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Old 06-08-2012, 07:12 AM   #1
edwinn
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97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

1997 Riviera - 3.8 Liter L36 - 131,000 miles


Have owned the vehicle for 15 years with the original plugs and wires. The engine runs ok but I'm worried that PLUG WIRES may be NLA. Should have bought a set in 2010 when Delco had them in stock.

There are a few questions.

1) I've kept the plug wires in good condition by removing dirt and grime, and keeping them soft and supple with protectant 'juice.' They still look almost new (in easy-to-reach places that is) but I've never pulled the wires off any of the spark plugs. The boot-ends are rather dry and cruddy.

Is there a risk of damage to the plug connector/boot after all these years when disconnecting? I can physically reach ALL of the plugs, and can rotate the boot on each plug, so they aren't frozen. Pulling the wires from each plug seems like a risk.. of damage where the connector grabs the top of the plug. What are the downsides to doing this? (there are heat shield sleeves on the back-three plugs.)

2) How is it possible to replace the back three plugs on this engine? One can barely SEE the plugs, not to mention getting a ratchet / U-joint extension in there? It's extremely tight.

3) When its it time to replace the plugs and wires? The OM says 100k miles.


-Ed

Last edited by edwinn; 11-14-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:34 AM   #2
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

The fact that you have gone this far with original plugs/wires, is somewhat of a miracle.......

Can't remember this year.....does it have a pair of upper dog bone mounts going to the top of the radiator? If yes, then putting the ebrake on, and tranny in neutral, you can remove the dog bones and either pull the engine forward, and either tie it in this position or put a block of wood between block and firewall.....I have a tool that attaches to the mount of the dogbone, that when screwed, pullls the engine forward......

I know the "H" cars had a supprt bar that went from strut to top of stut....if this has one just remove it, makes it easier to get to plugs....

As for the plugs, I have a double ball swivel set up that easily gets to the plugs with an extension....

As for the wires, count your blessings they've lasted this long....replace them(don't go cheap).....use OEM plugs.....if coil terminals have carbon buildup, just sand clean.....use dielectric grease on plugs and coil terminals.....
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:37 PM   #3
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech II View Post
The fact that you have gone this far with original plugs/wires, is somewhat of a miracle....... Can't remember this year.....does it have a pair of upper dog bone mounts going to the top of the radiator? If yes, then putting the ebrake on, and tranny in neutral, you can remove the dog bones and either pull the engine forward, and either tie it in this position or put a block of wood between block and firewall.....I have a tool that attaches to the mount of the dogbone, that when screwed, pulls the engine forward...... I know the "H" cars had a support bar that went from strut to top of stut....if this has one just remove it, makes it easier to get to plugs.... As for the plugs, I have a double ball swivel set up that easily gets to the plugs with an extension....

As for the wires, count your blessings they've lasted this long....replace them(don't go cheap).....use OEM plugs.....if coil terminals have carbon buildup, just sand clean.....use dielectric grease on plugs and coil terminals.....
Thanks for the prompt and quality reply,

Don't know about a dog bone but there's a BIG vertical chunk of metal at the back-center of the engine with a cutout in the center. It blocks access to the back of the motor.

Let's be clear... the engine is running GREAT and not just Ok. I'll call DelcoLine and see if they still have a set but right now. I'd like to PULL the plug wires one at a time, recondition them end-to-end and reinstall. Again, the fear is that one of the connectors will break.

Sound ok?

Tell you what, will start with one on the FRONT side and see how it goes. Then either proceed.... or STOP.


-Ed


EDIT #1 - Yep they have two sets in stock!!


EDIT #2 - The front wires came off no-problem and are freshly wiped and juiced!!


I'll have to study the back three some.

Last edited by edwinn; 10-24-2013 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:44 AM   #4
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech II View Post
The fact that you have gone this far with original plugs/wires, is somewhat of a miracle.......

As for the wires, count your blessings they've lasted this long....replace them (don't go cheap).....use OEM plugs.....use dielectric grease on plugs and coil terminals.....
Thanks!!

I'll run over to the local auto store for some dielectric grease today.


You can see the WIRES are in very good condition even before 'pulling' them.





Here is cylinder #1 wire after rejuvenating!!

It's almost like new and the cable tray is totally degreased. There was a lot of black dirt under and inside that cable guide. Everything is spiffy including the transformer and plug terminals. The serrated shield is to prevent chaffing against the oil dipstick.





Number 1, 3 and 5 Wires reinstalled

Same on Cyl #5 (opposite end, see steel ring in front of valve cover to the right.) Working on the front three cylinders was easy and fun! The rear wires will be more of a challenge. The trick is not to break anything!!




It may not need new wires but I should get some (and plugs) for future replacement.


Nice huh? or am I nuts?


