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Old 07-10-2004, 09:47 PM   #61
christophv
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just short words to your patriotism: after all I heard and saw, I have to disagree (have you ever been to europe? no slums, no terror-angst, no murders on tv all day, no action news, no car chases/gunfights etc, no poverty at all? heck, people don't lock their cars and houses here!!)

And you say there's no market in China?
All I can say is DAMN I'm not a businessmen sitting in China right now, because right now it's the time you can make BIG BIG money in this exploding market.
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Old 07-10-2004, 10:09 PM   #62
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Quote:
just short words to your patriotism: after all I heard and saw, I have to disagree (have you ever been to europe? no slums, no terror-angst, no murders on tv all day, no action news, no car chases/gunfights etc, no poverty at all? heck, people don't lock their cars and houses here!!)

I've never been to Europe so I may be misinformed. But, there are no slums in London? There is no terror angst in Europe? What about that little incident in Spain a while back? Is their no poverty in some of the Eastern European countries? Glad to see that whole thing about Slobadan Milosavic (spell) was another US media fabrication. Nothing bad ever happens in Europe? I bet nobody's shit stinks either.
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Old 07-10-2004, 10:28 PM   #63
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Hey I was referring to the EU where I live in - those eastern european countries, russian shrapnels are something different than UK, Germany or France right? Didn't saw any slums in London, Have you ever been to Norway or Germany? My dad took some american customers around here and they wanted to see the slums and couldn't understand there were simply non existant.

Since we were talking about car culture (at least I hope so), and in eastern european countries (which are pretty wealthy too, I went to Croatia last year) there are very few brands, especially brands with history in design and technology, I didn't include them
And no, no one here is anxious about terroristic acts. Only a "Why show anger or fear, it'll only make terroristic organisations stronger" mood.

what the hell has Milosevic, a serbian war criminal, to do with cars relating to cultures?

pleeease go back to topic, I tried to make points with specific target markets and price culture, if you're interested to go nuts for your flag open up a different thread.
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Old 07-10-2004, 10:36 PM   #64
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no offense, but you're a hypocrite! you're preaching the dribbles of car and cultures, yet between the bulk of your points, your jumping to political issues and regional patriotism. I saw a clash coming when this thread started. People just can't accept opinions and back off after a point has been made. It's only natural that you'd only preach about the cars of your country. Glad I am unbiased in this, since I don't necessarily drive an American car.

And I think you're the one who started this mess by initiating a opinionated about European automotive technological superiority:

Quote:
Originally Posted by christophv
well, sometimes europeans are amused about the american engineering because the opinion "same shit for 50 years" is spread wide.

europeans focus on economy perfection combined with outstanding design. outstanding isn't always meant as "neat" but as "different" -

in our eyes, all american cars are the same -
there are these long bulgy sedans and oversized useless trucks -


no way you could show up with this shapeless ship. V8 SOHC? cmon


european design, focus on distinguishability (what a word) 2.2l HDI - contra innovation: lots of unexpected problems possible, not customer friendliest

EU design ownz US design
just look at this 70s citroen cx!
http://www.carolineconnolly.com/fjp/...ame-lane-1.jpg

Japanese/asian designs are always kinda agressive and pretend to be sporty imho
small engines, mostly high revving but sometimes very reliable.
choice over european cars when it comes to pricing.

But Asia also produces the smallest, ugliest cars. I heard their roads are a lot slimmer which excuses such things:


stereotype -
american cars are large, dull assembled, I-dont-care-I-need-4x-more-gas ships

european cars are mid-sized, economic, modern, I-would-fit-in-a-modern-art-museum clockworks with teething troubles

asian cars are small, ordinary reliable/designed, I'm-cheaper-not-better rev-devils



edit:


europe still is. FSI, DSG, HDI, ABS, ESP, ASR, cats - sorry, but I don't know any american innovations.
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Old 07-11-2004, 12:01 AM   #65
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Re: Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1082
Ok, in case you didn't know, there is no East Asian domestic Markets yet... but as of NOW there is no Chinese Domestic Market.

For the love of economists world wide please do not ever utter those words again



Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1082
I'm sorry I've never heard of CERN, but I have heard of the INTERNET, which indeed was an American innovation... and whatever you say, most peple will agree this is still the best place to live.

That is the equivalent of saying you are a professor of history and never heard of Herodot.

Please learn more about CERN if you care even a little bit about physics. It does house the largest collider in Europe, and it was recently the place where quark-gluon plasma was reproduced, not to mention it is currently in a big race to find the Higgs Boson before Fermilab.

