600+awhp EVO vs 667rwhp Cobra vs 300 shot Camaro

[Tunafish]

Originally Posted by Elk

The 7.0 liter ZO6 Corvette makes 505 HP get 26 MPGs and weighs 3152 lbs STOCK.

Where is Honda 505 HP 3152 lbs 26 MPG getting sports car? Oh that right they don’t make one.

Of course you live in import land where things like cost, practicality and actual performance don’t matter, no in your word it’s all about HP per liter.

Well , it's funny because you underline stock like that weight is amazing or something, well it's not. There is some car out there that gets no respect, which is a shame, because if you studied everything about the car and had followed it throught it's history, you would know that it is one of the greatest cars ever built, it's called the Honda NSX, and the Type-R version weighs 2800 pounds STOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the 1992 model weighs even less, the NSX-R cost around 70,000 dollars, and well that's not much more than the Corvette considering that the NSX will last more than twice as long as the Corvette.The NSX definately will not keep up in the straights but in braking and corner entry(notice i don't say in corner exit because the Corvette has 200+ more Horsepower) and also the NSX is not cheaply built. Don't even get into cost because you can modify any car in the world, but Imports stock cost is less. Example, 2nd gen. Toyota MR2 Turbo, weighs around 2900 pounds, 200 horsepower stock, 0-60 in about 6 seconds, price: for a 93 good condition with very low miles, about 8000-10000. Well, then you have the 50,000 dollars you saved from not buying the Corvette, and with that much money to put into an MR2, well it would easily beat the Corvette in every performence statistic. So you see, i live in Import land where cost definately matters, cars are lighter, way better built, better engineered, performe better in ways that matter, and if they don't beat a 500 horsepower Corvette in a straight line, they can be modified with very little money, and if you know what your doing, it will not affect the realiability, cars last longer, and well don't get very much respect where i live, because i live in America, the transmisions are much stronger and the gear ratios are a million times better, um if Corvette's had 3000000 horsepower, they could do 300 miles an hour in sixth gear, how sad oh, and in Import land, technology is VERY important

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by Tunafish

you would know that it is one of the greatest cars ever built, it's called the Honda NSX, and the Type-R version weighs 2800 pounds STOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow...that's so interesting..NOT. My Mustang is that much. The Corvette Blue Devil is that much.

Originally Posted by Tunafish

Toyota MR2 Turbo, weighs around 2900 pounds, 200 horsepower stock, 0-60 in about 6 seconds, price: for a 93 good condition with very low miles, about 8000-10000. Well, then you have the 50,000 dollars you saved from not buying the Corvette, and with that much money to put into an MR2, well it would easily beat the Corvette in every performence statistic.

You know I can do that too. I can take my 5.0 Mustang and with less money turn it into a screamer.

Originally Posted by Tunafish

So you see, i live in Import land where cost definately matters, cars are lighter, way better built, better engineered, performe better in ways that matter, and if they don't beat a 500 horsepower Corvette in a straight line, they can be modified with very little money, and if you know what your doing, it will not affect the realiability, cars last longer, and well don't get very much respect where i live, because i live in America, the transmisions are much stronger and the gear ratios are a million times better, um if Corvette's had 3000000 horsepower, they could do 300 miles an hour in sixth gear, how sad oh, and in Import land, technology is VERY important

What Japanease car can even match the new Corvette? I mean honestly lets be real here. You're only fooling yourself with this rambling on.

Nurburgring Nordschleife lap times

1. Porsche Carrera GT 7:32
2. Chevy Corvette Z06 7:42
3. Porsche 996 GT2 7:42
4. Pagani Zonda S 7:44
5. Lamborghini Murcielago 7:50
6. Lamborghini Gallardo 7:52
7. Mercedes-McLaren SLR 7:52
8. Chevy Corvette C6 7:59
9. Porsche 911 8:07
10. Dodge Viper GTS 8:10

Yeah I don't know about you but I don't see one EVO, STi, 350Z, Honda, or any Japanease car on there. YEAH! Looks like you prooved us wrong with the Corvette being thrown together in a shitty manner along with the engine compared to the "better" Japanease makers.

