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Old 09-17-2004, 08:49 PM   #16
k3smostwanted
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same here freak..i have seen one that had rust on the rear hatch and needed a new front bumper and a new paint job for 8,000 once.
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Old 09-17-2004, 09:21 PM   #17
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

Quote:
Originally Posted by k3smostwanted
same here freak..i have seen one that had rust on the rear hatch and needed a new front bumper and a new paint job for 8,000 once.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I should count myself very fortunate, then.

I did forget to mention that my Bose system is DOA, though. It is the only flaw in an otherwise pristine car. I bought N.A. speaker brackets and harness bypasses to mount a new deck in the car as I understand keeping teh Bose repaired is a losing proposition.

Bob
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Old 09-17-2004, 11:41 PM   #18
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

Stay on the Swap topic guys... I dont know why they charge so much, Im in no way at all associated with them, so dont ask me.

-Wes
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Old 09-18-2004, 08:12 PM   #19
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

If your going to go to all the trouble of swaping engines, why not install a VH45DE? If you use the VH45DE bellhousing it well bolt right up to the VG30DETT transmission. Now you have a engine 100lbs lighter, more HP and touque and it's NA. If you want to see what it can do go here.
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/...nitiengine.php
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Old 09-18-2004, 08:37 PM   #20
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Itemized list of why not:

1. Because the TT is a direct drop in and parts for it both OEM and performance are everywhere.

2. Because even though I haven't researched this, I'm pretty damn sure TT engines are easier to find and cheaper than VH45s not to mention a lot easier to swap. Low cost and ease being two of the biggest draws to TT swapping.

3. Because with some simple bolt on mods that you can do while you swap, you can make alot of power with the TT engine. Enough to negate the higher initial output you get by swapping a VH45 and cheaper as well.

4. Because even the race prepped VH shown there was making a "mere" 450hp. I can get that out of a TT much easier. And to go beyond that with an NA requires either even more uber expensive engine work (like custom made cam profiles), nitrous (as in 1/4 mile or less) or turbo charging (requiring you to lower the 10.5:1 compression of the VH at a huge expense). Think of it this way, with both engines in stock trim the VH only makes another 40hp and 50 lbs of torque despite having 150% of the displacement the VG does not to mention ten more years of technology to draw from.

5. Because the only reason to do this swap is the unique factor for a show car or someone with way too much money for their own good.

6. Because this thread is about providing info for those looking to do the TT swap and why for the most part, its not a good idea. There is other threads about the merits of various other swaps.
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Old 09-18-2004, 11:18 PM   #21
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

I agree with Broke on this one... VH45DE may be unique and all... But shit, lots of work. And you can boost up more power out of a VG30DETT.

-Wes
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Old 09-19-2004, 12:13 PM   #22
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

broke gave a really good list, but i have to add one thing:

7. the 300zx was made to have a vg, and that is what i (and many others) would plan to keep in there.
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Old 09-19-2004, 12:35 PM   #23
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Like you say, this thread is 'bout a TT swap but alot of NA owners and TT owners with blown engines or whatever do have other options.

1. Right, the TT is a direct dropin for a NA and parts, no problem. This would be my first choice.

2. Wrong, the VH45DE, VH41DE and VK45DE are used in most of the Infiniti cars plus in the Nissan trucks and SUV's. As for price, a Z32 TT clip runs around $2,500 to $3,800 whereas the VH45DE is around $850, being more available. Supply and demand crap.