And you would also know that CERN was the origin of the WWW:

Quote:
Berners-Lee was working at CERN (Centre Européan pour la Recherche Nucléaire; European Laboratory for Particle Physics), in Geneva, Switzerland, when he developed the W.W.W.
http://www.historyoftheinternet.com/chap6.html
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Old 07-11-2004, 01:23 AM   #66
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Wow, this thread got more out of hand then SRT4 v EVO VIII... As for the arguement of "whos contributed more technology to cars" I would have to say that its pretty even between all the major car producing countries in the world. You could go on for hours listing innovations that Germans, French, Americans, and Japanese have come up with. There is no winning that arguement.

Americans all think that the little European hatchs are as rediculous as all Europeans think that the American love of SUVs is. Really its all an economic/social thing. Americans can afford to pay for SUVs because of the low gas prices. Other then some middle eastern countries, gas is the cheapest in the US. We get gas for less then half as much as the major European countries do. Americans become unhappy when our gas prices topped $2.00/gallon. If prices in Europe were this low you would see many more large cars. But because the price is so high, the average European opts for much smaller, easier to pay for hatchbacks. Personally, I as an American hate SUVs. Why so many soccer moms and yuppies think they need SUVs is beyond me. Its rediculous. There is nothing you can do with an SUV that you cant do with a Truck or a Van, both of which are less expensive.

Cheap Gas = SUV Expensive Gas = Compacts/Hatches

As for America being the better place to live... America has one of the highest per capita incomes in the world, but if your below the average, it sucks. I've done some research on this, and if your not in the upper or higher 50% of the middle class in America, your better off in Canada or Western Europe, where taxes benefit the lower class above the upper class. I love that quote "pretty much everyone thinks america is the best place to live." I cracked up laughing when I read that. That is so typical of what too many Americans believe and too many Europeans think we all believe. If your making alot of money, America is great.
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Old 07-11-2004, 02:21 AM   #67
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I'd just like to add that there are people who buy SUVs for large cargo space, towing and payload capabilities, and offroading. It's not just for fat asses who like their seats higher.
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Old 07-11-2004, 02:26 AM   #68
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

I agree with DinanM3 on this one. America greatly favors the rich, the business owners, the corrupt merchants of death and oil, especially right now with Bush in office and a war going on.
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Old 07-11-2004, 11:08 AM   #69
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Z_Fanatic I agree with you, I was pointing out stereotypes in Europe.

When a european pays 30,000€ for a new car, he expects lots of modern technology for that. Power doesn't bait customers here as much as security, comfort and extraordinary design.
In european countries you're allowed to drive at least 85mph on our "highways" (sorry, don't know the exact pendant), and in germany you're even allowed to drive as fast as you want to on most "Autobahnen".

In the 70s, most american cars weren't capable to drive more than 100mph, but in europe there have always been such fast cars. of course they hadn't as nearly as much torque.
that's why rally, touring car championships and other formulas developed quickly in europe and Nascar and drag races in the US.

And that's why I brought up the "old V8? no thanks" opinion here in europe. Of course, there are a lot of cheap cars here, but let's face it, most cars in europe are produced with much more expenditure than in the us.

Americans tend to like long sedans with grills and smooth shapes or big SUVs/Trucks.
People here are very easily bored with designs, so am I.
I can say, I don't like smooth sedans and big SUVs.
That's what I wanted to say, "I don't like this design" not "I don't like america"
Be very sure there are lots of disgusting designs here too.

I didn't write much about the bad things about european cars.
But that might be the lack of knowledge because there are not much disadvantages compared to US technology, afaik.

The disadvantages I found are the high prices and the teething troubles of new technology.
That's all, the technology is still superior.

Quote:
It's only natural that you'd only preach about the cars of your country
see, if I had the choice to get any car, with anything done to it/in it, be sure it'll be an american muscle car.

I wouldn't say I'm generally biased.
I only know that the Corvette Z28 for example, had basically the same chassis like my old benz down there, but with leaf springs??
That's just not what I would expect from a sports car!
(edit: jup, I know, third generation had coil springs for the rear wheels right?)

For that patriotism thing: I'm german and 100% anti-patriot. The color of my flag is the very very last thing I'd care about, far behind the brand of my toilet paper. I feel as a european -
And I don't think that any car from here automatically ownz other cars.
Show me advantages of US cars, I'm willing to see them.

