NOT the end of my '93 metro...Life after death! RINGS

[DOCTORBILL]

OK ! All is well in Ring Land....

I did as you said and they came out quite easily.

You see, every time I ever read anything about rings (I read my car Manuals),
they admonish one to be careful not to break the rings as they are brittle and
fragile.

Rubbish! These rings are quite flexible. The top two rings came out nicely
using the ring expander. Granted I haven't tried to flex them more than just to
get them out.

But the oil rings are very flexible. Sharp as a razor on the outer edges.

ALSO - how neat! There is a slot behind the oil ring that goes thru to
the inside of the piston skirt on two sides.
That would allow oil splashing around to get to the oil ring and keep it wet...
Cute. Engineering at it's finest....

Man, the ring slots are full of carbon and crap! I see now why one must use
an old broken ring to scrape the stuff out!

Can I soak the piston in a can of Gasoline or would that screw up the wrist
pin...?

I have an Air Compressor - that will help to blow the crap out of those slots.

Wish I could brass-wire polish the top of the piston - but I'm not supposed to scratch it.

DoctorBill

BTW - I was under the impression that the crank-shaft splashed into the oil at the
bottom of the oil pan to keep lubricated. Can't happen in this engine since the oil pan
has a metal plate that covers the oil - big hole in the middle of the plate.
I'll take a picture later to show everyone.

How do the rod bearings and wrist pins get oiled? Is oil squirted on them by some vent
or oil hole I don't know about?

[stamar]

hey doc I would have responded earlier but the forum is giving me a serious case of log off in the middle of a post.

Anyhow, you seem like a very intelligent person so Im going to give you credit for figuring out whats best in your situation.

Ok lets accept both of these things for this situation.

Doc : rebuild the heads

Stamar : drive it off a cliff and buy a new one.

Ok my point is that way more people are in my situation. I think the average person should just figure out the used car market better.

I cant say exactly what the used car market is like in any area. But i suggest learning it before learning to hone your cylinder walls. I think that skill saves you a lot more money over your life.

[DOCTORBILL]

Well, OK....

I guess that this particular thread is for those who want to fix their vehicles....

Why not start a thread on the finer points of the used car market and how to
get along in it? I'm sure there are a lot of folk who agree with your methodology.

Good hunting...!

DoctorBill

BTW - check your browser and make sure it can set cookies. I have mine to definitely
allow this forum to set cookies.

[DOCTORBILL]

The Pistons are out ! I scratched their number on the side skirt below the rings
to identify them later... They all have an arrow pointing to the left at the top of the
piston facing the engine as you see it.

I took all three out and the rings are out and I am trying to get the carbon
deposits off the top of the pistons. Like black cement!

I know I'm not supposed to scratch the tops of the pistons, but I have scratched
them to some extent in trying to pick this damned hard carbon off. Should I emery
cloth the scratches away...when I am ready to place the pistons back in the cylinders ?

Am soaking the pistons in Gasoline after I had sprayed the carbon and oil off the
piston ring slots with spray Brake Cleaner..

Here is what my cylinders look like after I washed them out with Brake Cleaner Spray:







You can see the clean paper towels I wrapped around the crankshaft piston
rod bearing surfaces.

Now comes the honing - someone tell me what to expect, please.

Does honing make a hideous grinding, scratching noise?

How long will it take for each cylinder? I'll squirt ATF as I hone....

What should it look like? Should the cylinder surface be silver?

Once done honing, I will place a new piston ring halfway down the cylinder to check
the ring space where it comes back together.

How can I measure that space w/o special tools? Make a clay impression? ????

Was thinking of pushing a piece of kid's clay into the ends of the ring inside the
cylinder, pulling it out and measuring the impression with my calipers - Huh!?

DoctorBill

[sbiddle]

Stamar, you couldn't be more wrong. This IS the forum for fixing Metros, not dumping them. DoctorBill will be a better person for having done this. Think of the confidence gained. Is there a value placed on that? I say Priceless! Sure it may be a break even proposition as far as the bucks go, but he will so much more enjoy his "new" metro.

[DOCTORBILL]

To my way of thinking - everybody who has commented about a used engine price versus
getting the Head rebuilt and Rings replaced (oneself!) are dead wrong!

First of all - we are talking about a used engine for maybe $350 - $400. USED.
It may have 60,000 to 130,000 miles on it. You will not know what condition
the valves, rings, etc are in.... You are gambling that all is well inside that sucker!

If I do what I am doing and it costs me $400, then I have new valves, rings,
piston rod bearings, gaskets, etc....

So, I think one is ahead of the game by replacing these main items versus having
a used engine put in and having to do it all over again in maybe 100,000 miles!

I know what is in my engine now. If I screwed up the job, well then that's my
doing.

But a replacement used engine is just that - used. However many miles used
when you put it in.....

I am supposing that replacing the Head and Rings is not as tough as replacing
the entire engine!