[nastyNater]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Nurburgring Nordschleife lap times

1. Porsche Carrera GT 7:32
2. Chevy Corvette Z06 7:42
3. Porsche 996 GT2 7:42
4. Pagani Zonda S 7:44
5. Lamborghini Murcielago 7:50
6. Lamborghini Gallardo 7:52
7. Mercedes-McLaren SLR 7:52
8. Chevy Corvette C6 7:59
9. Porsche 911 8:07
10. Dodge Viper GTS 8:10

Yeah I don't know about you but I don't see one EVO, STi, 350Z, Honda, or any Japanease car on there. YEAH! Looks like you prooved us wrong with the Corvette being thrown together in a shitty manner along with the engine compared to the "better" Japanease makers.

Holy crap...you just compared production cars to supercars that are COMPLETELY out of the price range. You know what???? Let me put that extra 100 grand into the suspension and drivetrain of an STi and your AWD Porsche will be falling on its face. GUARANTEED.

Still probably rather have the Porsche though...

[JekylandHyde]

This hole debate has to be one of hte most pointless ones I have read in quite a while.

Maybe you all could breathe for a moment and read this:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=437474

Beating each other up over which car is better is pointless.

With enough time and money anything can be made to do anything. So why argue about it?

[alphalanos]

its the people who argue that are the ignorant ones. if you really like something, then it doesnt matter what others say about it.

oh btw that video was awesome

[Muscletang]

I guess I'll make a post explaining myself.

I really don't hate imports (so we're clear when I say this I mean Japanease automakers). The thing is I've let a few bad eggs taint my image of them (many of us call these people "typical ricers" the ones that down all American cars and praise anything that comes from Japan).

Now I've gotten better and I wasn't the anti-Japanease guy I was when I first joined these forums.

I've gotten better and I've learn that if that's what you want to go fast, and you can do it, power to ya man.

The thing is on the last post that guy was making out that any Japanease car was made better, and overall better than a Corvette. That's a big leap of faith he was trying to take. You have to give credit where credit is due.
Now if he didn't mean to say that I'm sorry for jumping to a conclusion and I'm sorry if I came off as harsh.

I know I use to hate Supras with a passion because I thought all the owners and fans were a bunch of dicks. I've learned though that for what it is it isn't a bad car and it deserves some repect for what it did.
I also know though that despit what most say it isn't the greatest car ever.
I also know the same goes for Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, or any other American car.

Now as for this EVO in this video. I'm probably one of the biggest '03 Cobra fans there are and I'll just say it, they got beat by a faster car. Now I could jump up and down saying "well it wasn't from a 30 mph roll..." "they weren't going backwards..." but I'm not. The EVO was faster.
I just don't understand why some of the EVO fans have a hard time saying that about the Camaro.

Now I'd like to also add that it was impressive that he got that thing to run 10s. The thing is, he isn't the only one who can do it. Muscle cars were running 10s back in the 60's.
So both sides can, and will, do it.

I think this just backs up J&H's post. I don't hate certain cars, I just hate the stupid people associated with those cars.

[SuperHighOutput]

Tunafish, as an import owner and import enthusiast as well as a car enthusiast in general, I am kindly asking you to try to be a little more objective.

[Elk]

Tunafish
The normal version of the Corvette outperforms the NSX in every way, not just acceleration. The ZO6 would own the NSX.

The reason I underlined stock is because I’m talk about STOCK cars, not some fantasy MR2 that you could only build for less then the ZO6 Corvette if the labor was free and it still wouldn’t run on pump gas, wouldn’t get 26 MPGs and wouldn’t have a warranty. Also the MR2 isn’t a very practical car stock it only has 6 cubic feet of cargo space, the Corvette has 22.

The Corvette uses technology to get actual performance, not to chase some magic HP per liter number that’s meaningless when it comes to actual performance.

JekylandHyde
I don’t hate imports, but I am sick of these “HP per liter” ricer morons.

[karll]

Originally Posted by Elk

Tunafish
The normal version of the Corvette outperforms the NSX in every way, not just acceleration. The ZO6 would own the NSX.

The reason I underlined stock is because I’m talk about STOCK cars, not some fantasy MR2 that you could only build for less then the ZO6 Corvette if the labor was free and it still wouldn’t run on pump gas, wouldn’t get 26 MPGs and wouldn’t have a warranty. Also the MR2 isn’t a very practical car stock it only has 6 cubic feet of cargo space, the Corvette has 22.

The Corvette uses technology to get actual performance, not to chase some magic HP per liter number that’s meaningless when it comes to actual performance.