3. Wrong, the cost of the clip plus the upgrades to match the performance of the VH45 would be:
VG30TT
a. $2,500 TT frontend clip
b. $1,200 good exhaust
c. $500 upgrade ECU
d. $200 POP intake
Total $4,400 give or take a few hundred

VH45DE
a. $850 VH45DE engine
b. $100 stock bellhousing from VH45 engine to VG30 transmission
c. $1,000 ECU and wireing harness for VH45
d. $300 4 row radiator
e. $500 for fab motor mounts and odds an ends
Total $2,750 give or take a few hundred

4. Wrong, the race prepped VH45 engine with a "mere" 450 HP only had a POP intake and headers with 3" exhaust, no cats. To go beyond, quite simple. Put a Eaton M112 supercharger with a 130 F Delta output temp @10 boost. and 650HP with a cost of $1,500. And we still haven't opened the engine yet.
What does it cost to make this much power from a VG30 engine.
And were forgetting that the VH45 is 100lbs. lighter than a VG30 engine. The Z32 is alittle on the heavy side.

5. Kinda right, it would be a unique swap, but engineering wise, the swap would make the car lighter with the ability to make more power if you chose to go that route. As for having to much money, they would save plus have a newer engineered engine still in production, and it is NISSAN.

6. You couldn't be more correct. This tread is 'bout swaping a TT and not a VH45. And I wouldn't suggest anyone doing a VH45 swap unless they had the knowledge and ability to do it.

As for myself I want both, I'm not greedy, I just love the Z's. My intention wasn't to muddy the waters, but to add another choice. Life is all a matter of choices, some good and some not so.

See you at the finish line.
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Old 09-19-2004, 05:50 PM   #24
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zgringo
1. Right, the TT is a direct dropin for a NA and parts, no problem. This would be my first choice.
Because it makes alot more sense.

Quote:
2. Wrong, the VH45DE, VH41DE and VK45DE are used in most of the Infiniti cars plus in the Nissan trucks and SUV's. As for price, a Z32 TT clip runs around $2,500 to $3,800 whereas the VH45DE is around $850, being more available. Supply and demand crap.
I don't know where you are getting your Z32 TT clips from but you are getting ripped off. Importers can get them for less than $1500. And I doubt anyone is going to sell you a clean low mileage front end off a late model Q45 for less than that.

Quote:
3. Wrong, the cost of the clip plus the upgrades to match the performance of the VH45 would be:
VG30TT
a. $2,500 TT frontend clip
b. $1,200 good exhaust
c. $500 upgrade ECU
d. $200 POP intake
Total $4,400 give or take a few hundred
Again, I don't know where you are getting your parts but you are getting ripped off. Check out z1motorsports.com, and their basic power package to get you to a stage 3 Z32 TT. $1100 bucks shipped. Plus the cost of the clip that we didn't get ripped off on and you got a hell of alot less then you are quoting here.

Quote:
VH45DE
a. $1500 VH45DE engine
b. $100 stock bellhousing from VH45 engine to VG30 transmission
c. $1,000 ECU and wireing harness for VH45
d. $300 4 row radiator
e. $1000 for fab motor mounts and odds an ends
f. $1500 for labor on the swap
Total $5,300 give or take a few hundred
So in this case we'll add a bit to make your numbers more realistic and keeping in mind that while the TT swap is fairly easy as swaps go because the engine was designed to be in the car, 96.34% of people will have to source an outside shop to swap the VH, and we are over double the VGs number and the VG is a turbo and thus can be made to make more power alot easier. Because this is not a car the VH was meant to be in you'll have to fab your own exhaust and thats not too bad however, I think the tuning world is still waiting on the fab your own headers at home kit. Not to mention you have to get another 1300 rpms out of the VH to make that 450hp.

Quote:
4. Wrong, the race prepped VH45 engine with a "mere" 450 HP only had a POP intake and headers with 3" exhaust, no cats. To go beyond, quite simple. Put a Eaton M112 supercharger with a 130 F Delta output temp @10 boost. and 650HP with a cost of $1,500. And we still haven't opened the engine yet.
What does it cost to make this much power from a VG30 engine.
And were forgetting that the VH45 is 100lbs. lighter than a VG30 engine. The Z32 is alittle on the heavy side.
And I would really like to see you run that 10psi of boost on 10.5:1 compression for more than a half hour, VH factory forged bits not withstanding. That and I dont' see how you are going to be able to make a custom set of headers for the VH in the Z32 and custom 3" exhaust plus all the supercharging work for 1500. So with the supercharger ruled out and a full exhaust system and intake done you got what you can do with a NA engine? Underdrive pulley? Changing the oil? And you are already far past the VG in price without anywhere really left to go.

