Pinks "import vs. domestic"

[RyanCivic97]

i dunno what was under the hoods of the car because i happened to turn to the show 2 races into it but the civic was gettin 20 lengths on the firebird wtf is that???

[CivicSpoon]

I missed the show, but I'm guessing it's probably this one:
http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=3083

Someone posted a link before with the car on e-bay a month or so ago. It's too bad really, they should have at least done a b18c turbo.

[RyanCivic97]

yea it was pretty sad the civic got tore up

[CivicSpoon]

I'm watching it now, it's not the car I posted about.

Edit - watched the whole thing... that kid needs to learn how to drive.

[nikita7]

At the begining of the show they said that TA had 680HP and civic had 600. But from watching how civic ran I call it BS. Also civic driver's team was cast-offs from "Fast and a Furious". All white boys acting ghetto. I don't hate imports but civic driver didn't 'represent' imports in any way. Asking 20 lenghts... thats what I assume a car is 4M long = 80 meters ? 1/5 of the total race distance. Come on.

[giddyup50]

Originally Posted by nikita7

At the begining of the show they said that TA had 680HP and civic had 600. But from watching how civic ran I call it BS. Also civic driver's team was cast-offs from "Fast and a Furious". All white boys acting ghetto. I don't hate imports but civic driver didn't 'represent' imports in any way. Asking 20 lenghts... thats what I assume a car is 4M long = 80 meters ? 1/5 of the total race distance. Come on.

First, I love your license plate. Second, the TA actually had 645hp and Honda 600hp. I'm sure the TA had a ton more torque, that was obvious of the starting line. Ofcourse, I loved the show. I thought the outcome was great! But I do have to admit, the TA was more of an all out dragcar than the Honda was. The Honda kid was an ass. He came out right at the start acting like a punk with an attitude for no reason. While the TA guy was calm and cool. The punk either was really stupid or he thought that the TA guys were stupid when they accused him of granny shifting and he said "that's how I drive". I guess it turned out that he was stupid and DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE!! Either that or he didn't want to hurt the little Honda. Why the hell did he wait untill he was 2 races down to use his slicks?? He should've used them from the start.

I do hope they find a better import or Focus, Neon, or those type of cars to go against a V8 car. Although I loved the outcome of this show, I really felt like they could've found a better "import" driver and car.

[CivicSpoon]

I missed them saying the horsepower of the cars, it's even more pathetic now. A 600whp Civic should have ate the firebird, based on power to weight ratio alone (well...with the slicks anyways). Oh well. It will just make domestic drivers think that even 600whp Civics are slow, then they'll slip into reality when they meet someone who can actually drive their car.

[giddyup50]

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

I missed them saying the horsepower of the cars, it's even more pathetic now. A 600whp Civic should have ate the firebird, based on power to weight ratio alone (well...with the slicks anyways). Oh well. It will just make domestic drivers think that even 600whp Civics are slow, then they'll slip into reality when they meet someone who can actually drive their car.

Yeah, they showed the power of each car when they first start the show when they show the cars doing a burnout and the screen is all red. I don't think its the power at the wheels though, I think it's at the crank/flywheel. Even with the power to weight ratio I still see the T/A kickin butt. It had 45 more horse and the thing that we are forgetting is TORQUE!! I'm not trying to dog you guys but, we all know that when it comes to torque, 4cyl. cars can't match V8 cars. They may be able to put up good numbers on the horsepower scale but, it's alittle harder for them to make the torque. I'm sure some 4cyl. guys are putting up good #'s for torque but, how much do you have to spend on them to get that number. Whenever I see a V8 car with that much hp they usually have the tq around the same number. When I see 4cyl. cars they may have great hp #'s say, 600hp but, their tq #'s are usually around 400-450tq. Or even less. If the car next to you has almost 200-250 more tq. even if it weighs more with that much more torque he'll say C-YA off the line every time. Just like the T/A did.

Don't quote me but I think a stock (I'm sure the T/A was stripped) T/A weighs around 3200 pounds. What does a stock Civic weigh? Thanks.

[CivicSpoon]

Stock Civic weighs around 2100-2250lbs. I definently agree with the T/A (trans am?) being able to take a Civic off the line, based on both torque and being rwd. But beating a car off the line is only half the battle. With the Civic, all it's power is at the top end (and most turbo'd H/A's spin their tires in 1st and 2nd gear anyways). And RWD cars loose more power through their drivetrain as well, so if it wasn't whp and was hp at the flywheel; that'd give the advantage to the Civic. Then the whole NA (well, almsot NA) vs turbo, obviously the turbo needs time to spool to reach full potential, where the TA would have had the power off the line. Honestly, I retract my previous statement about the Civic should have ate the ta, because clearly there are too many variables. I'll just say that the Civic should have done a hell of a lot better and made it a much closer race than it did. I think a race of drive vs driver is what definently won the race hands down by the TA guy.

