buick v6 swap

[petro57]

Looking for someone who can give me some info on putting a 1983 buick v6 3.8 in my standard shift fiero. Where can I get adapter plate, flywheel, motor mounts, ect..? I have one I would love to install. Any help appreciated.

[MrPbody]

Petro,

The earlier 231s aren't a real good idea in the P-body. You could look at a company called "TransDapt". They offer adapters for many swaps. I can't say if this is one of them.

It is quite popular to install the 2nd or 3rd gen (3800-II and -III). The bellhousing pattern is the same as the 60 degree V6s. There are a couple of them around Richmond with 5-speeds from Baretta and the supercharged 3800 from a late '90s GP. ANIMALS!

FWIW

Jim

[Old Lar]

3800 SC engines from Buick and Pontiac are nice swaps with the big hassel of getting a good wiring harness. Since all the 3800 SC came through with automatics, you'd need a computer chip burned for a manual. To have it done by an experienced mechanic can run to several grand, but then it would be done right.

[Ragtop_Renegade]

Is this a carburated 3.8? If the no-computer approach is what you are intending here, there is an alternative to getting a custom BOP to metric bellhousing adapter. I'll wait for you to answer before I get into an involved description.

BTW, you better be SURE this is what you want. There's a lot of work involved in going with a bigger, more powerful motor. More horsepower means more speed. You must be told, if you haven't considered this already, the faster it gets the more inadequate the stock brakes and suspension become. If you have a 4 cylinder Fiero, more work, more parts and, of course, more money are needed.
If you have an 84 Fiero, as word of advise, if you aren't doing this for bragging rights, quit now. I mean it. The 84 wasn't prepped for a V6 at all, and the only justification for swapping one in is the right to say you pulled it off. You can buy a good factory V-6 car to do a 3.8 swap for less then the money you'll invest in retrofitting an 84.

There are a couple of them around Richmond with 5-speeds from Baretta and the supercharged 3800 from a late '90s GP. ANIMALS!

The Beretta used the same Muncie-Getrag 282 5-speed found in the 86-88 Fiero GT. There is no reason to pursue one from a Beretta. In fact, it requires shift linkage modification to swap in. This transaxle was also found in many other GM front-drive cars, mostly exclusive to v6 models.

The only drop-in upgrade available is the 284, found only in The Grand Prix and Lumina and only behind the unusual, but powerful, 4 cam 3.4L. The 3.4 was an uncommon option, and the 5 speed was a true rarity. They are not only REALLY expensive, both used and rebuilt, but very hard to find. The average front-drive or Fiero hot-rodder would rather shoot themselves in the foot rather then part with a getrag 284.

[petro57]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Petro,

The earlier 231s aren't a real good idea in the P-body. You could look at a company called "TransDapt". They offer adapters for many swaps. I can't say if this is one of them.

It is quite popular to install the 2nd or 3rd gen (3800-II and -III). The bellhousing pattern is the same as the 60 degree V6s. There are a couple of them around Richmond with 5-speeds from Baretta and the supercharged 3800 from a late '90s GP. ANIMALS!

FWIW

Jim

Thanks for the info

[petro57]

Originally Posted by Ragtop_Renegade

Is this a carburated 3.8? If the no-computer approach is what you are intending here, there is an alternative to getting a custom BOP to metric bellhousing adapter. I'll wait for you to answer before I get into an involved description.

BTW, you better be SURE this is what you want. There's a lot of work involved in going with a bigger, more powerful motor. More horsepower means more speed. You must be told, if you haven't considered this already, the faster it gets the more inadequate the stock brakes and suspension become. If you have a 4 cylinder Fiero, more work, more parts and, of course, more money are needed.
If you have an 84 Fiero, as word of advise, if you aren't doing this for bragging rights, quit now. I mean it. The 84 wasn't prepped for a V6 at all, and the only justification for swapping one in is the right to say you pulled it off. You can buy a good factory V-6 car to do a 3.8 swap for less then the money you'll invest in retrofitting an 84.






The Beretta used the same Muncie-Getrag 282 5-speed found in the 86-88 Fiero GT. There is no reason to pursue one from a Beretta. In fact, it requires shift linkage modification to swap in. This transaxle was also found in many other GM front-drive cars, mostly exclusive to v6 models.

The only drop-in upgrade available is the 284, found only in The Grand Prix and Lumina and only behind the unusual, but powerful, 4 cam 3.4L. The 3.4 was an uncommon option, and the 5 speed was a true rarity. They are not only REALLY expensive, both used and rebuilt, but very hard to find. The average front-drive or Fiero hot-rodder would rather shoot themselves in the foot rather then part with a getrag 284.

Yes its carbureted. I hate computerized engines. I want more power and simplicity. I figure since I already have this engine why not use it. So what's the alternative?

[petro57]

Originally Posted by Old Lar

3800 SC engines from Buick and Pontiac are nice swaps with the big hassel of getting a good wiring harness. Since all the 3800 SC came through with automatics, you'd need a computer chip burned for a manual. To have it done by an experienced mechanic can run to several grand, but then it would be done right.

I'm trying to get away from computer. I want simple raw power. Thanks for the input.