Quote:
5. Kinda right, it would be a unique swap, but engineering wise, the swap would make the car lighter with the ability to make more power if you chose to go that route. As for having to much money, they would save plus have a newer engineered engine still in production, and it is NISSAN.
They wouldn't save, and dropping this much cash to cut 100 pounds on a car that is over 3000lbs is somewhat of a drop in the bucket. Yeah you would see an improvement, just as you would if you spent all this money on other things.

Quote:
6. You couldn't be more correct. This tread is 'bout swaping a TT and not a VH45. And I wouldn't suggest anyone doing a VH45 swap unless they had the knowledge and ability to do it.
Which rules out 96.34% of the human race and just about everyone here. And if you can do all this by yourself then I direct you here

Quote:
As for myself I want both, I'm not greedy, I just love the Z's. My intention wasn't to muddy the waters, but to add another choice. Life is all a matter of choices, some good and some not so.
Like a VH swap for example.

Quote:
See you at the finish line.
Yep, hope you like my stock USDM tail lights.
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Old 09-19-2004, 06:27 PM   #25
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

Ahh... Here it comes... Hes flying in... Its the 'ownage bird'... Hes here to tell you, that you have just been OWNED.

-Wes
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Old 09-19-2004, 09:55 PM   #26
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

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Old 09-20-2004, 02:17 AM   #27
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Re: Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

I'm with Zgringo on this one guys. Its not the best idea for Z newbies, but for someone with the know how (or the cash) its probably a better idea than a TT swap. Also, apologies in advance for the huge post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broke_as_****
Because it makes alot more sense.
In what sense of the word sense?
People have called me crazy (and probably still do) for my VG30DE swap, but I now have an engine that (when I've thrown a few more thousand at it) will kill 96.34% of VG30ETs out there.

The one thing that most car enthusiasts don't consider is the torque (and hence power) curve. Everyone I speak to just looks at peak torque (and power) output. The real judge of an engine's performance is the area under that curve. A flatter curve means more area. I would prefer to have a very flat power curve peaking at 300hp than a very steep curve peaking at 400hp. Fuck the bragging rights, this is my real personal opinion.

This is of course entirely subjective (as I have stated its my own personal desire), so if anyone wants to argue with me over this, get fucked.

As for whether or not a custom swap is worth the money, that again is entirely subjective.


Quote:
I don't know where you are getting your Z32 TT clips from but you are getting ripped off. Importers can get them for less than $1500. And I doubt anyone is going to sell you a clean low mileage front end off a late model Q45 for less than that.
Yeah real objective here. Comparing the importer's cost on a Z32 clip (which is obviously going to be substantially less than what the consumer would get it for) to the consumer cost on a 'low milage' 'late model' Q45 clip (which is probably going to be the most expensive option for the swap). What are you doing wasting your time on these message boards? You should be in politics.

All things being even, you should be comparing the average consumer cost on a 'low milage' z32 clip, with the consumer cost on a 'low milage' 1990-1996 Q45 (seeing as the 'late model' Q45 has the VK45DE). Not to mention other Nissan and Infiniti cars also have the VH45DE, which you may get a clip for cheaper.

Not having ever been to the united states, I would not have a fucking clue as to what price they both go for over there, so I am not going to comment on the 'revised' costs to the consumer.


