The Official: "There's no such thing as a dumb question about the McLaren F1" thread

[tortoise]

Originally Posted by Sami Aaltonen

The videoclips thread has been couple of posts about F1's brake noise. That very clearly heard whistling.

Does anyone know why the noise is there?
What it makes up?
The an orginal brakes are Brembos, so they shouldn't never be any bad brakes.
Does the noise couse by the desing of the suspension/chassis? Or brake disc?

And second; the DA book explainded they didn't get the carbon brakes work so they had to sedlle of down steel discs.
Today; many sports cars has carbon-ceramic brakes, is it how much different case than what McLaren tryed get work back 20 years ago?

And third; has anyone uptaded his F1 with carbon-ceramic brakes, changed the steel discs to the carbon discs?
No I don't mean GTR's, the F1 roadcars.

Thanks for the answers!

It's common for a hard brake pad to squeal against iron discs.
The problem for the F1 brake pad compound is that you need a compound that, in theory, will not fade under repeated 200+mph stops. This means a "hard" pad. At the same time, the F1's design ethos was/is for a comfortable, relaxing, civilised car - one on which the brakes would not normally squeal.
They compromised with a Pagid RS4-2 "Blue" pad. You can find the various Pagid pad characteristics on their website:
http://www.braketechnology.com/racecharacteristics.html

When developing the F1, the team tried to use "carbon-carbon" brake discs. These would have been the same (essentially; there will have been slight differences in resin and fibre) as on the Formula One cars. Their advantage is that they weight approx 1/4 as much as equivalent iron discs.
The problem with carbon-carbon discs is that, when they are cold, their coefficient of friction is too low to create much stopping force. In the morning, you would hop into your road car, drive to the end of your driveway, and brake lightly for traffic - except that, when you pressed the brake pedal, the pads would not bite and the car would carry on into the street. When cold, c-c brakes do not function. Despite spending huge amounts of time and effort to find a way around this problem, the F1 team failed to do so. Once they're hot, c-c discs are very good, but they have to be hot. This is why, during the installation lap of a Formula One race, the drivers run with the brakes partially on, to get heat into them.
The "carbon-ceramic" disc, as made by SGL and Brembo and used on some Porsche and Ferrari road cars, is not the same as carbon-carbon. They both use carbon fibres to hold the disc together, but the carbon-carbon uses an epoxy-type resin to bind it, whilst the carbon-ceramic is bound by silicon carbide.
The carbon-ceramic disc has a bit of a low-temp problem, but with the use of a brake servo it is manageable.
Carbon-ceramic discs weigh 1/2 as much as the equivalent iron, or 2x as much as carbon-carbon.

[hurstg01]

Originally Posted by tortoise

It's common for a hard brake pad to squeal against iron discs.
The problem for the F1 brake pad compound is that you need a compound that, in theory, will not fade under repeated 200+mph stops. This means a "hard" pad. At the same time, the F1's design ethos was/is for a comfortable, relaxing, civilised car - one on which the brakes would not normally squeal.
They compromised with a Pagid RS4-2 "Blue" pad. You can find the various Pagid pad characteristics on their website:
http://www.braketechnology.com/racecharacteristics.html

When developing the F1, the team tried to use "carbon-carbon" brake discs. These would have been the same (essentially; there will have been slight differences in resin and fibre) as on the Formula One cars. Their advantage is that they weight approx 1/4 as much as equivalent iron discs.
The problem with carbon-carbon discs is that, when they are cold, their coefficient of friction is too low to create much stopping force. In the morning, you would hop into your road car, drive to the end of your driveway, and brake lightly for traffic - except that, when you pressed the brake pedal, the pads would not bite and the car would carry on into the street. When cold, c-c brakes do not function. Despite spending huge amounts of time and effort to find a way around this problem, the F1 team failed to do so. Once they're hot, c-c discs are very good, but they have to be hot. This is why, during the installation lap of a Formula One race, the drivers run with the brakes partially on, to get heat into them.
The "carbon-ceramic" disc, as made by SGL and Brembo and used on some Porsche and Ferrari road cars, is not the same as carbon-carbon. They both use carbon fibres to hold the disc together, but the carbon-carbon uses an epoxy-type resin to bind it, whilst the carbon-ceramic is bound by silicon carbide.
The carbon-ceramic disc has a bit of a low-temp problem, but with the use of a brake servo it is manageable.
Carbon-ceramic discs weigh 1/2 as much as the equivalent iron, or 2x as much as carbon-carbon.