[Ragtop_Renegade]

As you've already figured out, A BOP (Buick Olds Pontiac, also seen on Cadillac but not reliably, as they insist on always doing something exclusive citing "because we're Cadillac" for a reason) pattern as used on 1st gen even-fire buick sixes differs from the GM "corporate" (aka metric) bellhousing used on the chevy 60-degree v6 and Pontiac all-iron fours. There are no "mainstream" adapters out there, meaning big bucks for niche market or custom-made, and in addition to that headache - and I can't promise this for sure since my memory is a bit fuzzy and I don't have a 3.8 on hand for reference, but I'm fairly certain - the starter is on the wrong side of the block. If I'm remembering right, that would explain the lack of demand for an adapter.

Ah, but I teased you with the hope there was a different way - and there is.
Forgive me for boring you with a little history, but it's important to know how and why things happened the way they did. The BOP pattern was retired in 1987. Rear drive suffered a heavy blow that year, with Regal, Grand National, GNX, Cutlass and Grand Prix all going to Fischer Body heaven. Only the Caprice, F-Bodies and Corvette would live on. The Olds 307 also retired, along with the (good riddance) 200-R4 automatic trans. GM saw no reason to support the BOP pattern for only the 3.8, so the block was redesigned to fit the metric bellhousing. The 3.8's signature FWD transaxle, the 440-T4, got the same treatment, eventually laying the groundwork that brought us overdrive and much-needed MPG to the 2.8L (and later 3.1L) cars. The 3.8 became the "3800", but despite having it's rear end worked over(nip tuck come to mind, anyone?), much stayed the same.

Yes, finally - here's how it all comes together:

By obtaining a clean short block from a "3800" car, you can bolt your existing '83 iron lungs(that is to say, heads) and carb intake on. The 3800 used a coil-pack ignition system, but the distributor provision is still there - a dummy plug built with the bottom end of a distributor still serves as the oil pump drive. Pull this and pop your HEI distributor in place.

A few notes:

Series I 3800s blocks are the best bet here. The series II becomes more distant from it's earlier cousins, and compatibility issues can pop up.

Some GM engines retain a timing pointer even though they were distributorless. If you aren't this lucky, use the pointer from the 3.8. If needed, stamp a mark for top dead center.

When harmonic dampers come into play (I doubt this concerns 3.8L Buicks, but My 3800 shop manual is lent out, so rather then depend on memory, here goes - this is a good general practice anyway) - and this varies by engine and year - don't swap dampers between rotating assemblies. If the donor block did not use a damper, it doesn't need one.

There are a billion accessory drive alternatives, so pick your pleasure.using the modern front cover and gaining the advantage of serpentine drive as well as a modern water pump is worthwhile, but sacrifices engine compartment space. Using the old style water pump and stamped steel timing cover gives you more working room, but leaves you with antique, squeaky v-belts. One upside is there is no power steering pump to bother with. (perhaps the original source for the curse of the squealing v-belt). Tinkering may be required to get a good belt run, but with a collection of brackets (new holes drilled as needed) there is always a way.

At some point the 3800 grew a roller cam, not sure on the year. (I have to stop lending books out!) This is a keeper if the brackets that keep the lifters from spinning don't interfere with the older heads or valvetrain. Though not expected, if the roller setup evades you the old 3.8 cam and lifters are a drop-in affair. If you're stuck without the roller, Edelbrock has a high performance flat-tappet cam, and I'm sure they aren't the only ones.
Have yet to see a roller cam in the high-perf aftermarket, but if you dare to dream, look up Isky cams. Famous the world over, Isky can do some pretty fancy regrinds on stock sticks, and while they'll probably empty your wallet, they'll blow your mind with the results. Well worth the money if you have it. Protect your investment by having the cam nitrided (tempered) after it's ground.

The newer block will have provisions for stuff you don't need: cam, crank, and knock sensors all being common. Fill any empty holes with a stubby socket head cap screw or hex bolt. Coat the threads with locktite, there are several varieties, the blue stuff works, but I recommend one of the permanent versions, designed to keep stuff that's never coming out again
from EVER coming out. Obviously, this stuff doesn't allow you a second chance so treat it like it was a live grenade. Back up the head with a soft rubber washer sized accordingly, and coat the side that faces the block with some gasket sealer. Use gasgainch or some REAL sealer, not blue silicon. Measure your hole depth and know what's behind it, so you don't run too long of bolt and end up smacking something. To figure out what to use to fill a hole, here's a tip: Get some modeling clay (yes, playdoh works!) and roll a small ball between your fingers. Insert it in the hole and squash it against the threads on any given side, then peel it off. Take your "mold" to the hardware store and you'll be able to see what thread size and pitch you need. I suggest you find a local Fastenal Store, as they know what they are doing in terms of hardware, and they have the sealers you need too.

There's more to consider if you want it. Naturally, this is a pretty variable solution. If you have a real nice low-miles 3.8, for example, you could swap all the internals into a 3800 bare block. My first suggestion is a complete rebuilt short block, as they are rather cheap and give you the peace of mind your bottom end has a hundred thousand or more to live. You save bucks by using the older heads.

Do I know this works? Yup. Buddy of mine has an '82 Century coupe with a motor out of a 88 wagon. It's a complete reverse-retrofit with a Buick V6 four-barrel intake and a quadrajet. It embarrasses sport-compact and small block v8 guys alike every time it leaves the garage. It's 100% GM original, and not even bored-over. The only new items are rings, gaskets/seals, and bearings. The crank journals have been ground as the wagon ate a bearing and thrashed the surface a bit on a journal.
So yea, this works.

Got more to add, but.... gotta run, will post later.

