not feeling V-Tech

[Ricochet]

I have a friend with a turbo EX and it hauls ass, and could easily whoop on my B16B, but he's poured about 6 grand on top of it for everything compared to my $4k engine (plus about $1k for installation parts and shipping) which can beat almost anything on the street. It's more respectable to have a fast sohc I guess, but realistically who's really winning? For that same $8k I can buy my engine, plus use that extra 3 grand and hook it up N/A and destroy him more reliably, and then more respectably by not using any boost.

[S1 Type-R]

Originally Posted by PWMAN

Whoever said that is an idiot. Can you boost a stock D series 14 PSI safely? Hell no.
So a untouched B18B1 is boosting 14 PSI, making 250+ WHP. Lets see any stock D series do that. You have to drop in about 3 Grand in internals to do that.
Lets see, D16Y8+14 PSI=Connecting rod(s) venting the block - not to mention the piston(s) that just blew out through your hood along with the head. Oh one other thing, the tranny is 50 feet back laying on the ground too.

Couldnt have said it better myself...

[PWMAN]

Hmm, no one seems to argue with my post, just agree with it. Maybe it's because they know i'm right? LOL, morons
So to get back on topic a little, the SOHC VTEC's do not kick in as harsh as the DOHC VTEC's. This is a well known fact. It only makes sense, that having to kick on 2 cams is going to make more of a jolt than 1 cam. It's more ''rotating mass'' if you will.

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally Posted by PWMAN

Hmm, no one seems to argue with my post, just agree with it. Maybe it's because they know i'm right? LOL, morons

Hmm, I take it you didn't click on the link in my previous post. Figures. I can find you 100+ people on there that will argue this point to you enough to make you at least rethink your assumptions on the D-series motor and what it's REALLY capable of.

[PWMAN]

Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic

Hmm, I take it you didn't click on the link in my previous post. Figures. I can find you 100+ people on there that will argue this point to you enough to make you at least rethink your assumptions on the D-series motor and what it's REALLY capable of.

Yeah I did click on the link.
Why don't you tell me a stock D series that can handle 14 PSI?
And it's not the ''lazy man's fad'', it's smart to do a B series swap. Considering the costs here-
B18B1 swap, 3K total with mounts ETC..., turbo kit-4K total for a good setup, 12 PSI-275 WHP, 500 bucks for a good exhaust system. so thats 7.5K total for 275 WHP
Stock D16Z6-rebuild internals-3K with sleeves, turbo kit-4K for a good setup running maybe 18 PSI, 500 for exhaust then you might make 250 WHP and not near as much torque for the same price as the B18B1 swap with turbo.
The D16 might make as much HP, but you have to remember your already at it's max it can handle. The B18B1 hasn't even been rebuilt, so once you do the internals you can push 20+ PSI and make 400 WHP. The D16Z6 with 20 PSI is going to do 300 WHP maybe.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by PWMAN

Yeah I did click on the link.
Why don't you tell me a stock D series that can handle 14 PSI?
And it's not the ''lazy man's fad'', it's smart to do a B series swap. Considering the costs here-
B18B1 swap, 3K total with mounts ETC..., turbo kit-4K total for a good setup, 12 PSI-275 WHP, 500 bucks for a good exhaust system. so thats 7.5K total for 275 WHP
Stock D16Z6-rebuild internals-3K with sleeves, turbo kit-4K for a good setup running maybe 18 PSI, 500 for exhaust then you might make 250 WHP and not near as much torque for the same price as the B18B1 swap with turbo.
The D16 might make as much HP, but you have to remember your already at it's max it can handle. The B18B1 hasn't even been rebuilt, so once you do the internals you can push 20+ PSI and make 400 WHP. The D16Z6 with 20 PSI is going to do 300 WHP maybe.

