Front brake rubber hose twisted?

[huynh]

Dear all,

I have these issues that I would like to post here so that I can learn from others. It may help someone.

My brother has a 2006 Lexus GS 430 that needs new front brakes (rotors and pads). A local Lexus dealer has given him a quote that was more than double of other car shops. I replaced the front brake rotors and pads for him.

While doing the works, I accidentally popped out one of the brake pistons (it has four brake pistons on each side instead of one like my 96 Buick). Then, I tried to bleed the air out of the brake line; after hours of bleeding, it still seemed there was some air in the line. The car showed two waring messages: “Check VSC” and “Check ECB”. The information from the internet (Best place to learn from!) suggested me to bring the car to dealer to reset the codes. Therefore, I gave up bleeding the air. My brother brought the car back to the dealer where he originally asked for a quote on replacing the brakes.

The dealer said the reason that I failed bleeding was that one of the brake rubber hoses twisted (closed to the brake caliper) when I re-installed it. They claimed that they had to uninstall everything to find my mistakes; so they charged $160 for that.

Also, they turned the brake rotors (ordered new from Autozone) and charged another $160. They said that even with brand new rotors coming out of their stock they still turn them before installing into the vehicles.

My questions are:

1. Is there anyway that the brake hose near the caliber twisted 360 degrees? That piece of rubber hose is too short to be twisted without my knowledge. I kept my eyes on them when I tried to bleed the air and did not see any deformity of the hoses.

2. Does the dealer have to turn the brand new rotors before installing them into the vehicle? I have never heard of this before.

I really do not think that the brake rubber hose twisted that caused symptoms like air in the hose. I also do not think that the new rotors need turning before installing. However, I am not experienced, and I need your inputs so that I can learn. Any comments would be appreciated. Please help me understand and learn from you guys.

Thank you very much!

[Blt2Lst]

I am not really familiar with the lexus brakes but i suppose it is possible to twist the brake line when reinstalling the caliper if the hose is long enough to do so. If that was the case, you could have pinched off the flow of brake fluid in the lines not allowing the air to escape when you tried to bleed the system. If that was the case, i would think the car would pull to one side when the brakes were applied giving an indication that something was wrong.
If it was twisted and the line was not damaged, all they would have to do is remove the caliper and turn it around an reinstall it.
Also the brakes on that car may require you to use a power bleeder as opposed to the pump and hold method done in your driveway.

As far as the rotors, you should not have to turn new rotors but i have had an experience with warped new rotors, i returned them for another set.
I have not had good luck with the Autozone Duralast brand rotors and drums. I had to return rotors and drums that were replaced on a friends 02 Dodge Dakota because they warped after less that 10,000 miles on them. They did refund my money but i replaced them with Raybestos made in canada parts not the made in China specials.

[huynh]

Thank you very much for such a fast reply!

The rubber end pard of the brake line should not be long enough to be twisted 360 degree without notice. However, I will intentionally twist that brake line again to be sure.

The car did not pull on one side when I took a test drive after I was done. That makes me think the air was still inside the line.

I used the “brake-and-hold” method to bleed out the air (yeah, on his driveway); and this probably was not strong enough to suck out all the air inside the line.

Thank you again!

[MagicRat]

A brake line twisted 360 deg would be hard to miss. It would coil up when twisted, and would demonstrate considerable resistance to being twisted. It is possible you did this, but it would be difficult to miss having done so.

As for machining new rotors, this is pure price gouging, imo. If the new rotors worked smoothly with no pulsing then they absolutely did not need machining. Yes, there is a slight chance that cheapo new rotors might be slightly warped when new. But I do NOT buy that excuse from the dealer that they machine the new ones. They should be using genuine Toyota/Lexus parts, which (one would hope) are much better tha average. If they really do such machining, then they are ripping off all their customers, by doing either unnecessary work or by selling cheapo parts to customers at premium prices.

[huynh]

"A brake line twisted 360 deg would be hard to miss." <== You are right! Today, I used a piece of 4" rubber hose (a bit longer than the hose in the vehicle) and two pliers and tried to twist it 360 degrees to show that it would not be easy to make that mistake as claimed by the dealer.