[petro57]

Originally Posted by Ragtop_Renegade

As you've already figured out, A BOP (Buick Olds Pontiac, also seen on Cadillac but not reliably, as they insist on always doing something exclusive citing "because we're Cadillac" for a reason) pattern as used on 1st gen even-fire buick sixes differs from the GM "corporate" (aka metric) bellhousing used on the chevy 60-degree v6 and Pontiac all-iron fours. There are no "mainstream" adapters out there, meaning big bucks for niche market or custom-made, and in addition to that headache - and I can't promise this for sure since my memory is a bit fuzzy and I don't have a 3.8 on hand for reference, but I'm fairly certain - the starter is on the wrong side of the block. If I'm remembering right, that would explain the lack of demand for an adapter.

Ah, but I teased you with the hope there was a different way - and there is.
Forgive me for boring you with a little history, but it's important to know how and why things happened the way they did. The BOP pattern was retired in 1987. Rear drive suffered a heavy blow that year, with Regal, Grand National, GNX, Cutlass and Grand Prix all going to Fischer Body heaven. Only the Caprice, F-Bodies and Corvette would live on. The Olds 307 also retired, along with the (good riddance) 200-R4 automatic trans. GM saw no reason to support the BOP pattern for only the 3.8, so the block was redesigned to fit the metric bellhousing. The 3.8's signature FWD transaxle, the 440-T4, got the same treatment, eventually laying the groundwork that brought us overdrive and much-needed MPG to the 2.8L (and later 3.1L) cars. The 3.8 became the "3800", but despite having it's rear end worked over(nip tuck come to mind, anyone?), much stayed the same.

Yes, finally - here's how it all comes together:

By obtaining a clean short block from a "3800" car, you can bolt your existing '83 iron lungs(that is to say, heads) and carb intake on. The 3800 used a coil-pack ignition system, but the distributor provision is still there - a dummy plug built with the bottom end of a distributor still serves as the oil pump drive. Pull this and pop your HEI distributor in place.

A few notes:

Series I 3800s blocks are the best bet here. The series II becomes more distant from it's earlier cousins, and compatibility issues can pop up.

Some GM engines retain a timing pointer even though they were distributorless. If you aren't this lucky, use the pointer from the 3.8. If needed, stamp a mark for top dead center.

When harmonic dampers come into play (I doubt this concerns 3.8L Buicks, but My 3800 shop manual is lent out, so rather then depend on memory, here goes - this is a good general practice anyway) - and this varies by engine and year - don't swap dampers between rotating assemblies. If the donor block did not use a damper, it doesn't need one.

There are a billion accessory drive alternatives, so pick your pleasure.using the modern front cover and gaining the advantage of serpentine drive as well as a modern water pump is worthwhile, but sacrifices engine compartment space. Using the old style water pump and stamped steel timing cover gives you more working room, but leaves you with antique, squeaky v-belts. One upside is there is no power steering pump to bother with. (perhaps the original source for the curse of the squealing v-belt). Tinkering may be required to get a good belt run, but with a collection of brackets (new holes drilled as needed) there is always a way.

At some point the 3800 grew a roller cam, not sure on the year. (I have to stop lending books out!) This is a keeper if the brackets that keep the lifters from spinning don't interfere with the older heads or valvetrain. Though not expected, if the roller setup evades you the old 3.8 cam and lifters are a drop-in affair. If you're stuck without the roller, Edelbrock has a high performance flat-tappet cam, and I'm sure they aren't the only ones.
Have yet to see a roller cam in the high-perf aftermarket, but if you dare to dream, look up Isky cams. Famous the world over, Isky can do some pretty fancy regrinds on stock sticks, and while they'll probably empty your wallet, they'll blow your mind with the results. Well worth the money if you have it. Protect your investment by having the cam nitrided (tempered) after it's ground.

The newer block will have provisions for stuff you don't need: cam, crank, and knock sensors all being common. Fill any empty holes with a stubby socket head cap screw or hex bolt. Coat the threads with locktite, there are several varieties, the blue stuff works, but I recommend one of the permanent versions, designed to keep stuff that's never coming out again
from EVER coming out. Obviously, this stuff doesn't allow you a second chance so treat it like it was a live grenade. Back up the head with a soft rubber washer sized accordingly, and coat the side that faces the block with some gasket sealer. Use gasgainch or some REAL sealer, not blue silicon. Measure your hole depth and know what's behind it, so you don't run too long of bolt and end up smacking something. To figure out what to use to fill a hole, here's a tip: Get some modeling clay (yes, playdoh works!) and roll a small ball between your fingers. Insert it in the hole and squash it against the threads on any given side, then peel it off. Take your "mold" to the hardware store and you'll be able to see what thread size and pitch you need. I suggest you find a local Fastenal Store, as they know what they are doing in terms of hardware, and they have the sealers you need too.

There's more to consider if you want it. Naturally, this is a pretty variable solution. If you have a real nice low-miles 3.8, for example, you could swap all the internals into a 3800 bare block. My first suggestion is a complete rebuilt short block, as they are rather cheap and give you the peace of mind your bottom end has a hundred thousand or more to live. You save bucks by using the older heads.

Do I know this works? Yup. Buddy of mine has an '82 Century coupe with a motor out of a 88 wagon. It's a complete reverse-retrofit with a Buick V6 four-barrel intake and a quadrajet. It embarrasses sport-compact and small block v8 guys alike every time it leaves the garage. It's 100% GM original, and not even bored-over. The only new items are rings, gaskets/seals, and bearings. The crank journals have been ground as the wagon ate a bearing and thrashed the surface a bit on a journal.
So yea, this works.

