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Old 08-22-2003, 03:03 PM   #46
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Re: not feeling V-Tech

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Originally Posted by whiteracer
I'm out to prove that previous statement as wrong as i can.
and like MOST all other SOHC fan you will prolly nvr do anything impressive, give up and buy a dohc, blow it up, or just keep talkin about how you are goin to build up a sohc but nvr do it. that's just the way i see it around here, people always talk about building one up but they don't ever do it becuae they realized that it makes much more since to just swap out motors, that's way most people do it, they aren't jumping on any bandwagon, they just was realiable power for cheap. i know of one person who was gonna build up a sohc, he ownes a shop in fl and he eventually just took it to the track with a 100 shot and blew it up and put his build, and boosted ls/vtec in.

this is more for silver than anyone, caue you too will prolly nvr break into the 12's with you sohc. sry
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:05 PM   #47
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Re: Re: not feeling V-Tech

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Originally Posted by 95civicman
and like MOST all other SOHC fan you will prolly nvr do anything impressive, give up and buy a dohc, blow it up, or just keep talkin about how you are goin to build up a sohc but nvr do it. that's just the way i see it around here, people always talk about building one up but they don't ever do it becuae they realized that it makes much more since to just swap out motors, that's way most people do it, they aren't jumping on any bandwagon, they just was realiable power for cheap. i know of one person who was gonna build up a sohc, he ownes a shop in fl and he eventually just took it to the track with a 100 shot and blew it up and put his build, and boosted ls/vtec in.

this is more for silver than anyone, caue you too will prolly nvr break into the 12's with you sohc. sry
LMAO! You're more ignorant than PWman is.

But you know what, you're right about me, I won't ever break into the 12's. You know why? That's not my goal, drag and straight lines is for people that don't know to handle their car. I auto-X, if you didn't read above, the domiating cars there are the ones with the LEAST amount of power. I'm not trying to build some faster than everyone rocket, but what I do with mine WILL get me to the top of what I do. Give up and buy a DOHC, why? Because you say so, because I should believe that you are right? Well you couldn't be anymore wrong. I can bet you the best B swap out there that I'd be throwing away my $$$ if I ever swapped my more with what I do with my car. And I'm not kidding about that whether you think it's true or not. Willing to shake on that deal? I didn't think so.

Obviously you have no respect for Hondas let alone cars in general if your answer is "give and swap to a DOHC." That's a pretty lame excuse, and I know many B-series owners that would agree with me on that, and even more D-series builders that will prove you dead wrong. Keep posting trash, because frankly, that's all it is.Get rid of your hatorade and get some Red Bull. It'll give you wings wich is more than I can say about your SOHC vs. DOHC theory.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:18 PM   #48
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not feeling V-Tech

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Originally Posted by PWMAN
OK first off I never said a swap was necessary in ALL situations.
Secondly, a good turbo kit costs about 3500 ''on the spot'' just like a swap would. Actually, a B18b1 swap costs about 2K, then you can always buy mounts, etc later.
My simple point was that the B18B1 swap (not all B series) is worth the effort and money to swap in, simply because you can get 300 WHP on the stock internals-which is NOT possible on any D series. Even after you build the D you would be lucky to get 300 WHP. After awhile you can save up(while making 300 WHP on stock internals) to build the engine and make 400 + WHP or whatever you want.
I understand your point, but you still haven't obviously researched it, thus it's incorrect.

First off, if your paying $3500 for a turbo kit (which would be the Edelbrock for that price) then you're getting way ripped off, bottom line there. I can custom build a better setup than that for $1k LESS that'll still be as reliable, and put out the same power figures, 172hp. Secondly, cheaper even if you go with a B18B1? No way! Because first the cost of the motor and swap (at least $2k like you mentioned) PLUS about another $1500 just to bring it up to the 170hp level of the turbo'ed D motor, in N/A form for the B18. You come out at the same, if not spending MORE than you needed to. For one, cams alone will run you at least $800-$900 since you gotta get TWO of them, and you're only gaining 25-30 hp at the most from that if even that much (doubtful). But you're missing the point that people aren't always going for max gains from a motor. Plain and simple, to match a B18B1 to do N/A what a D can do at it's max, will cost you about the same amount of $$$. Only once you surpass that is the B a clear winner. Like I said though, if you're gonna do that, might as well swap to an H first thing as you're already at 200hp in STOCK form off the bat, and for a LESS cost than getting a B18 swap and building it to the H22's 200hp point.
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Old 08-22-2003, 06:00 PM   #49
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Re: Re: Re: not feeling V-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic
LMAO! You're more ignorant than PWman is.