[giddyup50]

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

Stock Civic weighs around 2100-2250lbs. I definently agree with the T/A (trans am?) being able to take a Civic off the line, based on both torque and being rwd. But beating a car off the line is only half the battle. With the Civic, all it's power is at the top end (and most turbo'd H/A's spin their tires in 1st and 2nd gear anyways). And RWD cars loose more power through their drivetrain as well, so if it wasn't whp and was hp at the flywheel; that'd give the advantage to the Civic. Then the whole NA (well, almsot NA) vs turbo, obviously the turbo needs time to spool to reach full potential, where the TA would have had the power off the line. Honestly, I retract my previous statement about the Civic should have ate the ta, because clearly there are too many variables. I'll just say that the Civic should have done a hell of a lot better and made it a much closer race than it did. I think a race of drive vs driver is what definently won the race hands down by the TA guy.

Wow, I would've never guessed 1,000 pounds. Definate advantage stock/stock.

1.The Civics power may be at the top however, the TA's is good through the whole RPM range.
2.While the Honda is sitting there spinning, the TA is moving, then gone.
3. I'm confused. You say you agree about the TA on the start BECAUSE OF RWD, then you say the TA WOULD LOSE POWER BECAUSE OF RWD. I always thought that RWD cars put down more power to the wheels than FWD. Correct me if I'm wrong.
4. I agree with you that there were ALOT of variables on that show.
5. I THINK WE ALL CAN AGREE THAT THE HONDA KID WAS AN IDIOT AND DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE AND SHOULD'VE USED HIS SLICKS FROM THE START!!! DID I SAY HE WAS AN IDIOT??? HE WAS!!

[pimprolla112]

Well you are not looking at one thing, imports make a hell of a lot more HP per liter than a domestic you put 600hp out of a 1.6 l or 1.8l vs that 600 from 5.0 or 5.7 the little import motor is a lot more impressive. Im assuming you have never seen the skunk2 rsx damn car ran a 9.6 NA no turbo no juice with a 315hp, as far as i know thats the fastest all motor pass in the 1/4 mile domestic or import.

http://www.skunk2.com/ssFeature_1005.pdf

As for the RWD gets more power than FWD thats pretty much a myth power will go along the shortest route ie on an import motor, flywheel, clutch, trans, axles wheels in a domestic you have motor, flywheel, clutch, trans, driveshaft, rear end , wheels the bi advantage to the RWD guys is the way weight shifts to the rear so the rear on a domestic gets more traction, while in an import the weight isnt completely on the wheels. Another advantage is read end gearing you get the gearing right and you put the torque out at a nice low rpm ie the wheelie while imports have one gear ration domestics have the ability to change the ratio for what they need.

As for the episode that is my home town track ive done work for the owner and the last episode there with the bikes i did some work on the busa in our shop. that guy was a fucking disgrace to car racing if you cant beat them heads up and you where invited then you deserve to lose your car. Dont talk if you cant back it up. That and i think the host of the show is a douche bag, he beat him by almost 20 lengths "do you think he outperformed you" yeah he had a damn 1/8 mile head start and the damn domestic didnt stand a chancee with no nitrous. Oh yeah im an import guy by the way and a domestic guy i work in a very well known billet perfromance shop, i drive a chevy and i own an accord which will soon be able to beat some stock cobras thanks to the knowledge ive learned from domestics, so i have a non bias response.

[giddyup50]

Originally Posted by pimprolla112

Well you are not looking at one thing, imports make a hell of a lot more HP per liter than a domestic you put 600hp out of a 1.6 l or 1.8l vs that 600 from 5.0 or 5.7 the little import motor is a lot more impressive. Im assuming you have never seen the skunk2 rsx damn car ran a 9.6 NA no turbo no juice with a 315hp, as far as i know thats the fastest all motor pass in the 1/4 mile domestic or import.

http://www.skunk2.com/ssFeature_1005.pdf

As for the RWD gets more power than FWD thats pretty much a myth power will go along the shortest route ie on an import motor, flywheel, clutch, trans, axles wheels in a domestic you have motor, flywheel, clutch, trans, driveshaft, rear end , wheels the bi advantage to the RWD guys is the way weight shifts to the rear so the rear on a domestic gets more traction, while in an import the weight isnt completely on the wheels. Another advantage is read end gearing you get the gearing right and you put the torque out at a nice low rpm ie the wheelie while imports have one gear ration domestics have the ability to change the ratio for what they need.

As for the episode that is my home town track ive done work for the owner and the last episode there with the bikes i did some work on the busa in our shop. that guy was a fucking disgrace to car racing if you cant beat them heads up and you where invited then you deserve to lose your car. Dont talk if you cant back it up. That and i think the host of the show is a douche bag, he beat him by almost 20 lengths "do you think he outperformed you" yeah he had a damn 1/8 mile head start and the damn domestic didnt stand a chancee with no nitrous. Oh yeah im an import guy by the way and a domestic guy i work in a very well known billet perfromance shop, i drive a chevy and i own an accord which will soon be able to beat some stock cobras thanks to the knowledge ive learned from domestics, so i have a non bias response.