Got more to add, but.... gotta run, will post later.

Hey that's what I'm talking about!!! You know some stuff don't you!
You're right the starter is on the wrong side. I would have never dreamed that the later model 3800's could be fitted with a distributor and carbureter. This opens up new possibilities. I'm going to print your response right now and start looking for one of these engines.
I guess I'm just too old school but I can't help it. I just love the old engines that were carbed and independent from computers. When I was a teenager we could pull the motor from 1975 chevy stationwagon and drop it into our 1969 camaro and not have to worry about swapping out the wiring and computer so the motor would run.
I have two 84 fieros. I just came in from my shop working on changing one of them to a carb and vacuum advance distributor. I learned that a distributor from a 1980 pontiac phoenix would work so I bought a new one. I had one of those old 2gc rochester 2bbl carbs laying around in my shop forever, so I put a kit in it and made an adapter plate. I installed all of that and fired it off this afternoon. and it runs great! I can't drive it yet because I have to make up a different bracket for the throttle cable but that's no problem. It seems to have more pep. Who knows I might decide to get a manifold and go with 4 bbl and put in a larger cam. See, the fact that the computer is disabled with the older style distributor opens up more possibilities for this engine. To me that's true, nostalgic, fun, hotrodding.
I really appreciate you taking time to share this info with me. If there's anything else along these lines that could help me, please let me know.
It's this stuff that makes these forums so valuable.
Thanks alot.
Petro 57

[Ragtop_Renegade]

Don't worry, there is more...

Ignition: as long as you are using a GM system, use GM parts. GM HEI (as well as DIS) HATE aftermarket plugs and wires. Use AC/Delco wires and plugs. Delco Rapidfire plugs cost a few dollars more but give you an extra kick.

I've yet to figure out why this is, but nothing else works as well with a stock setup. I can even prove it. In my garage right now sits a '87 Camaro Sport with a stock 305 4bbl.(yes, it's a real-deal computerized franken-quad!) The last guy to lay hands on the car gave it a "tune up" just before I got it and used Taylor 409 Pro Wires (Over $100 a set) and Bosch Platinum plugs. With less then 200mi on the car since , the thing misfires like crazy, sucks gas like a siphon hose and has the throttle response of a riding lawnmower. GM ignitions hate everything non- AC/Delco - never forget that!

If you want hotter spark, go all aftermarket. Mallory Ignition makes
Several Distributors for the 231, in dual-point, magnetic and Unilite (optical) styles. Backed up with a promaster coil and a hyfire ignition box, these bad boys cook as much fuel as you can dish out.
Accel Ignition has coil-in-cap HEI performance street distributors, yet to see Mallory with that.

For more reverse-retrofit fun, Mallory's got plenty of distributors for the whole GM clan, including the 2.8 and 3.1, as well as the Iron duke 4. I can cite factually that as new as a '95 3100 block can be converted to a distributor and carb! In this case, iron heads from a 2.8 are needed - but it's still do-able!

Fuel-wise: many GM engines went from mechanical fuel pumps to electric over the years, and rather than change the block and remove the drive gear (meaning a re-engineered rotating assembly) you'll find a number of engines just have a block-off plate, meaning quick conversion to a mechanical pump. However, mechanical pumps are one headache we can live without. Nobody misses priming dry carbs to get the motor spinning fast enough to suck something out of the tank. A Fiero's electric in-tank fuel pump can supply plenty of fuel, thanks to it's high pressure design. Because we don't need all that pressure, we can regulate it and still get fast delivery. That's an important step - you need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator that can cut the EFI-level pressures down to just a few PSI. Try edelbrock, holley, mallory, areomotive, or magnafuel on this one.
Failure to regulate fuel pressure will eventually fail the float valve, not just an issue with engine performance but also an obvious fire hazard. Since every fiero has a fuel return line, installing a by-pass regulator is easier then falling off a log.

Carb-wise, the rochester 2v is fine, you can also use quadrajet by bolting on a 252's four-barrel intake. The 3.8 did have a four-barrel, but only on turbo models prior to the EFI version seen on the grand national and Regal/Riviera t-types. This is horse of a different color, being a turbo setup, and not something to look for unless you actually have a complete 231 turbo,carb,intake,and plumbing and rebuild a 3800 block with low compression pistons and forged internals. To get one, you practically have to pry it out of the previous owners cold,dead hands.

more later...

[petro57]

Originally Posted by Ragtop_Renegade

Don't worry, there is more...

Ignition: as long as you are using a GM system, use GM parts. GM HEI (as well as DIS) HATE aftermarket plugs and wires. Use AC/Delco wires and plugs. Delco Rapidfire plugs cost a few dollars more but give you an extra kick.

I've yet to figure out why this is, but nothing else works as well with a stock setup. I can even prove it. In my garage right now sits a '87 Camaro Sport with a stock 305 4bbl.(yes, it's a real-deal computerized franken-quad!) The last guy to lay hands on the car gave it a "tune up" just before I got it and used Taylor 409 Pro Wires (Over $100 a set) and Bosch Platinum plugs. With less then 200mi on the car since , the thing misfires like crazy, sucks gas like a siphon hose and has the throttle response of a riding lawnmower. GM ignitions hate everything non- AC/Delco - never forget that!

