Told you's so!!

[RidingOnRailz]

Back when I had a 2005 Chevrolet V6 Malibu with electric variable-
assist steering.

AP Writeup 2/17/2010:

" . . . But the decision to investigate the Corolla offered further
evidence that the automaker is exposed to heightened scrutiny of its
cars and trucks.


Some Corolla drivers said they had difficulty keeping the vehicle
straight, especially at higher speeds. They reported having to fight
the wheel to keep the car from wandering between lanes.

Jerry Josefy, a 71-year-old retired farmer and mechanic from
Grandfield, Okla., said he noticed problems with the steering on his
2009 Corolla when he drove it home after buying it last year.

He took it back to the dealer for repairs, but the steering trouble
persisted. Josefy still drives the car, but said it requires constant
attention to make sure it stays straight.

"It wants to wander all the time," he said. "You could have a wreck
with it if you don't keep your eyes on the road."

Smaller, less-expensive vehicles such as the 2009 and 2010 Corolla use
electric-assist power steering. They are usually equipped with power
steering systems that are aided by a small electric motor, a system
known as electric-assist steering.

The motor essentially helps align the steering wheel with the movement
of the tires. The system is cheaper to install than steering systems
that rely on hydraulics.

Problems can arise if the motor is out of sync with the steering
wheel, which could potentially cause the vehicle to wander without any
turning of the wheel, he said.

"Car companies work on it a lot," said Jim De Clerck, a professor in
the Michigan Technological University's mechanical engineering
department and a former General Motors engineer. "It is a pretty well-
known customer-satisfaction issue."


Toyota said the steering problem could be related to the braking
system or tires. Improperly aligned tires, for example, can be a
source of steering complications, De Clerck said. . . ."


Cheaper than conventional hydraulic PS? It's ALWAYS ABOUT the MOW-
NAY!! >



BAN



ELECTRIC POWER STEERING



NOW!!

(except on Golf Carts...)

[consultIII]

Its also fuel economy. Less load on engine as not running a power steering pump constantly. Haven't driven the toyota system but have driven all the chevy and nissan systems. Have a great road feel compared to hydraulic systems in my opinion. Quieter and no leaks.

[RahX]

And having changed a rack and pinion on a Sentra, MUCH easier to do . A lot lighter also. I imagine a lot of the problem is when something gets moved and the assist computer's placement of wheel center is not where wheel center is and it tries to correct it. Working on KIA, a couple customers have had their vehicles aligned and had similar problems. KIA uses a light to alert the driver, and it is a simple matter of resetting the center to center in the computer.

[shorod]

The original post reminds me of the debate in the early days of commercial electricity. Many wanted to use Direct Current (DC) and ban the use of Alternating Current (AC). DC was advertised as being safer, public displays of electrocutions of elephants were even performed to get their point across. What's in the houses today? Alternating current. Why? Primarily because it's cheaper to distribute since it's easier to step up and step down with lower loss and less expense. What's safer to the consumer? Sure, DC is safer, but how many people do you hear complain about power in their houses compared with complaints about the cost of the power in their houses? Just think what it would be like if the cost was magnitudes higher due to safer DC.

Another modern version of this controversy is the research in to hydrogen fuel cells. Opponents think Hindenburg and consider the hydrogen tanks an explosion risk. Don't these people also realize that a punctured gas tank is also an explosion hazard!?!

As mentioned above, there are several benefits to electric assist power steering and the transition to electric assist is being driven in large part by the EPA, not directly the auto manufacturers. The engineers work hard to come up with creative ways to meet the strict EPA restrictions AND safety requirements (added weight from ABS, stability control, airbags, impact safety, etc.). It's difficult to add weight and improve fuel economy. In these cases the engineers are doing a pretty good job of giving us our cake and letting us eat it too. But as with everything, there is a learning curve. It's a good thing we didn't all stop trying to walk after the first time we fell down.

-Rod

[RidingOnRailz]

There simply is no way to convince me that EPS is a good idea. There are other ways to green a car, and most of them have been done - electronic fuel management, three decades of aerodynamic refinement(Europe was using organic form headlights a decade before they were legal here!), weight-saving unibody construction, constant improvements in radial tire rolling resistence, etc.

Steering is something I don't want touched. If EPS was properly tested and issues of road feel were addressed long before implementing in cars, then I might be convinced. It's time to go back to the drawing board with electric power steering.

Sad...I thought I'd find some sympathy here on AF . com, but it's not the bare-elbowed greasy finger-nailed classic rock blaring automotive discussion group I was expecting.

[RahX]

Or maybe we are more accepting of 'new fangled technology'. Most of the vehicles I've driven with true electric power steering were no different in feel than those that use hydraulic. It sucks that your 2005 Malibu didn't have quite the feel that you wanted, but it has been 6 years. It won't be too much longer before we have electric calipers and solenoids instead of camshafts.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by RahX

Or maybe we are more accepting of 'new fangled technology'. Most of the vehicles I've driven with true electric power steering were no different in feel than those that use hydraulic. It sucks that your 2005 Malibu didn't have quite the feel that you wanted, but it has been 6 years. It won't be too much longer before we have electric calipers and solenoids instead of camshafts.