JekylandHyde
I don’t hate imports, but I am sick of these “HP per liter” ricer morons.

hmm, i like this guy.

[Tunafish]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Wow...that's so interesting..NOT. My Mustang is that much. The Corvette Blue Devil is that much.

ummmm...every heard of sarcasim???....



You know I can do that too. I can take my 5.0 Mustang and with less money turn it into a screamer.

No not with less money you can't.


What Japanease car can even match the new Corvette? I mean honestly lets be real here. You're only fooling yourself with this rambling on.

Someone else was saying that the stanard Corvette would beat an NSX, that is the stupidist thing i've ever heard. The NSX-R would watse the Corvette in cornering and in braking, and the NSX Type-S Zero can complete the quarter mile in just 12.4 seconds and with so much grip, kill the Corvette of the line, even though the Corvette has 100+ more horsepower.

Nurburgring Nordschleife lap times

1. Porsche Carrera GT 7:32
2. Chevy Corvette Z06 7:42What's the B stand for??
3. Porsche 996 GT2 7:42
4. Pagani Zonda S 7:44
5. Lamborghini Murcielago 7:50
6. Lamborghini Gallardo 7:52
7. Mercedes-McLaren SLR 7:52
8. Chevy Corvette C6 7:59
9. Porsche 911 8:07
10. Dodge Viper GTS 8:10

Yeah I don't know about you but I don't see one EVO, STi, 350Z, Honda, or any Japanease car on there. YEAH! Looks like you prooved us wrong with the Corvette being thrown together in a shitty manner along with the engine compared to the "better" Japanease makers.

Well, actually the NSX-R can complete the old Nurburgring in 7:56, and since that was done by Best Motoring , it wasn't on that list. So, i did prove you wrong.

[Tunafish]

actually, thinking about it, the Skyline, Evo, and STI Spec-C all had laptimes near or under 8:00, minutes ,so i think that list is rigued. Just found that kinda funny

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Tunafish

Well, actually the NSX-R can complete the old Nurburgring in 7:56, and since that was done by Best Motoring , it wasn't on that list. So, i did prove you wrong.

You didn’t prove anyone wrong. The reason the Best Motoring time isn’t in there is because they started there stopwatch after the NSX left the start/finish and stopped it before the NSX crossed the start/finish line. If there time was legit it would be on there. Also wasn’t Best Motoring time for the normal NSX 8.16?

Originally Posted by Tunafish

actually, thinking about it, the Skyline, Evo, and STI Spec-C all had laptimes near or under 8:00, minutes ,so i think that list is rigued.

Spec-Cs are not real production cars. You can’t walk into your local Subaru dealership and order a Spec-C STI.

[flatlander757]

Even if it DID do it in 7:56... it's only marginally in front of the BASE Corvette

[Tunafish]

Originally Posted by Elk

You didn’t prove anyone wrong. The reason the Best Motoring time isn’t in there is because they started there stopwatch after the NSX left the start/finish and stopped it before the NSX crossed the start/finish line. If there time was legit it would be on there. Also wasn’t Best Motoring time for the normal NSX 8.16?


Spec-Cs are not real production cars. You can’t walk into your local Subaru dealership and order a Spec-C STI.

Actually, Spec C's ARE real production cars in Japan, you can walk into a Subaru delearship and buy one in Japan.

Oh, and flatlander, the Corvette has 100+ more horsepower than the NSX, and the Corvette needs a 6 liter V8 to make 400 horsepower, but the NSX only needs 3.2 liter V6 to make 290 horsepower.

[curtis73]

Originally Posted by Elk

Other then the replacing rotor and distributer what would need to be done to it, for it to make it 200,000 miles? Pushrod engines are inherently more reliable then the OHC engines the imports use. A 9.3 liter V8 making 720 HP isn’t working as hard as a 1.8 liter I4 making 150 HP plus the V8 would spend most of it’s time running at much lower RPMs. Reliability improving thing like better machining, computer aided design, the quality and types of metals used and gasket material have been applied to this engine.