If you want hotter spark, go all aftermarket. Mallory Ignition makes
Several Distributors for the 231, in dual-point, magnetic and Unilite (optical) styles. Backed up with a promaster coil and a hyfire ignition box, these bad boys cook as much fuel as you can dish out.
Accel Ignition has coil-in-cap HEI performance street distributors, yet to see Mallory with that.

For more reverse-retrofit fun, Mallory's got plenty of distributors for the whole GM clan, including the 2.8 and 3.1, as well as the Iron duke 4. I can cite factually that as new as a '95 3100 block can be converted to a distributor and carb! In this case, iron heads from a 2.8 are needed - but it's still do-able!

Fuel-wise: many GM engines went from mechanical fuel pumps to electric over the years, and rather than change the block and remove the drive gear (meaning a re-engineered rotating assembly) you'll find a number of engines just have a block-off plate, meaning quick conversion to a mechanical pump. However, mechanical pumps are one headache we can live without. Nobody misses priming dry carbs to get the motor spinning fast enough to suck something out of the tank. A Fiero's electric in-tank fuel pump can supply plenty of fuel, thanks to it's high pressure design. Because we don't need all that pressure, we can regulate it and still get fast delivery. That's an important step - you need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator that can cut the EFI-level pressures down to just a few PSI. Try edelbrock, holley, mallory, areomotive, or magnafuel on this one.
Failure to regulate fuel pressure will eventually fail the float valve, not just an issue with engine performance but also an obvious fire hazard. Since every fiero has a fuel return line, installing a by-pass regulator is easier then falling off a log.

Carb-wise, the rochester 2v is fine, you can also use quadrajet by bolting on a 252's four-barrel intake. The 3.8 did have a four-barrel, but only on turbo models prior to the EFI version seen on the grand national and Regal/Riviera t-types. This is horse of a different color, being a turbo setup, and not something to look for unless you actually have a complete 231 turbo,carb,intake,and plumbing and rebuild a 3800 block with low compression pistons and forged internals. To get one, you practically have to pry it out of the previous owners cold,dead hands.

more later...

Dear Renegade,
Keep it coming I'm soaking it all up! Yes, I installed a Mr. Gasket regulator on my fiero to adapt the carb. I have it set on 3 lbs and it seems to be ok. Only thing, I wasn't sure what to do with the return line. I left it disconnected and it seemed to be ok but i'm wandering if I should tee it off the main line upstream from the regulator (maybe with a smaller hose, the regulator only has an inlet and an outlet) just to keep things flowing close to stock as possible. What do you think?
Let me ask a few more questions about identifying exactly the year model engines I'm looking for..... On my way home from work today I bought a Haynes manual covering BOP's fron 1985 to 2005- front wheel drives. There are 5 different V6's listed:
1985 3.8L
1986 to 1988 3.8L Type I
1986 to 1988 3.8L Type II
1989 to 1991 3800
1992 and later 3800

If I understand you right, it's the "1986 to 1988 3.8L Type I" that I'm looking for. Is that right? Or are some of the later models candidates? You said some of the 3800's could be retrofited. Which ones?
What I would really like to do is find a complete vehicle at a reasonable price for a donor.
Yes I searched and found a Mallory distributor for my fiero but it was $400.00+ so I bought the new stock distributor for the Pontiac Phoenix for $117.00. It works great. The engine starts before what seems like 1 revolution ,whereas before, no matter what I did it took 5 or 6 with the wimpy stock fiero distributor.
Like I said I have 2 of these cars and they're just toys so I'm open to trying some different things and one of them is definitely the 3.8 thing. I know where I can get a 2.8 fiero V6 but there's not that much difference in the horse power to justify the swap. Besides, I owned a GMC S15 truck with the 2.8 in it and I was not impressed with it. It had very little power and it leaked oil like a seive. If I can't go with at least a 3.8 I'll make the best of the iron duke.
Again, thanks for your time and info.
By the way, whats that you've got there? a '69 firebird? Looks nice!
The rest of my collection includes:
'68 camaro
'84 monte carlo SS
'41 ford coupe (just a body right now)
'41 chevy coupe (" " " " )
'66 Triumph 500 (changed to a hardtail)
I'll check back later
Petro57

[Ragtop_Renegade]

Well, yesterday I finally got motivated to hunt down my "w" body shop manual I reference for anything 88-up 3800. Now that I have it back, I was checking out the engine disassembly pics and got a nasty surprise - I couldn't see a distributor hole! So I traced my steps, made some phone calls and figured out where my memory got side-tracked.

The 3800 used a coil-pack ignition system, but the distributor provision is still there - a dummy plug built with the bottom end of a distributor still serves as the oil pump drive.

I was thinking the 3800 series II lost it's distributor drive (thanks to a front mount oil pump) but it was, in fact, the 1988 series I. To swap in a distributor, you must find a pre-88 block. Identify the correct block by checking for the aluminum dummy plug in the rear. If the engine is still together, the intake plenum will read "3.8L" If it says "3800" it's a no-go. It must be a FWD block, and that's error #2:

GM saw no reason to support the BOP pattern for only the 3.8, so the block was redesigned to fit the metric bellhousing. The 3.8's signature FWD transaxle, the 440-T4, got the same treatment

I screwed this up a bit. The first part is correct, the BOP pattern disappeared after '87. The next time a 3.8 showed up in a rear drive car, (1989 20th anniversary Turbo Trans-AM) it was wearing the Gm metric bolt pattern. This would continue on, as all 4th gen 3.8L f-bodies use this pattern also.
The second is not. This is what required making phone calls. After much deliberation I have come to the conclusion that ALL FRONT DRIVE 3.8L ENGINES HAVE A METRIC BOLT PATTERN. I wanted to be extra,extra sure of this, so I called up local tranny guru Rick Nylund of Nylund Transmission who said, that while it's been a few years since he's done a th-440 that was pulled from the car in-house, he does not remember ever seeing more then one type of bellhousing. I know, I know, you're wondering why I'm talking about automatics when you have a 4 speed. Well, here's why: The TH-440 was used behind both the 3.8 and as an optional upgrade to 2.8L cars. If the 3.8 had a different bellhousing, Rick would have known the difference. He has 2-3 "for-parts" units on the shelf right now he said are all the same. He did mention the mounting bracket boss (for the tranny to cradle mount) is different, but the bellhousing bolt pattern is not.