[Sami Aaltonen]

And next question is familar to me, but I haven't time to search the forum trhought this moment, so I trust you friends here and ask this this Thread.
F-forum.fi site were asked did Mercedes used to develop their CLK GTR with this McLaren's GTR?


This is familar case, but for sure I can't comment on that Finnish F1 Forum before I ask it here. Hope you understand!

[Sami Aaltonen]

Originally Posted by tortoise

It's common for a hard brake pad to squeal against iron discs.
The problem for the F1 brake pad compound is that you need a compound that, in theory, will not fade under repeated 200+mph stops. This means a "hard" pad. At the same time, the F1's design ethos was/is for a comfortable, relaxing, civilised car - one on which the brakes would not normally squeal.
They compromised with a Pagid RS4-2 "Blue" pad. You can find the various Pagid pad characteristics on their website:
http://www.braketechnology.com/racecharacteristics.html

When developing the F1, the team tried to use "carbon-carbon" brake discs. These would have been the same (essentially; there will have been slight differences in resin and fibre) as on the Formula One cars. Their advantage is that they weight approx 1/4 as much as equivalent iron discs.
The problem with carbon-carbon discs is that, when they are cold, their coefficient of friction is too low to create much stopping force. In the morning, you would hop into your road car, drive to the end of your driveway, and brake lightly for traffic - except that, when you pressed the brake pedal, the pads would not bite and the car would carry on into the street. When cold, c-c brakes do not function. Despite spending huge amounts of time and effort to find a way around this problem, the F1 team failed to do so. Once they're hot, c-c discs are very good, but they have to be hot. This is why, during the installation lap of a Formula One race, the drivers run with the brakes partially on, to get heat into them.
The "carbon-ceramic" disc, as made by SGL and Brembo and used on some Porsche and Ferrari road cars, is not the same as carbon-carbon. They both use carbon fibres to hold the disc together, but the carbon-carbon uses an epoxy-type resin to bind it, whilst the carbon-ceramic is bound by silicon carbide.
The carbon-ceramic disc has a bit of a low-temp problem, but with the use of a brake servo it is manageable.
Carbon-ceramic discs weigh 1/2 as much as the equivalent iron, or 2x as much as carbon-carbon.

Absolutely superb, thank you very much!
I knew the problems on carbon brakes and the problems what McLaren faced during the test program, and that's why I asked the differences. Thanks, this is very helpfull.
I had doubts that todays carbon-ceramic brakes are a bit different what McLaren tryed to get it work well. Now I know it finally much better. Thanks!

Tortoise; may I ask have you had a close relationship with McLaren F1 or why on earth you know things so well?

[hurstg01]

Sami, some info here

[simmypam]

Originally Posted by Sami Aaltonen

Absolutely superb, thank you very much!
I knew the problems on carbon brakes and the problems what McLaren faced during the test program, and that's why I asked the differences. Thanks, this is very helpfull.
I had doubts that todays carbon-ceramic brakes are a bit different what McLaren tryed to get it work well. Now I know it finally much better. Thanks!

Tortoise; may I ask have you had a close relationship with McLaren F1 or why on earth you know things so well?

Some of the information is in the public domain. Some could come from experience.