Thats hittin the nail on the head. Look, D-series build-ups arn't dumb. It's a matter of what do you want. The boosted B18B1 will give you more torque than the D-series, the LS has the low peak torque too. Low end torque makes a big differnce in street driving too. Also, the 12psi boosted LS is at 250 hp, the built and boost d-series is at that, but much much closer to max'd out. And the cost of the build and turbo makes it cost wise, close to the LS +turbo. I know of a guy with a 500HP boosted LS/Vtec in san deigo. He built it himself, all the work himself. It will cost a LOT LOT more to try and get the d-series even close to that. It's all about your goals and willingness to spend. If you want 400HP, a swap is a good idea and good start. If you want a 160hp engine, it would be cheaper to boost the d-series, yes. But to stay that a swap in a "lazy mans fad" or "taking the bandwagon way out" is unfair. If I way a 400 HP boosted motor, with more torque, I am swappin in an LS, and I am not being lazy or following a bandwagon, I choosing to start with a motor that fits my goals better. Plus you can boost an LS safely to 12 psi on stock internals, there is NO WAY you want to go that high on a d-series motor. 6psi is about what the limit is on a stock internal d-series, before you need to build it up to handle more. Also, once built, the d-series @12psi still has less HP than the LS on stock internals @ 12psi. And if you build the LS? Well, you read what Robbie Potts got out of his...500HP.

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

Thats hittin the nail on the head. Look, D-series build-ups arn't dumb. It's a matter of what do you want. The boosted B18B1 will give you more torque than the D-series, the LS has the low peak torque too. Low end torque makes a big differnce in street driving too. Also, the 12psi boosted LS is at 250 hp, the built and boost d-series is at that, but much much closer to max'd out. And the cost of the build and turbo makes it cost wise, close to the LS +turbo. I know of a guy with a 500HP boosted LS/Vtec in san deigo. He built it himself, all the work himself. It will cost a LOT LOT more to try and get the d-series even close to that. It's all about your goals and willingness to spend. If you want 400HP, a swap is a good idea and good start. If you want a 160hp engine, it would be cheaper to boost the d-series, yes. But to stay that a swap in a "lazy mans fad" or "taking the bandwagon way out" is unfair. If I way a 400 HP boosted motor, with more torque, I am swappin in an LS, and I am not being lazy or following a bandwagon, I choosing to start with a motor that fits my goals better. Plus you can boost an LS safely to 12 psi on stock internals, there is NO WAY you want to go that high on a d-series motor. 6psi is about what the limit is on a stock internal d-series, before you need to build it up to handle more. Also, once built, the d-series @12psi still has less HP than the LS on stock internals @ 12psi. And if you build the LS? Well, you read what Robbie Potts got out of his...500HP.

Let's try this, it's "lazy mans" or "bandwagon" to anyone that suggests to swap for it just because they think it's the thing to do. Face it, the B is played out, plain and simple. Almost everyone has one. Not to mention they are starting to get more scarce (since they aren't made anymore in the US) that the price of them is creeping up. Many think D's are worthless, so you can get them for WAY cheaper. So how is a B going to be a cheaper route if that's the case? Do some math people. Building up a D isn't as expensive as many of you think. A good cam for a D, what's it cost? Thinking $400-$600? Wrong! You can get a 15hp gain from a cam for a D for $65!!! How? Easy, you have Delta Cams send you a 272 spec re-grind cam. 250hp the max of the D on rebilt internals? LMAO, not even close! Bisi Ezerioha, I'll bet most of you don't even know who that is. He's the D motor drap pioneer. He runs a 10.70 second ALL MOTOR D15 (not D16 here) CRX. That's right, 10.70 Even those with B's know how hard it is to pull those kind of times even in all motor form. If he can do that from a D15 or all motors (it's weaker than a D16 is) then D's have way more potential than you all give them credit for or think thy can handle. Simply put, don't assume. You don't have to replace rods off the bat, shot peening can give you the strength you need for much less to a certain point. Pistons, merely swapping to pistons from like an A1/6 or Z6 motor can make a differance between night and day. Swapping out to a Y8 intake mani is much smarter and cheaper than swapping to like a Skunk2 mani. So with some brian juice in action and some research skills, you guys are wrong with your assumptions on the D. YEah if you boost to 14psi blah blah blah then you gotta do some serious work, but you'll have to to even a B, so you come out the same eitherway, but you get the respect if you do it with the D.

