fwd more for that reason i prefer rwd for performance but fwd works as a daily driver
did you just say that you would pick a fwd to win in a drag race given everything is the same. going of my physics lessons, i would pick the fwd to LOSE. given everything is the same, i would bet the RWD to win only because the AWD, MIGHT have too much driveline loss but its initial acceleration might make up for that. given everything is the same, i would put money on the RWD, but thats just me
immortal_omni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2006, 05:12 PM   #28
Polygon
The Red Baron
 
Polygon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Alpine, Utah
Posts: 7,823
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Send a message via MSN to Polygon Send a message via Skype™ to Polygon
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Love
Why do people always say things like "a fwd car is not a true sports car" and "I would never want a fwd car"?
This is because uneducated people equate FWD with understeer, which is a myth. If FWD is bad for performance someone needs to tell Alfa Romeo, who hass been using FWD cars in racing and beating RWD BMWs.
Polygon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 02:55 PM   #29
slideways...
AF Enthusiast
 
slideways...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 3,277
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Why the bias against front wheel drive cars?

and no one told honda either. integras beat 325s all the time in SCCA. also there are a couple crx's that destroy everything in time attacks in japan. the fastest time attack car for a while in all of japan was a crx. but in order to make a truly fast FWD track car, it needs to be set up with a super stiff ass end so the rear tires slip at the same time as the front. and a wider track helps too. although these examples exist, its far easier and cheaper to make a RWD car handle, accelerate, brake, and do everything else well than any other setup.


btw, for all of you who think you need a FWD car in the winter and snow, you just need to learn how to drive. i drove my lowered 240sx around all last winter and never crashed, spun, got stuck, or anything. no abs, no traction control, RWD, lowered, some basic M+S tires, and thats it. in minnesota.
__________________


Rice Police #1. dont argue with me just because you are a riceboy and/or have sand in your vagina. i am superior. and i am smarter than you. end of story.
slideways... is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD


Bookmarks
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Racing > Technical

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:34 PM.

Community Participation Guidelines | How to use your User Control Panel

Powered by: vBulletin | Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
 
 
no new posts