Oh, my brother ordered the rotors from Autozone. We do understand that we did want cheaper stuff, but that was our choice.

The Lexus dealer did not install the parts. They just turned the brand new rotors and charged my brother without telling him up front though.

Same here, I do think that my brother got ripped off by the dealer. The only thing that we can do now is to avoid it, imo.

Thank you very, very much for the supportive comments and for your time!

[jdmccright]

The dealer does the turning on new rotors to keep customers from coming back in the event that a new rotor is warped, but I don't think they should charge for it. All rotors (new or used) are supposed to be checked for run-out, which is easier done on the lathe than on the vehicle since some require new bearing races to be installed first. It is just a time-saving step for them, and something they can bill you for...which sucks.

As for the twisted brake line, if the line was attached incorrectly, such as the banjo fitting was flipped, then it might kink. But as mentioned, it will usually be readily apparent when you try to reinstall the caliper either by sight or by feel. For jobs on cars you're not familiar with, a digital camera can be invaluable for taking "before" pictures to refer to when things don't go back together like you think they should.

Hope this helps!

[huynh]

Thank you for another lesson!

I have done brake jobs for 17 years. However, I just do it on driveways. And this is the second time I got to bleed the air (the first time ever I tried to do brake job, I intentionally took the brake piston out to see what inside. Dump! ) I did not touch the banjo fitting as I kept the brake hoses and calipers together the whole time.

You are right! A digital camera is one of my best tools to work on cars. It saved my life many times before!

[huynh]

First thing is you can not replace a pressured brake line with rubber hose, the rubber hose will not hold the pressure caused when applying your brakes. you need a pressure couplet with enough line the length to replace the broken line. Any auto store will help you with the couplet and explain how to fix it.

Hi,
I did not replace the pressured brake line with a rubber hose. There was nothing wrong with it. I just used a 4 in. rubber hose to prove that I could not twist it 360 degrees.

[huynh]

Hi,
I did not replace the pressured brake line with a rubber hose. There was nothing wrong with it. I just used a 4 in. rubber hose to prove that I could not twist it 360 degrees.

[shorod]

I've been keeping quiet on this thread because without being there or having first-hand knowledge on the car in question it's difficult to really say what likely happened. It dawned on me though that you were trying to twist the hose radially 360 degrees. That's probably not what the dealership was suggesting. If you rotate the caliper 360 degrees and install it, the rubber brake hose will form a loop, it won't actually twist the hose 360 degrees radially. But that contradicts another comment above where you indicate the 4 inch piece of hose you used as an example is slightly longer than what's on the car. I can't imagine any application where the flexible hose from the wheel well to the caliper is less than 4 inches long. Is there a mounting bracket near the caliper that makes that section of rubber hose less than 4 inches between the bracket and the banjo fitting? If that's that case, I would agree with the early comments in post #2 above, it would be possible to twist the hose and pinch off the flow to the caliper. The clamp would have a good grip on the hose and the caliper would serve as a good lever allowing you to twist the hose much more easily than what you could do with a pair of pliers. Brake hose is resistant to pressure but not as resistant to collapse. If you used a piece of vacuum hose that is resistant to collapse as your demonstrator it may yield different results from what a brake hose would, on top of the difference in leverage.

The bottom line is if you do not trust the dealership, find a different one/shop and don't go back. Without knowing all the facts here I cannot suggest that either you or they did something incorrectly.

-Rod

[MasterTechA.P.E.]

Not to rain on the parade. but it is very easy to get in a rush and mount the caliper with a twist in the hose. I've seen this twice very recently. The guy that makes that mistake is the same ones that blow out the brake dust, hang calipers and fail to lubricate the parts. Take your time and think through every step because someones life may depend on it.

[shadows]

Originally Posted by MasterTechA.P.E.

Not to rain on the parade. but it is very easy to get in a rush and mount the caliper with a twist in the hose. I've seen this twice very recently. The guy that makes that mistake is the same ones that blow out the brake dust, hang calipers and fail to lubricate the parts. Take your time and think through every step because someones life may depend on it.

as a MasterTech- some good points here- some terrible-
don't think you have removed very many calipers