[Ricochet]

I'm sure it's possible, but I doubt that car would be even close to streetable and it probably weighs like 1400lbs because the entire car is stripped. On a daily grinder without the slicks and complete stripping that car would probably run 12's-13's. Still superb times for a built sohc, but realistically for a street car, the dohc b-series is a better swap in my opinion.

[PWMAN]

Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic

Let's try this, it's "lazy mans" or "bandwagon" to anyone that suggests to swap for it just because they think it's the thing to do. Face it, the B is played out, plain and simple. Almost everyone has one. Not to mention they are starting to get more scarce (since they aren't made anymore in the US) that the price of them is creeping up. Many think D's are worthless, so you can get them for WAY cheaper. So how is a B going to be a cheaper route if that's the case? Do some math people. Building up a D isn't as expensive as many of you think. A good cam for a D, what's it cost? Thinking $400-$600? Wrong! You can get a 15hp gain from a cam for a D for $65!!! How? Easy, you have Delta Cams send you a 272 spec re-grind cam. 250hp the max of the D on rebilt internals? LMAO, not even close! Bisi Ezerioha, I'll bet most of you don't even know who that is. He's the D motor drap pioneer. He runs a 10.70 second ALL MOTOR D15 (not D16 here) CRX. That's right, 10.70 Even those with B's know how hard it is to pull those kind of times even in all motor form. If he can do that from a D15 or all motors (it's weaker than a D16 is) then D's have way more potential than you all give them credit for or think thy can handle. Simply put, don't assume. You don't have to replace rods off the bat, shot peening can give you the strength you need for much less to a certain point. Pistons, merely swapping to pistons from like an A1/6 or Z6 motor can make a differance between night and day. Swapping out to a Y8 intake mani is much smarter and cheaper than swapping to like a Skunk2 mani. So with some brian juice in action and some research skills, you guys are wrong with your assumptions on the D. YEah if you boost to 14psi blah blah blah then you gotta do some serious work, but you'll have to to even a B, so you come out the same eitherway, but you get the respect if you do it with the D.

OMG you moron, , I think you completely missed the point.
TORQUE
An engine with more torque will rule on the street. Yes at the track you need as much HP as possible, but on the street is a little different.
And I said 300 WHP, not 250
A 300 WHP built D16 with be out done by a 250 WHP B18B1, simply because of torque. Respect? I call it stupidity

BTW I bet that guy with the D15 has about 30K in his engine
Can we please start comparing apples to apples please???? Apparently not.

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally Posted by PWMAN

OMG you moron, , I think you completely missed the point.
TORQUE
An engine with more torque will rule on the street. Yes at the track you need as much HP as possible, but on the street is a little different.
And I said 300 WHP, not 250
A 300 WHP built D16 with be out done by a 250 WHP B18B1, simply because of torque. Respect? I call it stupidity

BTW I bet that guy with the D15 has about 30K in his engine
Can we please start comparing apples to apples please???? Apparently not.

Name calling, interesting tactic that will get you nowhere fast. Better watch your mouth and who you say what to here.

I'd LOVE to see you post that same bit on the site in the link I posted to you, so I can see them ream you a new one on how not true that is. Oh, and the D15 doesn't have anywhere near that much invested in the engine, he can barely afford to make any east coast appearances and he's not even sponsored, well yet. But he does design and R&D his own parts that he makes for D motors, but that's just recent and AFTER his CRX was all built up to the 10 second mark. Again, failure to RESEARCH and just assume things won't get you far in life. Pretty sad, but it happens. Looks like you lost that bet. It's called RESPECT for the project at hand, hookups and knowing what you are doing to save in labor charges. Any mechanically inclined car person should know that.

On that note, what experience if ANY do you have with D-series motors? A well built D is stupidity? Why, because you don't like them to begin with, or because you fail to look into the FACTS of the matter? I'm not saying a D is better than a B, but it's not a bad choice let a lone a stupid one. It's smart because dispite what you think, it's actually CHEAPER than a B unless you really want to pull some serious hp out of it, then you're better off with a swap, but not a B, you're in H-block territory there, and that's WAY more worthwhile than getting a B.