But you know what, you're right about me, I won't ever break into the 12's. You know why? That's not my goal, drag and straight lines is for people that don't know to handle their car. I auto-X, if you didn't read above, the domiating cars there are the ones with the LEAST amount of power. I'm not trying to build some faster than everyone rocket, but what I do with mine WILL get me to the top of what I do. Give up and buy a DOHC, why? Because you say so, because I should believe that you are right? Well you couldn't be anymore wrong. I can bet you the best B swap out there that I'd be throwing away my $$$ if I ever swapped my more with what I do with my car. And I'm not kidding about that whether you think it's true or not. Willing to shake on that deal? I didn't think so.

Obviously you have no respect for Hondas let alone cars in general if your answer is "give and swap to a DOHC." That's a pretty lame excuse, and I know many B-series owners that would agree with me on that, and even more D-series builders that will prove you dead wrong. Keep posting trash, because frankly, that's all it is.Get rid of your hatorade and get some Red Bull. It'll give you wings wich is more than I can say about your SOHC vs. DOHC theory.


ok so you are goin for autocross, and that's cool and all but incase you forgot the arguement was first SOHC vs. DOHC then it progessed to if the d16 could be faster than a b-series ( since people remembered the DOHC zc is a d-series). which is why i quoted the other guy and not you. and yes the d series is fast but with alot of work, where as a b-series can be faster with around the same or less amount of money and stay more reliable in the process. you should try some of that research you are so fond of since you too were arguing about which is faster and "What the d16 is capable of" or the "10 second d15" and not what engine is best for handling and auto-X
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Old 08-22-2003, 06:11 PM   #50
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not feeling V-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic
1) I can custom build a better setup than that for $1k LESS that'll still be as reliable, and put out the same power figures, 172hp. Secondly, cheaper even if you go with a B18B1? No way! Because first the cost of the motor and swap (at least $2k like you mentioned) PLUS about another $1500 just to bring it up to the 170hp level of the turbo'ed D motor, in N/A form for the B18. You come out at the same, if not spending MORE than you needed to.



2) Like I said though, if you're gonna do that, might as well swap to an H first thing as you're already at 200hp in STOCK form off the bat, and for a LESS cost than getting a B18 swap and building it to the H22's 200hp point.

1. so you have 172hp boosting 7psi(which is pushin it) with the dx, but for 1000bux more (2g's for the b18 plus 1500 for the custom turbo setup) you can be at 240hp boostin 10 psi on the stock bottom end and ok tuning(i've seen 12 psi on really good tuning) since 1psi= roughly 10hp.




2. see i dunno about this either because you gonna think 3 g's for the motor and like what? 600 for the mounts?? so then you can do like i said above, but it wouldn't be as reliable, tho is would make 40 more hp. i guess it's what you want with that one, great reliability or bragging rights, or a realible motor and a turbo.
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Old 08-22-2003, 08:54 PM   #51
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Re: Re: Re: Re: not feeling V-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95civicman
ok so you are goin for autocross, and that's cool and all but incase you forgot the arguement was first SOHC vs. DOHC then it progessed to if the d16 could be faster than a b-series ( since people remembered the DOHC zc is a d-series). which is why i quoted the other guy and not you. and yes the d series is fast but with alot of work, where as a b-series can be faster with around the same or less amount of money and stay more reliable in the process. you should try some of that research you are so fond of since you too were arguing about which is faster and "What the d16 is capable of" or the "10 second d15" and not what engine is best for handling and auto-X
Well see, you initially targeted ME personally with when you said:

Quote:
this is more for silver than anyone, caue you too will prolly nvr break into the 12's with you sohc. sry
when you didn't even bother to READ what I stated the goals for my car are several posts ago. I mean seriously, don't pipe into stuff you can't hang with till you read ALL posts involved. I did my reserach, you DIDN't, and that's clear as day to anyone reading this. Have fun trying to climb out of the hole you dug for yourself there.