-Ed

Last edited by edwinn; 10-24-2013 at 06:48 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:09 AM   #5
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

Wow......have never seen a customer's engine, with that much mileage and years, that clean.....you are to be commended......

Sometimes those boots don't want to come loose, even twisting clockwise/counterclockwise........the back ones are usually worse than the front, due to heat......sometimes twisting and pulling damages the wire internally......sometimes they work ok......for awhile.....then come intermittant problems......why mess with that possibility?

I've said this before and I'll say it again....I worked for a Buick dealer, when the new Riviera came out......nice design and comfortable....what really impressed me was how solid the car was, even years later....not the usual rattles you get as vehicles get older....car had a great quiet ride....and if it had a SC, what power...the gas mileage for this car, with it's size and weight was around 30mpg, on the highway......only thing that kept it from being a really big seller, was it did not have a 4 door version.....GM in it's infinite wisdom gave that to the Aurora, which did not have the styling as the Riv, and I was not crazy about the 4.0 Northstar engine....I thought GM hit homeruns on the Riv and Bonneville......too bad they didn't market/upgrade them.......was one of the reasons for GM's downfall.......instead they developed crap that didn't sell.....

Good luck with your car.......
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:34 AM   #6
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

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Originally Posted by Tech II View Post
Wow......have never seen a customer's engine, with that much mileage and years, that clean.....you are to be commended......Sometimes those boots don't want to come loose, even twisting clockwise/counterclockwise........the back ones are usually worse than the front, due to heat......sometimes twisting and pulling damages the wire internally......sometimes they work ok......for awhile.....then come intermittent problems......why mess with that possibility?

Good luck with your car.......
Thanks Tech II, your expert advice is appreciated.

Had my heart set on a thorough inspection of wires and plugs (short of removing them from the engine) and made sketches of the routing and retainer clips months ago. Besides that.. had done the three FRONT wires a couple days previous.

Luckily nothing got broken or damaged, and the wires came off the back plugs pretty well. It could have been a LOT worse. Let's look at some pics:


Here are the aft heat shields and a retainer clip in VERY good shape.




After removing the wires, I brought them in the house where Carol was sitting, and she basically said "eeek... they're filthy." There were 2 or 3 minor nicks in Cyl #4 wire jacket about midpoint along the length but only superficial. Otherwise.. all the wires looked to be in tact and very much usable.


The three REAR wires.. reconditioned and juiced up





With all the wires reinstalled, and the FRONT three remove to add dielectric grease, it started up instantly.. and settled down to a smooth idle. Will be road testing it today.


Rear wire routing over the engine

The rear wires go over the top of the engine and through the wire clamp next to the alternator, then wire #4 crosses OVER wire #2.




From there, the group of three roll to the right (like rolling an aircraft into a dive) and go down the back through another wire clamp.




After a while you know exactly where each wire goes.. but it helps to make a diagram.


So it may not need wires at this time, but it would be wise to pick up a Delco set for future replacement.


-Ed

Last edited by edwinn; 12-04-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #7
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

Hey Tech II,

I 'm resurrecting the "Plug Wires" thread to back up the decision for keeping the original plug wires in place. This was last June.. where I made a diagram of wire routing, checked to see if each plug could be accessed, figured out what wrenches to use, learned how to undo the wire clamps, and generally inspected / treated each and every wire end-to-end.

There was no grease or dirt on the wires after this was done. They were still supple and rubbery. Contacts inside the boots were all shiny, swabbed with Deoxit juice and blown-out with air. It wasn't till August 2012 that I bought the new plugs. Almost 15 months have passed since then.


Here's a photo of the engine compartment taken last Sunday after a test drive.. which was actually a beer run!




Should have used the LED drop light to get a better photo.


-Ed

Last edited by edwinn; 10-24-2013 at 06:59 AM. Reason: clarify
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:02 AM   #8
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

In my opinion, the best 6cyl GM ever made. Of course they had some issues, but for the most part they were and are bullet proof.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:07 AM   #9
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

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In my opinion, the best 6cyl GM ever made. Of course they had some issues, but for the most part they were and are bullet proof.
That's what the Service Advisor at the dealer said. He used the same term "bulletproof." Yeah.. one of those issues is coolant leaking from the Intake Manifold. Same with my 79 Olds Cutlass.


I'll have to re-apply dielectric grease to the inside of the boots and the plug tips. Would like to keep air and moisture out of those connections to resist oxidation. Should probably take the plugs out, put some anti-cease on the threads and reinstall. That's the way it has been going with the Riv.. rework, rework, rework.


Maybe it's time to replace the wires after all.


-Ed

Last edited by edwinn; 10-24-2013 at 06:05 PM. Reason: misspell
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:11 AM   #10
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

I agree....the only problem was the size of the EGR tube coming up through the upper plenum....and the upper plenum/throttle body gaskets, had a tendency to leak......some oil seepage at the lower intake corners....more often the result of improper replacement of lower intake gaskets.....