And again, your torque theory is ALL wrong. How so? Well let's see, '00 D16Y7 puts out 106hp and 103lbs/ft. or torque. '00 Si B16 puts out 160hp and 111lbs/ft. of torque. That's almost 50 lbs/ft shy of the hp rating, where the D puts out almost as much torque as hp. Which is gonna have more than the other in the long run? Also, why do people do CRVTEC swaps? Simply put, the B20 has more torque than B16 or even B18. It's TRUCK motor after all. Obviously a stock B (non hybrid head I mean) doesn't cut it for torque. If one just wanted a B18 with VTEC, they would do a LS-V swap instead. I think YOU are the one missing the concept of torque here.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic

Name calling, interesting tactic that will get you nowhere fast. Better watch your mouth and who you say what to here.

I'd LOVE to see you post that same bit on the site in the link I posted to you, so I can see them ream you a new one on how not true that is. Oh, and the D15 doesn't have anywhere near that much invested in the engine, he can barely afford to make any east coast appearances and he's not even sponsored, well yet. But he does design and R&D his own parts that he makes for D motors, but that's just recent and AFTER his CRX was all built up to the 10 second mark. Again, failure to RESEARCH and just assume things won't get you far in life. Pretty sad, but it happens. Looks like you lost that bet. It's called RESPECT for the project at hand, hookups and knowing what you are doing to save in labor charges. Any mechanically inclined car person should know that.

On that note, what experience if ANY do you have with D-series motors? A well built D is stupidity? Why, because you don't like them to begin with, or because you fail to look into the FACTS of the matter? I'm not saying a D is better than a B, but it's not a bad choice let a lone a stupid one. It's smart because dispite what you think, it's actually CHEAPER than a B unless you really want to pull some serious hp out of it, then you're better off with a swap, but not a B, you're in H-block territory there, and that's WAY more worthwhile than getting a B.

And again, your torque theory is ALL wrong. How so? Well let's see, '00 D16Y7 puts out 106hp and 103lbs/ft. or torque. '00 Si B16 puts out 160hp and 111lbs/ft. of torque. That's almost 50 lbs/ft shy of the hp rating, where the D puts out almost as much torque as hp. Which is gonna have more than the other in the long run? Also, why do people do CRVTEC swaps? Simply put, the B20 has more torque than B16 or even B18. It's TRUCK motor after all. Obviously a stock B (non hybrid head I mean) doesn't cut it for torque. If one just wanted a B18 with VTEC, they would do a LS-V swap instead. I think YOU are the one missing the concept of torque here.

For the record, I do not think keeping a D is dumb by any means. But as for the torque arguement, read my post again and you see I was refering the the LS, not the B16A. I know full well the B16A lacks low-end torque. I don't think I even refered to the B16A once. I realize that the B16A has not much more torque than the D16 motors. Thats why I left it out. Please, understand I am NOT bashing the D. If you want, say, 160-170 hp and thats it, it may be cheaper to boost the d16z6 to 7psi or so to achive your power, than putting in that B16A. But if you want a 300HP motor and/or if low-end torque makes a difference, putting in an LS is not a bad idea. It's really, all about what your goals are. For the first example, buying a B16A isn't nessesarly a better choice. Either will do that person fine. But that doesn't make buying a b16a dumb, unless he does it to "fit a trend." Buying to "fit a trend" is dumb as hell, we all know that. Buy for your goals. If you are looking to build a high output motor, B-series motors are a better base to work with, due to the fact that they begin with more power than the D series motors. This is especially true with Forced Induction, where the base starting horsepower directly affects the HP made at a give boost. A Motor with a 160 HP base will have a lot more HP at 14.7 psi, for example, than a motor with a 127HP base start (roughly approxamated: 320HP compred to 254HP). That said, if low end torque is important to you, and a 300HP+ motor is your goal, swapping in a LS after your D15 bit the dust is by no means a dumb choice. Let's all stop the hating here (this comment is not directed at anyone in particular) and just admit, what motor is the "smart buy" for you depends fully on your goals. That can make a motor a good choice in one senerio, but dumb in another.