I also checked with Wausau Engine, where I was told that the 3.8 block's trans bolt pattern for FWD was much smaller then the one for the RWD cars.

I can imagine they've had more then a few guys ask to have a 90's series II supercharged engine machined to accept a starter on the opposite side of the block, (in order to to turn a V6 Regal into a "kinda Grand National sorta" but do it way cheaper then actually BUYING a grand national) only to have to explain to them that a 3800 doesn't bolt up to a 200-r4, and they'd have to switch to a Camaro-Firebird 2.8/3.1 700-r4, only a 700's mount is not in the right place, so they'd have to spend lots of money to modify the crossmember to get the thing to fit. Knowing the way these guys operate - no-nonsense easy does it, keep it simple - they probably ended most of those conversations with "waste of time and money, put a 455 in it"

So that settles it, you want a mid 80's 3.8 out of a front-wheel drive car.

By the way, most of central Wisconsin's automotive professionals now think that the unnamed "Carb'd Buick 3.8L in a fiero kid" is crazy. If you think like me, this means you no longer want to do this, no, now you HAVE to do it. It's how real hotrodders think, after all.

About regulators. you need a by-pass style regulator to use the return line. It will have a special return port on it. Using a by-pass regulator for a carb setup using an EFI pump is preferred, if not a necessity altogether. Without a by-pass, you put a huge strain on the fuel pump. Chances are you can get by without it here, since TBI pressure is only a bit higher then a carb setup. If you start smoking fuel pumps, go by-pass.

Anything front drive and non-3800 should do. Make sure the engine retains the distributor provision! Who knows what's been swapped around over the years. You may very well find a car with a 3800 swapped in to replace a blown 3.8, but the upper intake off the 3.8 was put on because the 3800 intake got cracked and so on and so on....
Here's the scoop on FWD 3.8's

Certain 3.8 engines have a VIN code of B, they were multi-port injected and produced 140hp. This engine has a flat tappet cam

all 3.8 engines with a vin code 3, have a roller cam...
older vin 3 engines are rated at 125hp, they are multi-port injected

86-88 models (RPO LG3) have sequential fuel injection and were rated at 145hp

The roller cam is a bonus. Horsepower output ratings here mostly mean squat, since they depend on the fuel system, and you are changing that. With a well tuned 4 barrel carb and the heads port-matched to the 252 intake manifold (or edelbrock performer) some decent exhaust manifolds and no catalyst, I'd guess you could see 200hp easy. You stand to gain a lot by losing the emissions bits. The other trade off is the less-efficient carb over the EFI means fuel economy will be rather crappy, but you'll get more power. Hey, it's just a little Fiero......

The avatar is one nobody ever gets right, and that's probably expected because it's such a rare car. It's a carousel red '69 GTO Judge convertible, one of 108 made, and it's sadly not mine. It's just the car I dream of owning if a few hundred grand ever comes my way. Obviously, I'm first and foremost a convertible freak, but life has been rather tragic, since I've almost bought several old ragtop cars but had to back down because I couldn't manage to afford the work. On the list are a '74 LeMans that was
missing most it's sheetmetal from the door handles down - the interior was perfect, the top looked brand new, but the bottom was rusted away to nothing.
Another was a '67 Electra 225, the top was thrashed, top well, trunk floor and most of the quarter panels were rotted to nothing. The interior smelled like something died in it. It looked like it, too.

A 70 Mustang, this one was near perfect from every side. Except underneath... turns out the floors were rusted away. So was the part of the unibody that used to be under the floors....

My one and only was a 70 Galaxy XL. It was bright red with a white top and seats, and a red carpet and dash. It had a 390, holley 4160 4 barrel on a weiand intake, mallory hyfire ignition, super comp headers, and dual cherry bomb mufflers. It was the size of a tank and sounded like a whole fleet of 'em. It wasn't super fast, as it weighted over 2 tons, but it was sure quicker then most people thought a cruise-ship sized 2 door would be. With huge rear M/T sportsman tires on Centerline autodrag wheels bolted up to the detroit locker fitted 9-inch rear, it did some decent burnouts, too.

I sold it. Made a few bucks over what I had in it, but still... I'm an idiot sometimes.

[petro57]

Originally Posted by Ragtop_Renegade

Well, yesterday I finally got motivated to hunt down my "w" body shop manual I reference for anything 88-up 3800. Now that I have it back, I was checking out the engine disassembly pics and got a nasty surprise - I couldn't see a distributor hole! So I traced my steps, made some phone calls and figured out where my memory got side-tracked.