Also, a lot of good info is available on pistonheads. Over there, a member named Flemke has discussed many things about the car, including the issues with the brakes. He spent a lot of time investigating the various options. I believe he even disconnected the servo on his Porsche CGT to see what the Silicon Carbide Ceramics felt like unassisted. I don't think it passed his test; I don't remember exactly why, but it was probably because there was not enough feel, bad low temperature bite.

A few months ago he had put on new, stiffer calipers and slotted rotors. That helped some. Apparently there is some treatment that you can now do to 'true' carbon rotors to help with low temperature 'bite'. He was a week or two away from trying those, but he then had his accident.

He posted a picture of the carbon rotor, here:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...176.80047&nmt=

Peruse the threads. Good Stuff.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...=0&f=&t=116008
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...=0&f=&t=116539
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...23&h=&t=226933
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...%204)%20&mid=0

[Sami Aaltonen]

Originally Posted by hurstg01

Sami, some info here

Thanks!

[Sami Aaltonen]

Originally Posted by simmypam

Some of the information is in the public domain. Some could come from experience.

Also, a lot of good info is available on pistonheads. Over there, a member named Flemke has discussed many things about the car, including the issues with the brakes. He spent a lot of time investigating the various options. I believe he even disconnected the servo on his Porsche CGT to see what the Silicon Carbide Ceramics felt like unassisted. I don't think it passed his test; I don't remember exactly why, but it was probably because there was not enough feel, bad low temperature bite.

A few months ago he had put on new, stiffer calipers and slotted rotors. That helped some. Apparently there is some treatment that you can now do to 'true' carbon rotors to help with low temperature 'bite'. He was a week or two away from trying those, but he then had his accident.

He posted a picture of the carbon rotor, here:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...176.80047&nmt=

Peruse the threads. Good Stuff.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...=0&f=&t=116008
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...=0&f=&t=116539
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...23&h=&t=226933
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=375461&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Flemke%2 0-%20Is%20this%20your%20McLaren?%20(Vol%204)%20&mid= 0

OK, have to work those out later do today. Thanks!

[Sami Aaltonen]

I've got a new question some Finnish car forum about F1.

Some writer asked what changes were done when F1 was sold to US?
So I think it's best to ask it this Thread?

He has readed somewhere that the company which made the the F1's legal to US roads was Ameritechina.
What they did to the cars, what changes?

Not like this or was it?!

[PatrickT82]

that is awful yes

[McF1]

Well that american McLaren is just awful...

I wonder if the Mercedes owned McLaren had any impact of the development of the actual McLaren F1 GTR 1997. Longer overhangs and larger wing for instance.

As this is the thread dedicated to the questions, I wondered if anybody would be interested in having a thread (if not yet existing) gathering the qualifying and race results of the GTR at Le Mans? By the way, if my memory is right I believe JJ Lehto always set the fatest time of any McLaren in qualifyings. Sami can confirm I think!

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by McF1

I wonder if the Mercedes owned McLaren had any impact of the development of the actual McLaren F1 GTR 1997. Longer overhangs and larger wing for instance.

I'd say there was no direct impact as it was in 1998 that Daimler-Benz bought the 40% share of McLaren, which it now has sold back to other McLaren share holders. And 1996-97 MB had their own CLK-GTR project going on and they used the 11R as a test mule for that. So I'd say the F1 GTR had the impact on MB, not the other way.

[Peloton25]

We may have covered this one before but I could not locate the answer. Have we established the source for the side marker lamp on the F1?



>8^)
ER

[Le Man]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

We may have covered this one before but I could not locate the answer. Have we established the source for the side marker lamp on the F1?



>8^)
ER

Vauxhall astra mk1/2 and some cavaliers. These were made by Hella and also Rubberlite, the same company that produced the front indicator/side light (front wheel drive Lotus Elan)

A clear version can be obtained as used by Flemke on his unique F1 as per this link

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-A...item4cfad4a8ac

[Peloton25]

See - I just new someone here named Le Man would know.

>8^)
ER