[jcrx]

1. Everyone is doing it, dare to be different in a world of sameness

A. So what is being different about keeping the motor the car came with? because no one is doing that? This makes NO SENSE. I seriously doubt there are anywhere near the number of B series Civics as there are D series.

2. Price. It will cost on average to swap a B16 around 3,000 dollars. You are looking at getting a deal at that price. The motor will run around 2G at the least and installation and wiring is gonna run you a 1000 at most shops. A GSR(B18C1) or LS(B18B) are gonna be more for the motor and tranny looking nearly 4500 there. It is true an LS can be picked up but did you bother to research the tranny issue? Type R is 6G for the motor, tranny, ECU. All these prices are arbitrary and dont reflect things falling off trucks, people who know people, or someone that can do the work (right the first time) themselves. Might as well swap an H it will be less. And then at least you'd have my respect.

B. Hmmm...no, more like a $2300 complete change over would cost, let me think...$2300? It cost me a whole $1900 to completely swap in a B16. Not to mention the LS motors usually cost slightly LESS than the vtecs, and for $4500 you can get a complete ITR swap, not just the motor and tranny. If you have someone else do the install then sure it can run into a price range like that, so can overhauling a D series.

3. Torque. You cant beat a 90mm stroke no matter what. 77 is okay I guess if you like all top end charge and no streetable low end. the bigger B's do have similar strokes it is true, but they also have bigger ports that dont help the torque department. Also refer to Item #2.

C. Usable powerband wins races, so this one doesn't even need to be touched, since a D series won't even touch a B without some serious mods, and I don't mean some bolt ons.

4. D's are plentiful when you break, B's arent and they are expensive.

D. More expensive, but hardly unaffordable, and you can readily get parts for ANY B series motor from your local Honda dealer.

5. If you dont know about the Birds and B's you should give me all the money you saved for your swap so I can SPEND it on something worthwhile since you arent. If you are gonna build a street car you have come to the right place. If you are gonna build a RACECAR that isnt gonna be driven on the street and be built to run in modified or Hotrod or Sport FWD, then consider a B, ONLY IF IT IS A RACECAR and not street driven.

E. A B series in a civic is a PERFECT street motor, hmmm... I guess that is why Honda put them into civics in other countries. Why on earth would you say "only if it's a racecar and not street driven"

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

For the record, I do not think keeping a D is dumb by any means. But as for the torque arguement, read my post again and you see I was refering the the LS, not the B16A. I know full well the B16A lacks low-end torque. I don't think I even refered to the B16A once. I realize that the B16A has not much more torque than the D16 motors. Thats why I left it out. Please, understand I am NOT bashing the D. If you want, say, 160-170 hp and thats it, it may be cheaper to boost the d16z6 to 7psi or so to achive your power, than putting in that B16A. But if you want a 300HP motor and/or if low-end torque makes a difference, putting in an LS is not a bad idea. It's really, all about what your goals are. For the first example, buying a B16A isn't nessesarly a better choice. Either will do that person fine. But that doesn't make buying a b16a dumb, unless he does it to "fit a trend." Buying to "fit a trend" is dumb as hell, we all know that. Buy for your goals. If you are looking to build a high output motor, B-series motors are a better base to work with, due to the fact that they begin with more power than the D series motors. This is especially true with Forced Induction, where the base starting horsepower directly affects the HP made at a give boost. A Motor with a 160 HP base will have a lot more HP at 14.7 psi, for example, than a motor with a 127HP base start (roughly approxamated: 320HP compred to 254HP). That said, if low end torque is important to you, and a 300HP+ motor is your goal, swapping in a LS after your D15 bit the dust is by no means a dumb choice. Let's all stop the hating here (this comment is not directed at anyone in particular) and just admit, what motor is the "smart buy" for you depends fully on your goals. That can make a motor a good choice in one senerio, but dumb in another.