I'm not trying to start an impor. VS. domes. war here but-
1.To get 600hp out of a 4cyl. you have to spend ALOT MORE money than you would on a V8. Dollar for dollar, import not so impressive.
2.How reliable is that 4cyl. with that much done to it?
3.No, I haven't seen the skunk. 9.6 1/4 with 315hp!!!??? He must of had the whole interior stripped, and one hell of a suspension setup!! With 315hp MOST cars run around high 12's-13's. I don't doubt 315hp NA. I'm sure he had to basically rebuild the engine for that. A V8 would be stock or just need a few bolt-ons. Altough I don't know ANY V8's that run 9.6 1/4 w/315hp.
4.As for the RWD/FWD debate. Everything you said I know and agree with however, the half-shafts on FWD cars aren't as strong as a driveshaft for RWD stock/stock. And the weight transfer favors RWD like you stated ealier but, I'm sure there are FWD guys out there that have suspensions to help with that.
I'm not here to bash you guys or the cars you like, I believe, take whatever you have and make it faster. Hell, my daily driver is a Taurus. Yes, I said Taurus, shut-up, quit laughing! But it does have a 3.0 Duratec DOHC 200hp/200tq. Not bad for a family car. I've even thought of hopping it up, my wife just laughs at me. Oh well. I admitt I don't know that much about imports/4cyl. performance but, when I look at catalogs and you guys are paying almost double for parts and getting less hp from those parts. I just can't see spending that kind of money and getting less performance. IN MOST CASES.

[CivicSpoon]

Honestly it probably cost him around $15,000-17,000 for everything done to the Civic, including the price of the car. And with what is done to the car (sleeves, pistons, Crower rods); it should be pretty damn reliable and should last for years without any major problems. The skunk2 car is a full on race car, not a street car by any means. I'm sure it's fully gutted, full drag suspension, slicks, fully built engine, etc. But with the half shaft/drive shaft thing, that's what aftermarket parts are for There are quite a few companies that make racing axles that are able to handle well over 600whp (of course they cost $1K or more). But catalog prices are very misleading. I look at Summit racing, jegs, and other catalogs like that and just laugh at what some people actually pay for parts. With sites like honda-tech, and their sponsor subforums; you can get anything for a lot cheaper than most places sell them for.

And I appreciate the way you chose to discuss this. Most of the time topics like this become huge flame wars, with everyone ragging on everyone elses cars (I'm sure there's still time for one of those people to join in though). I personally drive a Civic, because to me it's very cost effective and easy to work on. I look at cars and look at cost of the car, weight of the car, and cost for parts. To me, when comparing, a Civic is a far better choice. Sure they can be more expensive than other older cars when comparably equipped, but they're a hell of a lot better than most stock newer cars ('96-'06). And I just don't like American cars, personal preference only. If someone else likes them and has better luck with them than I have in the past, that's cool with me.

[pimprolla112]

Ok that is also a myth as far as it takes more to make an import faster. Im not going to tally up a cost total unless you need it because i dont have the time right now but and import can be made to run 12's nitrous, turbo, na for between 5k-10k including cost of the car. Thats less than most domestics. You forgot a huge point which i power to weight ratio, click the link it shows the skunk 2 car, which is a drag car so yes its stripped, but also it has a new K series engine N/A im not kidding on that. Im not trying to get into a war again on this but it can be done, domestics ruled the streets what 15-20 years ago now its imports, economy cars with massive power being pushed to the limit. Import motors rev higher which also creates one hell of a power band, this paired with F/I makes a street beast. Now im not going to sit and say that domestic dont have there strong points, but 500 hp in a 2100lb civic can put that little car into the low 10,s. That guy on pinks just couldnt drive.

Most people dont buy from catalogs i mean parts arent almost double the price, say you buy rings, rods whatever imports need less, so you guys end up spending almost double for the extra parts. As for the 3.0 with 200hp, look at an integra type-r 210hp from a 1.8l stock. Im not bashing im just stating what is true. Il admit domestics do rule the drag scene but imports are now destrying records set by domestics.

[CivicSpoon]

Did some "detective" work.
Here's a video of the entire episode for those who haven't seen it (it's also re-airing tonight at 7:30 ET): http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...467864&q=pinks

Here's what the T/A driver is saying (Jeff 96 SS): http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...=437572&page=9
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...437572&page=11

This is what the Civic driver has to say (94lsvtecturbocivic): http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1560932&page=2

And this is where the kid sold his car, with a list of mods: http://hondamarketplace.com/zerothread?id=1503673