I was thinking the 3800 series II lost it's distributor drive (thanks to a front mount oil pump) but it was, in fact, the 1988 series I. To swap in a distributor, you must find a pre-88 block. Identify the correct block by checking for the aluminum dummy plug in the rear. If the engine is still together, the intake plenum will read "3.8L" If it says "3800" it's a no-go. It must be a FWD block, and that's error #2:



I screwed this up a bit. The first part is correct, the BOP pattern disappeared after '87. The next time a 3.8 showed up in a rear drive car, (1989 20th anniversary Turbo Trans-AM) it was wearing the Gm metric bolt pattern. This would continue on, as all 4th gen 3.8L f-bodies use this pattern also.
The second is not. This is what required making phone calls. After much deliberation I have come to the conclusion that ALL FRONT DRIVE 3.8L ENGINES HAVE A METRIC BOLT PATTERN. I wanted to be extra,extra sure of this, so I called up local tranny guru Rick Nylund of Nylund Transmission who said, that while it's been a few years since he's done a th-440 that was pulled from the car in-house, he does not remember ever seeing more then one type of bellhousing. I know, I know, you're wondering why I'm talking about automatics when you have a 4 speed. Well, here's why: The TH-440 was used behind both the 3.8 and as an optional upgrade to 2.8L cars. If the 3.8 had a different bellhousing, Rick would have known the difference. He has 2-3 "for-parts" units on the shelf right now he said are all the same. He did mention the mounting bracket boss (for the tranny to cradle mount) is different, but the bellhousing bolt pattern is not.

I also checked with Wausau Engine, where I was told that the 3.8 block's trans bolt pattern for FWD was much smaller then the one for the RWD cars.

I can imagine they've had more then a few guys ask to have a 90's series II supercharged engine machined to accept a starter on the opposite side of the block, (in order to to turn a V6 Regal into a "kinda Grand National sorta" but do it way cheaper then actually BUYING a grand national) only to have to explain to them that a 3800 doesn't bolt up to a 200-r4, and they'd have to switch to a Camaro-Firebird 2.8/3.1 700-r4, only a 700's mount is not in the right place, so they'd have to spend lots of money to modify the crossmember to get the thing to fit. Knowing the way these guys operate - no-nonsense easy does it, keep it simple - they probably ended most of those conversations with "waste of time and money, put a 455 in it"

So that settles it, you want a mid 80's 3.8 out of a front-wheel drive car.

By the way, most of central Wisconsin's automotive professionals now think that the unnamed "Carb'd Buick 3.8L in a fiero kid" is crazy. If you think like me, this means you no longer want to do this, no, now you HAVE to do it. It's how real hotrodders think, after all.

About regulators. you need a by-pass style regulator to use the return line. It will have a special return port on it. Using a by-pass regulator for a carb setup using an EFI pump is preferred, if not a necessity altogether. Without a by-pass, you put a huge strain on the fuel pump. Chances are you can get by without it here, since TBI pressure is only a bit higher then a carb setup. If you start smoking fuel pumps, go by-pass.

Anything front drive and non-3800 should do. Make sure the engine retains the distributor provision! Who knows what's been swapped around over the years. You may very well find a car with a 3800 swapped in to replace a blown 3.8, but the upper intake off the 3.8 was put on because the 3800 intake got cracked and so on and so on....
Here's the scoop on FWD 3.8's

Certain 3.8 engines have a VIN code of B, they were multi-port injected and produced 140hp. This engine has a flat tappet cam

all 3.8 engines with a vin code 3, have a roller cam...
older vin 3 engines are rated at 125hp, they are multi-port injected

86-88 models (RPO LG3) have sequential fuel injection and were rated at 145hp

The roller cam is a bonus. Horsepower output ratings here mostly mean squat, since they depend on the fuel system, and you are changing that. With a well tuned 4 barrel carb and the heads port-matched to the 252 intake manifold (or edelbrock performer) some decent exhaust manifolds and no catalyst, I'd guess you could see 200hp easy. You stand to gain a lot by losing the emissions bits. The other trade off is the less-efficient carb over the EFI means fuel economy will be rather crappy, but you'll get more power. Hey, it's just a little Fiero......

The avatar is one nobody ever gets right, and that's probably expected because it's such a rare car. It's a carousel red '69 GTO Judge convertible, one of 108 made, and it's sadly not mine. It's just the car I dream of owning if a few hundred grand ever comes my way. Obviously, I'm first and foremost a convertible freak, but life has been rather tragic, since I've almost bought several old ragtop cars but had to back down because I couldn't manage to afford the work. On the list are a '74 LeMans that was
missing most it's sheetmetal from the door handles down - the interior was perfect, the top looked brand new, but the bottom was rusted away to nothing.
Another was a '67 Electra 225, the top was thrashed, top well, trunk floor and most of the quarter panels were rotted to nothing. The interior smelled like something died in it. It looked like it, too.

A 70 Mustang, this one was near perfect from every side. Except underneath... turns out the floors were rusted away. So was the part of the unibody that used to be under the floors....

My one and only was a 70 Galaxy XL. It was bright red with a white top and seats, and a red carpet and dash. It had a 390, holley 4160 4 barrel on a weiand intake, mallory hyfire ignition, super comp headers, and dual cherry bomb mufflers. It was the size of a tank and sounded like a whole fleet of 'em. It wasn't super fast, as it weighted over 2 tons, but it was sure quicker then most people thought a cruise-ship sized 2 door would be. With huge rear M/T sportsman tires on Centerline autodrag wheels bolted up to the detroit locker fitted 9-inch rear, it did some decent burnouts, too.