You hit the nail on the head in detail here on what I lightly touched on, it all depends on the goals in mind. For me personally, I'd absolutely swap out if I was going for more than 250hp What would I swap for? Either CRVTEC or build up an H22. H22 is more feasable since it's quite torquey for a Honda motor. I wasn't going after your post, but moreless PWMAN's post. You have very valid and excellent points and arguments Eckoman_pdx. from what I've seen, most that ask about modding their D motor, aren't looking for anything big with it, there's not really any reason to swap, as it can in many cases cost more than building up a D to B-16/18 STOCK levels (building up a D for 160-170hp). Once above that, that's when a swap may come into consideration IMO. Once pushing the say 220hp mark, that's when you'll want to look at your swap options, as the stock D internals on a D16 (not D15 here) are at their max. 200hp is what was thought to be their limit, but that's not so true anymore. They can actually hold up to more than previously thought. But the strain will get to them over time of course. i know of a guy running 220hp out of his D15B7 with STOCK internals (just has cam, port and polish, adjusted timing and a 50 shot of Zex). We are amazed his internals are holding up, and he wants to up his nitrous shotage, but him nor us other fellw D'ers are optimistic that the rods will hold up to anymore. We're pretty much figuring they will break if he goes any higher. He's anticipating the same as well, but wants to find out the absolute limit of them. As for the "fad" part of B's. If a person swaps one because they plan to really tweak it out for quick times, then all the power to them, I love B motors (can't deny the look and sound of them) but if someo one does it because their friends did, or because someone told them they should, or they think they will be "cool" with it, then they are only kidding them selves and just wasted a chunk of change on something they probably didn't need in the first place. It's proven cheaper (if you know how and what you are doing) to build a D to the stock specs of a B than to just straight out swap for a B.

To jcrx, that last part you posted, when the guy said a B is for a race car, not the street, he was refering to a built up B, not a stock. If stock was the case, then Honda wouldn't have put them into as many cars as they did. But the fact of the matter is (holds true for ANY car), the more power you modify into a car (not talking high hp production exotics here) then the less streetable it becomes. He's also saying with that, that if you plan to have a seriously fast drag car, that's when you'd need or want a B. B is a racers motor, where as a D is more street oriented when built up for either of them.

[PWMAN]

Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic

\

And again, your torque theory is ALL wrong. How so? Well let's see, '00 D16Y7 puts out 106hp and 103lbs/ft. or torque. '00 Si B16 puts out 160hp and 111lbs/ft. of torque. That's almost 50 lbs/ft shy of the hp rating, where the D puts out almost as much torque as hp. Which is gonna have more than the other in the long run? Also, why do people do CRVTEC swaps? Simply put, the B20 has more torque than B16 or even B18. It's TRUCK motor after all. Obviously a stock B (non hybrid head I mean) doesn't cut it for torque. If one just wanted a B18 with VTEC, they would do a LS-V swap instead. I think YOU are the one missing the concept of torque here.

Yeah I must call you a moron again...
Of course, they are both 1.6L engines, they are going to make similar torque. But look how much more HP the B is creating. I never said HP didn't matter, I said it doesn't matter as much as torque. Besides, I never was talking about the B16 anyway, I was talking B18B1.
And of course naturally you took the best example from the D series and the worst example from the B series. OK let me flip that around on you, the B16 has the lowest torque of all the B series-whats the lowest torque of all the D series? HUH? Thats what I thought.
There is a reason Honda themselves never made a performance engine out of the D. The D's were made strictly for economy, and extremely mild performance when they added VTEC for the EX models. But even when they got serious they put in a B series, like for example the 99-00 SI civic.
Of course the B20 has more torque, it has more displacement-duh. But you have to build the engine first because the cylinder walls are so weak like the H series. The whole point of all of my posts is the best engine to turbo is the B18B1 overall because of the torque it produces and the amount of boost it can handle on it's STOCK internals with pump gas. Therefore being it is the best engine to turbo it is the best engine to swap because you can get 300 WHP for about 7K, and then you can always rebuild the internals and make a 500 WHP one if you want.

[PWMAN]

Oh one other thing, why is it that the worst B series (in terms of HP) has 140 HP and there is no D series that ever even had that much? You can even count JDM engines if you want, and still not even 140 HP.
LOL-Yeah the D's are really good aren't they???