DoctorBill

[nonewcars]

On this little car, you may be right Dr. Bill. However If I could put a replacement engine in the car and get another 100K, I might go that route. The big question is can you get that many more miles. I have a 99 escort that my daughter drives. The head gasket blew on it at 150k miles and she wound up driving it too long with it blown and locked up the motor. I opted to get a used motor from a reputable shop I had done business with before for $700. It was much easier to just pull the motor and drop another one in. The intake, fuel rail, and exhaust manifold were already attached. Only took me one evening and a saturday to do this. So far so good. After all your posts on the geo rebuild, I believe I can do this as well and will probably opt to do that instead of risking getting a good used jdm engine. I have priced the regular canadian version of the motor and have only found one locally for $650 dollars. They could not or would not give me the mileage on it. I found a 91 automatic with only 29K miles on it for about $600, but I would have to do some creative mechanics to get it to fit since mine is a manual transmission. Thanks for the pictures. This helps me see what your doing and it does not look to difficult so far. Good luck.

[Crvett69]

couple things. first to check the ring gap buy yourself a set of feeler gauges, should be less than $7 at most auto stores. you can use piston upside down to push ring into cylinder to make sure its square. to hone, if you have a haynes or chiltons metro manual it will tell you how and show what it looks like after your done. on the used jdm engines they are supposed to have 60000 kilometers on them. i always check the oil cap and make sure its clean inside and no sludge before i buy one. of the 20 or so i have installed i have yet to have a bad one. ones i buy cost me $345 and come with a 1 year warrenty. takes me 4 1/2 hours to pull the engine and tranny out, swap the parts over and drop it back in. takes a lot longer than that to rebuild one when you take all the cleaning into account and the running around to get head rebuilt and buy the parts. since i have my own shop i figured it was a lot more cost effective for me to put the jdm engines in for the customers and so far they have all been happy

[nonewcars]

Excellent Crvett69. Guess I might try the JDM engine after all when my oil sucking motor dies. One question however is why do you need to pull the tranny? I replaced the motor in a 99 ford escort without pulling the transaxle even when the haynes manual said to do so. Can't you just remove the bolts that hold the tranny to the block and remove the flywheel bolts and pull it out? Or is it just easier to pull the tranny with it?

[Crvett69]

if you have a 5 speed there isn't enough room to slide the engine ahead far enough to clear the clutch. you could unbolt the tranny mount and maybe side it back far enough to pull the engine but i find its just easier to pull the 3 main engine/tranny mount bolts and take it out as a assembly. lot easier to line everything up and bolt it together with it on the ground. i tip motor on timing belt end with flywheel up and then set tranny on from top, much easier, usually just drops in place. on the cars with automatic its easier to pull just the engine and it only has to seperate from the tranny about a inch to clear. if you don't have quite enough room just pull the damper pulley

[idmetro]

nonewcars:
Heed crvett69's advice regarding pulling the engine and tranny together on 5 speed cars. It is physically possible to change the clutch without pulling the transmission but I can attest to it taking much longer and being a VERY tight fit doing it without removing the transmission from the car. It would have saved me hours of aggravation (and some skin/blood) had I pulled the two together and changed the clutch outside the car instead.

[kaufeetime]

Make sure that you remove all gasket material on the motor and pan . Don't leave a speck. Replacing a gasket, its important that you place the bolts through the holes of the gasket. If not you WILL have an oil leak. Just something that I learned the hard way.
kaufeetime

[DOCTORBILL]

I am waiting for my piston rod bearings to arrive at Schucks.

Where is my help......?

Nobody answers my questions?

What is honing the cylinders like? How long do I hone? Is is noisy? Grinding?
How do I know when I'm done? What will I see? What should I not do?

The Chilton Manual says squat! Completely useless....
I have been waiting for someone to give me some information!
If this is all one way, why should I bother to post anything?

Come on guys! - what should I expect with this honing process using the three- stone honer?

All you afficianados have done this, why aren't you on here telling me about it?!

What was your experience like when you honed the cylinders?

DoctorBill

[geozukigti]

Sorry bill When I hone, I usually move it up and down the cylinder fairly quickly with the drill on low speed for 10-15 seconds, or until the glaze is gone off of the cylinder walls. Try to make the scratches at a 45-60 degree angle. You won't hear any grinding noise, that's what the honing lube is for.

[idmetro]

DOC;
Here's a link to a site discussing cylinder honing http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%2...efinishing.htm
and one showing some pictures of cylinders after honing http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstu...ne_rebuild.htm and finally somebody who has taken it so far as to get SEM photos of a honed cylinder http://www.vms.ei.tum.de/publ/pdf/ci...%20cylinder%22
There is some noise approximately like working on one of the old pedal type whetstones or sharpening a knife on a whetstone but somewhat increased due to the speed of the drill. My last honing expierence was years ago done outside when the temp was below zero; I could only run the hone for a couple of strokes before the oil would gel then i would have to clean out the cylinder and start again with fresh oil; it turned out fine. I'd clean everything up with an oil based solvent and don't forget the assembly lube and bring your engine back to life with regular oil not synthetic. Synthetic is too slippery for breaking in an engine and getting the rings to "seat" in the cylinders.