The Official: "There's no such thing as a dumb question about the McLaren F1" thread

[Sami Aaltonen]

Originally Posted by Le Man

As for the basic architecture of the engine being as a standard road F1 that won LeMans, I would totally believe Gordon on that. What he does not add in the article is the main fundemental changes that had to be made, to make sure the engine ran reliable for 24 hours. I can elaborate further if anybody wishes to know.

Sami, when you hear a GTR engine going up through the gears, its the engines torque being produced that makes that wonderfull engine sound

Thank You Le Man for a great detail information about this re-mapping case!
Never know too much about these things!

About that first part; I have to make this sure that I understood right, there was couple of words which aren't familar to me:
- The engine has been made so well that nothing big changed did not need to make to it before Le Mans?

- That Fundemental word; means that there was specific things which have to be changed, if thinkin of racing or 24 hours racing?

And Le Man; of course, anything detail information is good to know, so if you have anything more, please tell.

Yep, I don't know how the specific sound of each engine will produced, but one thing is for sure, I think;
GTR's has no silenders, it has "straight pipes" if it would say like this way. So the sound hasn't desinged like todays supercars have. Porsche at least has often said that "the engineerings have focused to get the right sound of this new flat six by desing the exhaust system well...".

What you think about this?
Has BMW and McLaren desinged together the sound of that Engine by purpose or is it just accidently result?
The sound is one of the best ever, LM and GTR even better than the road car.

GTR - Speaker corner Spa

[Le Man]

Thankyou Sami,

I tried to explain best in laymans terms, which would translate OK .

Answer 1,

The BMW S70/2 was designed and engineered to race car engine principles, so basically look at it, as an understressed race engine for the road.

Answer 2,

First of all I shall correct my spelling, "Fundamental" Which means the essential and primary changes that needed to be done for endurance competition.

These were,

The dry sump lubrication was changed to meet racing requirements and competition standard engine bay cooling and heat shields were added.

The engine radiators were increased in size (depth) for better cooling. The front bumper intakes and radiator ducts were changed just before LeMan, to increase cooling efficiency.

I.E. You have to keep engine temperatures in check during competition, Critical, if you are going to run "FLAT OUT" for 24 hours

BMW may have played with the cams/Vanos system to optimize the torque curve and raised the compression ratio slightly over standard, for 95? (I know they did this on the 96 spec engine)

...............................

The exhaust note was purely by accident, its down to pipe internal diameter and tube length plus the engines compression ratio and fuel/air mixture. SOME ACCIDENT The best V12, I have ever heard

Talking of which, I shall post something exhaust related tomorrow .

[simmypam]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

Here's a question - in the recent Octane magazine article, Rowan Atkinson refers to F1s with brake upgrades engineered by their owners. Here's his quote:

"The McLaren brakes are not good. They are probably best described as 'very 1992'. They are Brembo, quite sophisticated things in their day, but they seem poor by modern standards. You can see why some F1 owners have developed their own brake upgrades."

Since he's always the first to come to mind when people mention F1 upgrades - I believe Flemke has talked about doing this in the past, but does anyone who follows the PistonHeads threads more closely than me know if he's gotten anywhere with that? The most recent images I have of his car show very standard looking F1 brakes. I'm not familiar with any other F1s that don't have the standard Brembo package either.

As this is the one weak link that everyone talks about with the F1, I'd be curious to know more about any owner's brake upgrades?

>8^)
ER

I believe his current rotors are slotted now, and not drilled--he said he prefers the former over the latter.

This link has a little dissertation on the short comings of the F1's brakes, if people want to have some idea of what Rowan is talking about.

http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/t...%204)%20&mid=0

An update on his brake project--Flemke quote from Nov 11, 2009:

"Hey, Taz.
Project is almost done - really.
We've got a new braking system on it - AP monoblocs designed for LMP 1, bigger discs, etc. The braking is miles better now. I'd make a change to a slightly softer pad, but...
after having confirmed the feasibility on a test vehicle, I have given the go-ahead to some folks who make a different braking system that will be quite special. The system ought to be ready to install in next couple of months, so then we'll just need a bit of decent weather to test on the actual car. Once that is done, we'll decide whether to go to slightly different springs, adjust the dampers, maybe play with bump-steer and toe, and we should be there.
I'm not sure when the new wheels will be ready, but they'll be the same weight as now; only possible change from now would be small one to width."

I think the special brakes might be something like a dual-rotor carbon/carbon setup, which he mentioned long-ago.

[Le Man]

As promised,

Here,s a pic, that you would not normally see



Who can tell me exactly, what,s in the pic?

I will post some more pics, when the question has been answered correctly.

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by Le Man

Who can tell me exactly, what,s in the pic?

My guess would be the exhaust system, the joint where exhausts of three cylinders join to one exhaust pipe (12 cylinders, 4 tail pipes -> 3 cylinders per pipe).

[Le Man]

Originally Posted by DocGTR

My guess would be the exhaust system, the joint where exhausts of three cylinders join to one exhaust pipe (12 cylinders, 4 tail pipes -> 3 cylinders per pipe).

Correct

Check out the memorabilia thread later

[Sami Aaltonen]

Originally Posted by Le Man

Thankyou Sami,

I tried to explain best in laymans terms, which would translate OK .

Answer 1,

The BMW S70/2 was designed and engineered to race car engine principles, so basically look at it, as an understressed race engine for the road.

Answer 2,

First of all I shall correct my spelling, "Fundamental" Which means the essential and primary changes that needed to be done for endurance competition.

These were,

The dry sump lubrication was changed to meet racing requirements and competition standard engine bay cooling and heat shields were added.

The engine radiators were increased in size (depth) for better cooling. The front bumper intakes and radiator ducts were changed just before LeMan, to increase cooling efficiency.