Quote:
Again, I don't know where you are getting your parts but you are getting ripped off. Check out z1motorsports.com, and their basic power package to get you to a stage 3 Z32 TT. $1100 bucks shipped. Plus the cost of the clip that we didn't get ripped off on and you got a hell of alot less then you are quoting here.
Ok, going off the consumer cost of the clip which I'd say starting price of $1500 (and I doubt that that engine would be producing the 300hp it was born with) and adding on that $1100 for the package, we still haven't made the $4400 Zgringo was estimating. However, considering we are talking about a newbie installing these, we also have to consider the labour costs of installing the TT engine (which Zgringo forgot about). Getting closer.
Now even if we take the highest hp figure quoted on z1motorsports (which is no doubt going to be at least be slightly inflated to increase sales) of 350rwhp, taking into account a 20% drivetrain loss, we're looking at around 437hp. Not only do I call bullshit on this one, but we're still less than that 450hp we were aiming for yeah?


Quote:
So in this case we'll add a bit to make your numbers more realistic and keeping in mind that while the TT swap is fairly easy as swaps go because the engine was designed to be in the car, 96.34% of people will have to source an outside shop to swap the VH, and we are over double the VGs number and the VG is a turbo and thus can be made to make more power alot easier. Because this is not a car the VH was meant to be in you'll have to fab your own exhaust and thats not too bad however, I think the tuning world is still waiting on the fab your own headers at home kit. Not to mention you have to get another 1300 rpms out of the VH to make that 450hp.
I miss your logic here. the VG30DETT is indeed a turbo, but when we're at the limit of the injectors and street fuel, I fail to see how its easier to make more power. We're going to have to start changing the pistons to lower compression if we want to increase the boost but keep running street fuel, which is what we're going to have to do to the VH45DE to make it turbo/supercharged anyway.

My exhaust fabrication cost me $2000 AUD (probably about $1500 USD) and it was apparently the hardest headers the exhaust place has ever had to make. Now, considering that they are tuned-length headers (the single most effective power gain for a naturally aspirated car apart from turbos or nitrous) we've also scored about 20-50 more ponies for the VH45DE (depending on other factors like cam overlap, the design of the headers etc.). I doubt the headers would have been as hard to make as my set either, considering the VH45DE and the VG30DETT would have around the same width (and hence roughly the same engine bay clearance.)

Even if we had to change the rev limiter (or remove it) I again fail to see your point. I really doubt that we're going to get any substantial valve float 1300rpm more than stock. Even if we do, we'd change the valve springs (and of course while we're there, get some more aggressive cams. You cant argue with your own reasoning. )


Quote:
And I would really like to see you run that 10psi of boost on 10.5:1 compression for more than a half hour, VH factory forged bits not withstanding. That and I dont' see how you are going to be able to make a custom set of headers for the VH in the Z32 and custom 3" exhaust plus all the supercharging work for 1500. So with the supercharger ruled out and a full exhaust system and intake done you got what you can do with a NA engine? Underdrive pulley? Changing the oil? And you are already far past the VG in price without anywhere really left to go.
You have a point here. If we wanted to supercharge it, we're looking at either race fuel (or beyond) or changing the pistons. A decomp plate would probably work just as well though, and cost us quite a bit less. Regardless, we're going to have to change the VG30DETT's pistons or whatnot if we want to run more than 15psi at stock TT compression anyway.


Quote:
They wouldn't save, and dropping this much cash to cut 100 pounds on a car that is over 3000lbs is somewhat of a drop in the bucket. Yeah you would see an improvement, just as you would if you spent all this money on other things.
As I've pointed out, its probably not as much money as you claim. Regardless, if may cost a bit more but overall its probably going to give a much better torque curve, with more room for performance mods later.

After you've changed the pistons, if you had a VH45DETT and a VG30DETT next to each other, exactly the same mods on each, the VH is obviously going to decimate the VG30DETT. A little bit more initial outlay, and you've got yourself a more efficient engine and a better base horsepower to start building on. This was my reasoning on the VG30DE swap in my Z31 and I still stand by it.

Quote:
Which rules out 96.34% of the human race and just about everyone here. And if you can do all this by yourself then I direct you here
Thats fair enough. Its just another option to consider. He isn't telling everyone to go out and do it, he's just saying 'hey, heres an idea, you can decide if you want to do it or not.'