On long road trips, it was delivering 30+ mpg in heavy cars.....

Had good response.......

But for the most part, with regular maintenance, and this engine was good to go.....

The SC'd engine was even better(didn't have the EGR issue).....also, once again great gas mileage on long trips....some oil seepage from nose of SC'er, sometimes a gasket crack between lower intake and SC'er, which caused a lean condition....otherwise, another great engine if maintained...

Another problem I just remembered, had nothing to do with the engine...misfires.....same problem on the 3.1/3.4's...carbon build up on coil terminals due to poor connection.....also there was a bulletin for carbon tracking between the wires and spark plugs....you had to replace BOTH....if you didn't, the problem would return.....

As I stated before, whenever I did a tuneup, and those wires came off hard, because of the baking effect, I automatically replaced the wires, because you could damage them.....it may not show up right away, but it will down the road.....
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:11 AM   #11
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

Back to the plugs and plug wire topic

For some shortsighted reason I installed the NEW spark plugs without anti-seize OR silicon grease.

Soon after that, and having discussion here, I bought NEW plug wires and have looked them over for quality and checked length, etc.




Close-up of the boots and connectors. NICE, but I still think the originals are ok.


New wires already had silicon grease inside the coil boots, but not the plug boots.


The wires came with a packet of silicon grease that says "apply to boot and porcelain" but no mention of the plug connections.




More Permatex goop

It looks like another 're-work' situation. I bought another tube of dielectric grease and a tube of ANTI-SEIZE.

You can see each package displays a 'spark plug' image, and the electrical goop says 'apply to both terminal and connector' ends.


Not too sure about this copper AS compound.


So the QUESTION IS..

What's the best practice? Apply Dielectric grease to the boots AND the plug electrical connections?

Sorry for the BASIC questions are, but I'd like to do it right!


-Ed

Last edited by edwinn; 12-05-2013 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:44 AM   #12
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

I just apply to the terminals of the plugs and coils, and then give a twist....the grease gets pushed enough onto the porcelain....

Too much grease, and the boot won't want too stay on the plug/coil terminal....
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:50 AM   #13
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

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I just apply to the terminals of the plugs and coils, and then give a twist....the grease gets pushed enough onto the porcelain....

Too much grease, and the boot won't want too stay on the plug/coil terminal....
Fantastic! some people can sum-up a whole topic in just a few statements.

The plugs and wires had to be put on HOLD when the fuel pump issue came up, and we're running out of warm days to work in the garage.


For you forensic types, here are the original plugs after 17 years (built Oct 1996) and 139,000+ miles. Very consistent and 'white.'


Original spark plugs in 97 Riviera at 139k have a whitish-gray color to the electrodes, and some rust on the threads and base.


There's rust on the threads (of a couple) and rust on the base of each. Good thing they came out with only moderate torque. All of the end-terminals were ok, especially after being 'wiped' with Deox juice.


These plugs should have been changed 6 or 7 years ago at 100,000 miles!


-Ed

Last edited by edwinn; 12-05-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:54 AM   #14
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

New ACDelco plug wire resistance

Have measured plug wire resistance with TWO different Craftsman DMMs. One is a manual mode type set to 20k ohms full scale, the other is 'auto scaling.'


Here are the resistance readings (plug wire number in table is NOT necessarily cylinder.)




Plug wires were: 12", 2x 22", 2x 34", and 37-1/2" in length.

Once the numbers are in a worksheet it's easy to find resistance in ohms per inch.




This is kool because I've heard several people talk about, and post about Plug Wire resistance but no actual resistance data was presented.


Interesting is the COIL boot of each wire was already 'gunked' with dielectric grease.. as discovered when sticking the Test Leads in there. The PLUG boots were dry.


-Ed

Last edited by edwinn; 11-20-2013 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:59 PM   #15
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Re: 97 Riv - spark plugs and wires

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinn View Post
New ACDelco plug wire resistance

Have measured plug wire resistance with TWO different Craftsman DMMs. One is a manual mode type set to 20k ohms full scale, the other is 'auto scaling.'


Here are the resistance readings (plug wire number in table is NOT necessarily cylinder.)




Plug wires were: 12", 2x 22", 2x 34", and 37-1/2" in length.

Once the numbers are in a worksheet it's easy to find resistance per unit length (ohms per inch that is.)




This is kool because I've heard several people talk about, and post about Plug Wire resistance but no actual resistance data was presented.


Interesting is the COIL boot of each wire was already 'gunked' with dielectric grease.. as discovered when sticking the Test Leads in there. The PLUG boots were dry.


-Ed
So you find time to do this type of stuff when you're not working at the particle accelerator?
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