I sold it. Made a few bucks over what I had in it, but still... I'm an idiot sometimes.

Dear Renegade
thanks for the corrections and your research. I've got it now...a mid 80's 3.8 from a FWD. I'm going to start looking for a complete car first. Sometimes this turns out less expensive. It might take a while to find what I need but it'll turn up. Yes, like you said...I HAVE to do it now! When someone doubts that something can be done it just makes me want to do it that much more.
Tell those guys if they ever see a fiero with a 3.8 and it has a Mississippi tag it might just be me!
In the meantime, I have ordered from Summit, an Offenhauser 4 bbl manifold and a 390 holley to put on my standard shift fiero to squeeze a little more out of my ironduke. The fiero store has a high performance cam that I might get also. Maybe that will keep me happy for a while until I find my 3.8.

Sounds like I need to get a by-pass type fuel regulator. I'll do that right away. Wouldn't want to have a fire.
Yes, that Judge had me fooled. That would be a nice one to have.
Gotta go. Hope you find the fiero you're looking for.
Keep on rodding and thanks again
Petro57

[Ragtop_Renegade]

Not really a fire issue, since there's no oxygen (around the submerged pump motor) to allow the fuel to ignite. The motor is also sealed, so there's little threat of a burned up fuel pump causing a fire. The issue is the fuel pump wearing out due to all the strain. With a dead end regulator, you're slowing the flood to a trickle, and building up line pressures in the process. The result is like trying to push a heavy load up a steep hill. Eventually, you wear out and give up. The same thing happens to a high pressure fuel pump, and that's why EFI systems always have a by-pass system. Changing in-tank fuel pumps is NOT fun, so a happy pump = happy you.

I haven't mentioned yet, but your flywheel is going to be a challenge. There is only one manual trans application for the Buick V-6, and it's a 3800 series engine - the later model f body cars. Camaro and Firebird base models with a 3800 (and a manual trans, obviously) are the target for a flywheel.

Now, be aware the 3800 uses an internal balance shaft while the 3.8 does not. That's an issue because many engines rely on the flywheel/flexplate as part of the equation for a smooth, well balanced rotating assembly. I don't know how the 3.8 was balanced, the 3800 is probably an internal balanced engine, meaning the flywheel is a "zero balanced" or "neutral balanced" type. (they both mean the same thing)

If the 3.8 is also an internal balance engine, you'll be OK, as long as the bolt pattern for the crank is the same. If it's an external balance, you'll have to take a 3800 flywheel along with a 3.8 flexplate to a machine shop, essentially hold up both and say "I want you to balance THIS one so it's equal to THIS one. Then pray you found a machine shop with people skilled enough to do it. If you're lucky, they can pull it off with only the flywheel. Otherwise, you may be told they need to have the crank, pistons and rods so they can balance everything together as a whole. Hello, dismantle engine.

Before you do anything you do need to make sure a 3800 flywheel physically fits the boss of a 3.8 crank. And then there's the issue of a pilot bushing.....

As far as I know, you're the first to fit a 3.8 with a manual transaxle. This may get complicated. Still thinking like me? Then you know it's also going to be fun.

[petro57]

Originally Posted by Ragtop_Renegade

Not really a fire issue, since there's no oxygen (around the submerged pump motor) to allow the fuel to ignite. The motor is also sealed, so there's little threat of a burned up fuel pump causing a fire. The issue is the fuel pump wearing out due to all the strain. With a dead end regulator, you're slowing the flood to a trickle, and building up line pressures in the process. The result is like trying to push a heavy load up a steep hill. Eventually, you wear out and give up. The same thing happens to a high pressure fuel pump, and that's why EFI systems always have a by-pass system. Changing in-tank fuel pumps is NOT fun, so a happy pump = happy you.

I haven't mentioned yet, but your flywheel is going to be a challenge. There is only one manual trans application for the Buick V-6, and it's a 3800 series engine - the later model f body cars. Camaro and Firebird base models with a 3800 (and a manual trans, obviously) are the target for a flywheel.

Now, be aware the 3800 uses an internal balance shaft while the 3.8 does not. That's an issue because many engines rely on the flywheel/flexplate as part of the equation for a smooth, well balanced rotating assembly. I don't know how the 3.8 was balanced, the 3800 is probably an internal balanced engine, meaning the flywheel is a "zero balanced" or "neutral balanced" type. (they both mean the same thing)

If the 3.8 is also an internal balance engine, you'll be OK, as long as the bolt pattern for the crank is the same. If it's an external balance, you'll have to take a 3800 flywheel along with a 3.8 flexplate to a machine shop, essentially hold up both and say "I want you to balance THIS one so it's equal to THIS one. Then pray you found a machine shop with people skilled enough to do it. If you're lucky, they can pull it off with only the flywheel. Otherwise, you may be told they need to have the crank, pistons and rods so they can balance everything together as a whole. Hello, dismantle engine.

Before you do anything you do need to make sure a 3800 flywheel physically fits the boss of a 3.8 crank. And then there's the issue of a pilot bushing.....

As far as I know, you're the first to fit a 3.8 with a manual transaxle. This may get complicated. Still thinking like me? Then you know it's also going to be fun.

Renegade,
I see what you mean about the flywheel. I'll have to be careful and hope I find some good help. Where there's a will, there's a way.
I was just on ebaymotors and saw a fiero for sale that has a jasper 3.4 installed. They were raving about how much power it has over the 2.8 and how well it handled. That makes me want to do it that much more.
Thanks for the help
Petro57