In part I agree with what you say, but the bottom line is that all manufacturers source out their parts to the lowest bidder who still meets the criteria. In the case of the GM, their standards are a bit lower, especially in the case of the 572. Everything about it screams low budget. The tolerances they accepted to get the profit under their feet is shameful. To answer your first question; to get that engine to last 200k I would do several things. 1) replace the junk rods with something that won't develop stress fractures in 20k. I've seen piles of them at machine shops just ready to be scrapped. 2) develop decent bearings. Even the best bearings for BBC are still based on old technology. V-configured engines stil settle for a certain level of copper to dampen cross-vibrations. No one has made the engineering jump to gold-based alloys because they're expensive. But they can provide a more reliable base while retaining their damping abilities. Again; a function of lowest bidder. If GM had raised their expectations and was willing to take $100 less profit per unit we wouldn't be discussing this. 3) Replace the gears in the oil pump with something that isn't as soft as the 3130 steel they use. 4) Not use pushrod technology. Chromemoly steel pushrods fatigue, and the intense pressures placed on even the best lifters puts wear on them and the came lobes. Rollers have all but elminated this problem, but not entirely. 5) remachine bores with a finer crosshatch to use lower friction rings. 6) Recast the block with less nickel. 7) Revise the block with a higher cam centerline and use a gear drive. 8) Revise the block with thicker cylinder walls and deck. 9) revise the heads with thicker decks and 15 degree valves. 10) lower the valvespring pressure on seat to make the lifters and cam last. 11) MPFI to eliminate the excessive cylinder washdown. 12) use needle roller cam bearings.

The problem is; why do all that? GM has established a reputation and is filling a very important market niche with this engine; low-tech race power. That engine's predecessor; the 454, wasn't designed as a 100k engine, so once its re-designed as a race engine, why should they spend millions in R&D to make it double its life when its only expected to last a handful of dragstrip passes?

The only way it would is if the V8 was using the same bearings as the I4. The number of bearings per HP doesn’t matter. The new Civic Si’s engine is putting 3 times strain on the same number bearings as the Civic, Honda made in 80's and it doesn’t make it any less reliable.

I was speaking more generally than you are. I wasn't speaking of a Civic SI versus a 572. But the fact remains that almost all mainstream V8s have five main bearings, as do typical I4s... and you might be surprised at main bearing sizes and how close they are between the two. Its also not just the bearings, but the main webs and the composition of the block. Japanese castings are typically much higher in nickel making a much harder block. That combined with differences in main web design make the playing field much more variable than your narrow comparison.

Good machining and not using cork or paper gaskets is how to prevent oil leaks, good hoses and clamps is how prevent vacuum leaks. And as far as the exhaust what difference is there between the way the exhaust manifold is bolted to a Honda I4 and GM V8? The import engine wouldn’t have any engineering advantage over the V8 because stopping leaks is basic stuff.

Its less gasket composition than you think, but again I think we're arguing the "lowest bidder" argument again. Some manufacturers standards are to make them not leak until they are out of warranty. In my tenure at GM that was the basis for every single aspect of the engineering. Contrast that with something like BMW where often times the subtle differences in gaskets and (yes) machine work on the mating surfaces will hold a flawless dry seal well past 300k. Stopping leaks on a GM means throwing the mating surface on a milling machine and calling it done. Stopping leaks according to BMW means a complex milling, resurfacing, and contouring of the mating surfaces to carefully control the pressures that are exerted on which part of the gasket. And, yes, there is a difference in how they attach a Honda I4 intake compared to a GM V8. The use of properly placed bolts provides more even clamping. The better design of the Honda intake keeps a stiffer flange. You can't think of an aluminum casting as inherently rigid. It bends and flexes as you apply the clamping force from the fasteners. It has as much to do with proper design as it does what the gasket is made of.

So your exhaust manifold just cracked, I find this hard to believe, my experience is that the exhaust has to hit some thing, and hit it very hard for the manifold to crack. How much is tons of oil, a quart every 10? 50? 100? 500? 1000?..........3000? miles.

Well, the pile of manifolds we have at work from LT1s, TBI trucks, and other GM vehicles says differently. When I removed the cracked manifold from my father's truck it fell in two pieces. Again, lowest possible bidder. The cheapest possible iron was used to cast the manifolds and they don't match the expansion of anything else. After the intense heat cycling from ambient temperature up to 1200 degrees, its a miracle that they don't crack sooner. Tons of oil is another generalization. You keep trying to quantify my descriptions.

No flames intended, just a counterpoint. I wanted to clear up my discussion since there seemed to be some misunderstandings in what I said