Quote:
Like a VH swap for example.
Financially, even a TT swap is a stupid idea when you can trade in a NA for TT for less money. Some things are more important than money though.

Quote:
Yep, hope you like my stock USDM tail lights.
My stock Z31 taillights look better as I'm sure lltz will agree.

Don't take this as a flame, I'm just not going to stand by while people try and put Zgringo down for what I consider a reasonable idea for at least a few enthusiasts out there.

Cheers,
-Mike
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:34 AM   #28
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Alright this is getting ridiculously huge so I'll summarize:

The whole idea behind this thread and what I've been saying from the begining is that its a damnsite easier and usually cheaper for most people just to buy a TT car in the first place. However, there was some references listed incase the given person was just too attached to their car, wanted to do the work for the work itself or what have you. Now, as swaps go, putting a TT in a NA car is fairly straight forward and simple. The car was designed for the engine, there is plenty of parts around that can be picked up cheap and most importantly, there is a factory book pertaining to a TT motor in a Z32 and there is plenty of people who have done this one. Thus even someone with only limited wrenching skills and tools could probably stick a TT motor in their NA themselves given that they aren't dumbasses about it.

Then the option: The VH swap. To clear the air: I think the VH and VK are both great motors. However, going this route requires either plenty of in the way of labor fees due to the custom nature of this swap or a good deal of knowledge and experience with both the Z32 and VH and quite a bit of access to tools and machines for custom making pieces as needed. Anyway you cut it, the VH swap is going to be more difficult then a TT swap and almost certainly out of the range of anyone looking for the cheap easy way to get a more powerful motor into their NA Z32. That was the whole point from the get go. And the second point drawn from that was that if you are to the point where you can pull the VG and upgrade X and Y or you can fab enough stuff to splice a VH into a Z32, then you can pretty much do whatever you want and thus comes down to preference. Same with getting to lowering compression, rebuilding engines and everything else, you've already past any semblance of a tuned street motor and once you get past that its all preference. Someone wants to swap in X motor with Z, Y and R mods, thats fine, grab a chest of gold and go at it. Once you go there, practicality has lost meaning and so is kind of lost on the people looking for a cheap, easy way to get a badderass Z32.

And in the end I come back to my original point: Just a buy a damn TT, they make them so you don't have to.

And don't ever implicate me in politics again or else I"ll burn your barn down and pawn your ederly.
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Old 09-20-2004, 08:34 AM   #29
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Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broke_as_****
And in the end I come back to my original point: Just a buy a damn TT, they make them so you don't have to.
Yeah, I'll drink to that.

Quote:
And don't ever implicate me in politics again or else I"ll burn your barn down and pawn your ederly.
DON'T YOU TOUCH THAT GODDAMNED BARN! I mean, erm, I don't have one...

Seriously though, I think we were all kinda making the same points here. Financially, swapping a NA car with a TT car is the best option.
Creatively, swapping in an exotic engine in a car that it was never designed for is the best.
Doing a NA/TT engine swap I guess lies somewhere inbetween, without the benefits of either.

If you want to do an engine swap...
Zgringo: '... swap in the best, most advanced engine that your budget allows'
MikeMan: '... swap in something that hasn't been done before, just to confuse people who look under the hood'
Broke: '... go count your pennies, because its not going to be the cheapest or easiest option.'
Samhain: '... give me a call. I can get you a TT front clip for $2000!'

:P

-Mike
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Old 09-21-2004, 02:43 AM   #30
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Re: Re: Twin Turbo Swap... READ

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMan

If you want to do an engine swap...
Zgringo: '... swap in the best, most advanced engine that your budget allows'
MikeMan: '... swap in something that hasn't been done before, just to confuse people who look under the hood'
Broke: '... go count your pennies, because its not going to be the cheapest or easiest option.'
Samhain: '... give me a call. I can get you a TT front clip for $2000!'
haha! that was great
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