I.E. You have to keep engine temperatures in check during competition, Critical, if you are going to run "FLAT OUT" for 24 hours

BMW may have played with the cams/Vanos system to optimize the torque curve and raised the compression ratio slightly over standard, for 95? (I know they did this on the 96 spec engine)

...............................

The exhaust note was purely by accident, its down to pipe internal diameter and tube length plus the engines compression ratio and fuel/air mixture. SOME ACCIDENT The best V12, I have ever heard

Talking of which, I shall post something exhaust related tomorrow .

OK! Everything is clear now. These things were mentioned that Racecar Engineering's article, different words, most of them. Just really didn't knew the word and that's why this "mess".

It has very clear that BMW did fantastic job. First Paul Roche (if I remembered the name right) offered to Gordon their recent 5 litre V12, which were seen at 850i and I think 750i series. Gordon rejected it, and like he did the "evolution" version of that same engine.
So at the end; Paul came back and Gordon got what he wanted big capasity V12, over 7100rpm (more than any big Ferrari Engines that day) and over 100bhp/litre.

Yep the Racecars article lines your comments about the changes on 95-96 engines. 96' also the fuel injection system were changed a bit if I remember it right. 1996 engine's compression ratio was rised to 12:1. Also the BPR requlations dropped the peak power about that 30bhp, but increased the torque I think. So 1995 GTR engine had around 630+ and 1996 Engine around 600bph. But because the aerodynamic changes of 1996 GTR, the car was even faster and more stable to drive than 1995 version. The article has lots of information about this aerodynamic case of 1995 and 1996 GTR's.

And what comes those engines:
Specialty the GTR / LM sound is one of the best ever V12 sounds. Fortunately I heard the 1997 GTR growling streets on Helsinki!
But very very VERY CLOSE to this BMW fantastic V12 sound gets an early Lamborghini Diablos. That 5,7 litre V12 sounds unbelievable close this BMW's V12!
Here is couple of samples!
Diablo SV, best part 1,20->

Diablo acceleration, I love the gearchanging part, AH so rough and...AH!

And YES! Hear this SVR Diablo from SPA.
Absoulutely stunning sound!!!!!!

That's why for me; McLaren F1 specialty GTR and LM sounds and Lamborghini Diablo's sounds are the top 2 sounds ever if we are talking about big fuel injected V12's!
Then if the discusion ends up to carburator engines....
The old Lambo's 6 twin carburatored V12 3,9 or 4,7 litre versions, Oh, My, God.

Sorry abit off topic now, but really incredible same sounds offers the early Diablo and McLaren F1's BMW V12. Fantastic!

[carbuilder2002]

Hence the 6 to 8mpg fuel consumption of #16R

[simmypam]

If one opted for the LM engine and HDF kit, did the factory keep the standard bodywork to prevent the owner from re-fitting the original pieces?

And

If one hired an independent professional to raise the rev-limit on the car, would the factory refuse to work on it? Or, would they simply re-set the limiter when it went in for service?

[Sami Aaltonen]

I have watched that XP5's top speed record run now about 10 times. One of the best clips to show the superb engine sound of that BMW V12.
Le Man; you're right, it's one of the best ever V12's! Even not "race spec"!
Clean, simple and powerfull!

Here is the question:
Is there anywhere any else clips of THIS McLaren Channel's an exelent clip?! Or any else material, images, stories or anything about this historic case??!

When McLaren automotive's site was unchanged, there was a story about that day, when they did the record, but is there anything else, like track side views..XP5 going past around 350kmh+?!

I't quite amazing how fast the car is..... The acceleration is incredbile, even after 350kmh!

[Sami Aaltonen]

A question of gearboxes.
Recently I read one of the 1995 Vauhdin Maailma magazines that Ray Bellm told that after an four hour race, the GTR's gearbox starts to be quite "end".

So is that true; how long the 1995-1996 GTR's gearboxes holded on?
Changed after every four hour race or does it holded on longer?

If they ran Le Mans these same gearboxes (some things changed, as we know), then this article might be something wrong. Okey, there were lots of gearbox problems, gear selection problems and clutch problems, not just the Le Mans race, but how is this case?

[Sami Aaltonen]

I've just discussed with my friend about this Wikipedia GTR page.

There is photograff of #27R, with those register plates.
And also there is that image text which you can read that it's road legal.

But as we all know it isn't (or then I have missed something a big time!).
Why those days the current owner put those registerplates in it on that show?
Have this any thoughts anyone?

I have asked this earlier, I think; but let's ask again.

And who is behind this great detailed Wikipedia page of McLaren F1 GTR?
Very much close detail informations!
Just one error so far, that #27R image text.

[hurstg01]

Originally Posted by Sami Aaltonen

I've just discussed with my friend about this Wikipedia GTR page.

There is photograff of #27R, with those register plates.
And also there is that image text which you can read that it's road legal.

But as we all know it isn't (or then I have missed something a big time!).
Why those days the current owner put those registerplates in it on that show?
Have this any thoughts anyone?

I have asked this earlier, I think; but let's ask again.

And who is behind this great detailed Wikipedia page of McLaren F1 GTR?
Very much close detail informations!
Just one error so far, that #27R image text.

That picture was taken at Goodwood's Festival of Speed - the number plate had been on that car for a while; it was for a time actually registered to IIRC an Audi estate. I presume the CI = Cars International....No longtail GTR has been road registered

[Sami Aaltonen]

OK all clear!

[hurstg01]

Originally Posted by hurstg01

Q: Who drove each Mclaren F1 GTR over the finish line at Le Mans in 1995?

Found the answers -

Winner - #01R - Dalmas
3rd - #06R - Wallace
4th - #02R - Sala
5th - #07R - Grouillard
13th - #05R - Maury-Laribiere