It's so sad when people like you ASSume people want to get power out of their car for drag perposes. Believe me, there are FAR more more better things to do with a car than just that. Not everyone has a 12 second goal in mind. Not everyone is aimming for 200+ hp from their motor. But I'm telling you straight up the plans for my car personally will be MUCH cheaper than a swap would ever get me, and I'm talking a swap with NO OTHER engine mods done to it.
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Old 08-22-2003, 09:04 PM   #52
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: not feeling V-Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic
.

First off, if your paying $3500 for a turbo kit (which would be the Edelbrock for that price) then you're getting way ripped off, bottom line there. I can custom build a better setup than that for $1k LESS that'll still be as reliable, and put out the same power figures, 172hp. Secondly, cheaper even if you go with a B18B1? No way! Because first the cost of the motor and swap (at least $2k like you mentioned) PLUS about another $1500 just to bring it up to the 170hp level of the turbo'ed D motor, in N/A form for the B18. You come out at the same, if not spending MORE than you needed to. For one, cams alone will run you at least $800-$900 since you gotta get TWO of them, and you're only gaining 25-30 hp at the most from that if even that much (doubtful). But you're missing the point that people aren't always going for max gains from a motor. Plain and simple, to match a B18B1 to do N/A what a D can do at it's max, will cost you about the same amount of $$$. Only once you surpass that is the B a clear winner. Like I said though, if you're gonna do that, might as well swap to an H first thing as you're already at 200hp in STOCK form off the bat, and for a LESS cost than getting a B18 swap and building it to the H22's 200hp point.
OK I see your point about the turbo kit price...but-
You don't need to spend that 1500 to bring the B18B1 up to 170 hp. The only reason to swap to a B1 is to turbo. If you are going N/A then you are going to want VTEC.
The stock cams on a B18B1 are excellent for spooling the turbo. BTW, aftermarket cams are 400/pair-not 900.
I wouldn't swap for an H, they need built before you turbo them too much.
OK, I'll sum it up here-The best HP per dollar would be a B18B1 swap with turbo running 12 PSI-you would make 275 WHP and spend 8K MAX. Compare that to a D16Z6, built and turboing 18-20 PSI you are going to make about the same HP-275 WHP. But the B hasn't even been built yet, so there is much more potential. And like mentioned before, the D16 will have less torque, so even if it makes the same HP the B will still smoke it.
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Old 08-22-2003, 10:35 PM   #53
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Lightbulb

hey i have a great idea why dont we move are arguments to a diff post and get back to the kid with the original post
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Old 08-22-2003, 10:52 PM   #54
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why do you people keep on twisting around people's post into your own. i was simply asking why i am not really feeling the vtec and now it's a discussion about swaps. i would like to thank everyone who answered my question. and to the rest please stop the pointless arguing.
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Old 08-22-2003, 11:33 PM   #55
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ok just to get myself out of the preverbial 'hole', i read every single one of your post and you say nothing about handling or auto-x, (except for when you were talkin to me, the closest you came to that was sayin that the b-series swap wasn't in your goal because of budget. so plz correct me incase i've missed something.
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Old 08-23-2003, 01:47 AM   #56
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not to get into an argument here