There are a lot of reviews out there noting the "numbness" of the 2004 - 2007 generation Malibu's steering. It was just not a good execution.

And BTW, what would you describe as "good steering feel"? "The feel that I wanted"?? No offense intended Rah but am I the only person who drives a car three planets out from the Sun? Many affecionados of "driving for the sake of driving" know exactly what I'm talking about. And quite honestly I'd pick my 2008 Kia Optima at 70mph over the '05 Malibu at 50 any day.

[shorod]

It sounds like you're basing all your issues with EPS on that one vehicle, the Malibu. Have you confirmed that your 2008 Kia does not have EPS? I suspect it does, at least electric variable assist. It is irrational to make such a broad statement as to ban all EPS based on one less than desirable experience with a GM product.

I remember when Dad was concerned that the industry was transitioning away from carburetors in favor of fuel injection. I can't imagine anyone today thinking that the industry would be better off if fuel injection had not become mainstream from a driveability, reliability, and economy standpoint....

-Rod

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by shorod

It sounds like you're basing all your issues with EPS on that one vehicle, the Malibu. Have you confirmed that your 2008 Kia does not have EPS? I suspect it does, at least electric variable assist. It is irrational to make such a broad statement as to ban all EPS based on one less than desirable experience with a GM product.

I remember when Dad was concerned that the industry was transitioning away from carburetors in favor of fuel injection. I can't imagine anyone today thinking that the industry would be better off if fuel injection had not become mainstream from a driveability, reliability, and economy standpoint....

-Rod

Do I look like someone who works in DC? I've actually been under a hood you know. The current generation Optima(2006.5 to present) has a good ole fashioned PS reservoir and plumbing reaching into the nether reaches of that engine bay.

I know VW's electric PS has been so far transparent(indistinguishable from its hydraulic predecessors) according to the serious magazines, but that is the exception - not the rule.

So you "suspected" my car has EPS? You must not be one of AF's "scratched knuckles" or "greasy elbow"s. I know they're on here somewhere!

[consultIII]

Originally Posted by SmoothHandler

Do I look like someone who works in DC? I've actually been under a hood you know. The current generation Optima(2006.5 to present) has a good ole fashioned PS reservoir and plumbing reaching into the nether reaches of that engine bay.

I know VW's electric PS has been so far transparent(indistinguishable from its hydraulic predecessors) according to the serious magazines, but that is the exception - not the rule.

So you "suspected" my car has EPS? You must not be one of AF's "scratched knuckles" or "greasy elbow"s. I know they're on here somewhere!

pretty sure all the replies for this post are from lisenced techs.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by consultIII

pretty sure all the replies for this post are from lisenced techs.

I'll take a mechanic with some actual under the hood time over a "licensed tech" any day!

[consultIII]

Originally Posted by SmoothHandler

I'll take a mechanic with some actual under the hood time over a "licensed tech" any day!

someone must do your car repair as its obvious you don't know enought about it. can I delete this guy so I don't have to read anymore of his posts

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by consultIII

someone must do your car repair's as its obvious you don't know enought about it. can I delete this guy so I don't have to read anymore of his posts

You just can't stand the fact that there's a regular guy on here who has experience with driving cars with conventional and electrical power steering and happens to be sensitive enough to feel the differences between each.

And what exactly don't I know - can you enlighten me? All I was trying to do with this thread was to show how my skepticism of electrical power steering since five years go has been underscored by potential problems with it on a currently produced car.

[consultIII]

Originally Posted by SmoothHandler

You just can't stand the fact that there's a regular guy on here who has experience with driving cars with conventional and electrical power steering and happens to be sensitive enough to feel the differences between each.

And what exactly don't I know - can you enlighten me? All I was trying to do with this thread was to show how my skepticism of electrical power steering since five years go has been underscored by potential problems with it on a currently produced car.

if you like hydraulic systems great. everyone has their preferences and I'll bet in the future there will always be models out there for you to buy that keep that old technology. Nothing wrong with that. Your the consumer buy; what you want and prefer.

Don't insult the licensed techs on this site that are more often than not saving you money; giving away advice.

[RidingOnRailz]

Originally Posted by consultIII

if you like hydraulic systems great. everyone has their preferences and I'll bet in the future there will always be models out there for you to buy that keep that old technology. Nothing wrong with that. Your the consumer buy; what you want and prefer.

Don't insult the licensed techs on this site that are more often than not saving you money; giving away advice.

I'm not trying to insult anyone. I was just expecting to find folks on here who are as "conservative" as I am when it comes to tried and true automotive technologies, who might agree that this electric steering thing might need a little more refinement before rushing it to market. Heck, I don't even like power door-locks. You can't program them on my Optima, and their default is to lock 5 seconds after all doors are closed. I can lock my own doors thank you very much.

Guess my next car will have to be a 64 or later Corvair. Thanks to uncle Ralph they're a relative steal compared to Vettes, Camaros & Mustangs of that era - and just as safe.