Of course this was predetermined to become a clash, but I enjoy stormy discussions, no haters please
And again, I say european design/technology is superior to the US because of selective buyers, not "the people here are smarter, richer, better and make better cars anyways"

remember, english was taught in school for 8 years, it's not my mother tongue so be polite if there are many faults
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Old 07-11-2004, 02:32 PM   #70
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Neutrino... what don't you want me to utter?
You must be Mad, last time I checked, China wasn't a capitalist country which means it's whole 1.1 billion potential consumers do NOT make up what we would consider a free market. The entire world is awaiting when the communsit will fall, a capitalist government will be set up, and THEN China will have the largest Market in the world.
And all this America hating... damn, we are your kin for the most part... majority of people in the US are of European descent... so Y did my ancestor leave Europe and come here?
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Old 07-11-2004, 02:57 PM   #71
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

The soviet Union, while Communist gave consumers quite a choice of automobiles to purchase. Wartburgs, Trabants, Ladas, Skodas, Zaz's, Syrenas - etc.
The real difference is that China is a rural country, the western countries in the Soviet Union had industry, the car factories, and the jobs all existed before Communism took over, unlike China which had practically nothing, and for all intents and purposes still has practically nothing. This is changing, however.
I like european cars, the Renault Le Car and the Yugo, were very good cars. The Le Car was everything an American made compact should have been it had a soft suspsension, super comfortable seats, and a decent dose of power - it was supperior to the U.S. made subcompacts however. What this must say about France, is that they're alot like America - only smaller.
The Yugo, is a fun car, but doesn't really say much or anything about Yugoslavia - it comments on outdated borrowed technology and cheap communist labor (communist when it was being sold here in the U.S. anyway) but it's fun as hell to drive, and practical and I'd take a used Yugo over any new subcompact anyday.
My Subaru 360 is an awsome automotive analogy to Japan's economy and society during it's period of production from 1958 to 1969.
The car is very tiny, and very cheap, it has a soft suspension with lots of travel, in 1958 the vast majority of Japan's roads were still unpaved. It runs with a very simple mechanism, and is as basic as it can be, however it represents new thinking, it's shape and the use of fiberglass made it seem very modern when it came out. For many people in Japan, the 360 (nicknamed "ladybug") was the first car they owned. By the end of it's production run, it was outclassed, the Japanese demanded more power, more room, and a more modern design - what had been seen as a triumph of japanese engineering ten years earlier looked very outdated in 1969. It's interesting to note that the 360 was sold in the U.S. and didn't do so well - it was a little too small, and too different for American taste, and the gas shortage was still several years off and nobody had need for a car that could deliver 66mpg economy, but had a top speed of only 69mph.
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Old 07-11-2004, 03:06 PM   #72
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Re: Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1082
The entire world is awaiting when the communsit will fall, a capitalist government will be set up, and THEN China will have the largest Market in the world.
that's not gonna happen fool, the government is opening up for twenty years now on their way to democracy.
And this twenty years ago, it wasn't even allowed to own cars, now the chinese send 220 billion sms a year
A co-worker of my father went there last year and said he went to cities that were indistinguishable from european cities. Yes, I also know there's a contrast to that.

Quote:
And all this America hating
where?
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Old 07-11-2004, 05:26 PM   #73
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China is quickly becoming more and more capitalist. Since Britain returned Hong Kong to China, the Chinese government has seen that capitalism seems to work. Hong Kong is easily the most productive city in China, and among the best in the world. China would like to expand the success of Hong Kongs free market. The effect of China's attempt to become more and more capitalist can be seen in the opening of the Shanghai stock market (China's version of the NYSE) as well as others. I recently saw a segment on CNN about the Chinese auto industry. They are actually beginning to build cars with the plan to sell them in America and Europe within the decade. If China can maintain a Capitalist economy then I would watch out if I were Detroit, Munich, etc...

O, and I also saw a page on supercars.net about a version of the New Ford Focus to be sold in China.
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Old 07-11-2004, 08:51 PM   #74
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True that, plus I know that VW is developing a car only for the chinese market.
Either China will enrich world's market or just eat it up

cu
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Old 07-11-2004, 10:13 PM   #75
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This is the funniest thread. It's great reading what Europeans' and Americans' perception of China really is.

Even the ones with kinder words about China's buying power still miss the mark by about 1000 miles.

VW did a very smart thing by setting up in China as soon as it opened it's markets. That was 1984-1987. The VW Santana (you guys know it as the Jetta I think) is the number one selling car in China right now.

Now it is for all practical purposes a capitalist country. A land of opportunity. VW-Audi still have a strong hold in the car market. Passats, A6's are all being produced in my home town of Shanghai. BMW just opened up a production line for 3 and 5 series. Mercedes is tripping over itself to set up shop. Buick, Mazda, Jeep, Honda all have production lines in China.

And before anyone says it's simply due to cheap labour, don't make a fool of yourself. These cars are made to be sold in the Chinese market. They're not exported to other countries. It's partly to reduce the operating budget. But mostly to appease the Chinese government and attract patriotic buys from the people (as we don't have a local car industry worthy of mention). And of course to dodge tariffs and make the cars more affordable.

So before you label China as a non-market, or developing market, get you facts straight. China's market may be expanding still, but it's already huge.
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