this is for you guys who say d series is expensive to gain hp out of.....d15b2 total cost of build.....$1g including the zex kit. i have no timeslip while on the bottle as it was recently aquired and i have yet to make a pass on it. and i do agree somewhere i saw a post up there about turbo on a d for under $1g.....i did one for $400. anything is possible for any angine givin you have the money....or you have the resources to build it. as for me....i work at a machine shop. i have the resources to build. also i have acces to a cad program, even furthering my ability to create designes to specifically up the power on the engine. im not gonna argue the fact that either d or b or h is a better motor or a worse for that matter. i myself have owned a b16 as well as an ls/vtec. my thoughts over this all. i would rather have a crv/vtec under my hood but i have been doing my best to either keep up or beat the oh so beautifull b series motors with the single. even though it seems like this build costed not much which it didnt, i did have to spend long hours designing items to maximise the potential of the motor the cheapest way possible as machine shops dont pay much to keep up with a house and my car at the same time. i also noticed womone comented on reliability at a higher hp figure....i totaly agree. 200whp out of a b series definatly will not need the maintenance like my d will need. every weekend i look over my car making sure everything is in the correct working order. it is becoming a pain to do so. but i will not switch to a bseries until i can affor either a crv/vtec or another ls/vtec. on another note how do you guys feel about the crv/vtec? i have never personaly been able to sit in the driver seat of one let alone see one. ive heard good thing about them thats why im considering the swap. can anyone shed some light on this sublect for me? as far as the origional post.....you would be able to feel the vtec kick in but very slightly......its not much of a switch over like the b series switch over is concerned. if you upgrade to a larger cam profile you will be able to feel vtec just a tad bit more. but like everyone has been saying its not gonna feel like a rocket or anything like that.
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Old 08-23-2003, 06:37 AM   #57
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Okay, since there are several posts in here I want to make commnets to or respond to, I will not quote anyone. First off, to the person that started the post and told us to stop our bickering, as well as the person that told us to answer his question. First, the question was answered long ago. Second, sometimes threads seem to veer off-path when someone says something another person disagree's with. Then? Woosh, the bickering and arguements start, so thats how it went here. Sometimes threads get off-topic. I suppose though, that would suck to see it off topic if you were the thread origanator.

Okay, now to the rest. To all the newer people that posted on the D vv B arguement, Silver, me, and Jcrx all pretty much started the obivous. What engine is BEST really depends on your goals. High output is not always the goal. For Silver, he Auto-x's, so, correct me if I am wrong here buddy, but a swap would first off throw him into another class. Right there, building a D to the appropreate levels for his auto-x'ing is a much better idea. Second, he's not trying for massive HP output, so this wont run him cost wise with the D into the stratosphere. For him, the D is a good choice for a motor. Now for me? Hell no. I want 300WHP, I want Low-end torque, I want a boosted motor. The B18B1 offers me, A) best low end torque of any B or D. B)Ability to handle up to 12psi on stock internals, plus is a very turbo friendly motor, on my way to the finished build, C) the LS tranny is great for FI. I can go on, but I'll stop. Now see, the best motor for Silver is NOT the best motor for me, mine would be a nightmare for him. But to me, I don't want his motor at all. Doesn't fit my goals in any way. For what motor is best, it's all about goals. No one said a B didn't have more potenial for higher output than a D series. We all agree, for high output apps, the B does give you a better starting base. This was about 2 things. A) It is possible to build a fast D series. B) the best motor for you is the one that fits your goals best.
Now as to the B18B1, PWMAN is correct, it is the Best Honda motor to boost stock. The H22 has thin cylinder walls, and requires re-sleeving and closing the deck to run much boost on it. The LS will run gobbs more. Stock internals vs stock internals, the LS is the best engine to boost. It can handle 12PSI, plus the cams are turbo friendly, and the tranny is agrueably the best suited for turbo apps. When buying a Honda motor to boost, the LS is your motor was his point. It costs less than its V-tec B-series berthern, it can handle more boost stock, has a better tranny for FI, good cams for it (non-vtec). And once you build it, it can really throw the power out. It's a great great base motor for a turbo.

My point is, I think we ALL made our points in this discussion. So to the people just coming in. PLEASE READ and understand this. I think WE ARE ALL SICK OF REPEATING OURSELVES!!! We don't need to keep arguing the same crap over and over again!!!
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Old 08-23-2003, 07:50 PM   #58
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crv-tec

i have heard that the b20 block has a problem with cracking due the the higher compression if you put a vtec head on them. but if you work at a machine shop it might be worth it. they can be very potent if done correctly cause i have seen a low to mid twelve second crv-tec in an all show car why he did it i still dont know but it was cool. so thats my
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Old 08-23-2003, 07:52 PM   #59
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Yeah the B20 has been known to crack sleeves fairly easily under boost. But if you sleeve it you are good to go
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Old 08-23-2003, 07:54 PM   #60
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thanks guys......i only know little about these hybrids but i would sure still like to try it out.
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