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03-17-2009, 06:23 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
Technically you are right, however I have no clue how GM would do this or any other car company. But you can have supply 12 volts to as many components you want to with that one set of contacts, whether you have two wires attached to the one contact that split off going somewhere else, or one wire that goes to a component that also has another wire there that leaves and goes somewhere else.
As long as you don't exceed the current rating of the contacts and also the wire going to the contacts and leaving the contacts of coarse. The only real reason there would be to have two sets of normally open contacts on a really to control two different things would be if you have two different objects come on at the same time that operate at different voltages. For example, say in industrial wiring or any kind you can think of, you need an object to come on that runs off 24 volts dc and also another one come on that runs off of 208 Volts ac. and your control wiring for example lets say will be 120 volts ac. You would wire from your control switch, the hot wire to one side of your coil, the other side to your neutral. That would be your control circuit. When you flip your switch the coil energizes and the contacts close. You would have two power circuits in this case, the 24 volts dc circuit wired in with one of the sets of contacts. And you 208 volts ac circuit wired in with the other set of contacts. As long as the contacts are rated for the volts and how many amps you are pulling from each set of contacts you are good. That was just an example to explain that you don't need two sets of contacts to control to electrical components. Most industrial devises as well use an extra set of contacts as well to keep the coil energized after pushing a start button, not a flip switch, in series with a stop button, as a safety feature. For example, you have a supply voltage going to your stop button which is normally closed, then from there to your start button which is normally open, but one set of your relay contacts is in parallel with your start button. then from there you go to your relay coil. When you press the start button, the coil energizes, closing whatever normally closed contacts you have, the one in parallel with your start button keeps the coil energized so it stays engaged after you let off the start button. When the stop button is depressed everything shuts off. The other set of contacts could then be hooked to your power circuit. That set up is a lot safer than a normal flip switch in line with a coil. If power goes out, for example, someone doesn't think about it and starts messing with a piece of machinery, and the power comes back on they could get killed. But using the relay contacts to hold the coil energized keeps the machine off until the start button is pushed again. I just wanted to add that, has nothing really to do with cars I just added that b/c I said industrial wiring up above for an example and wanted to make sure I didn't get corrected on that even though I was just using it for an example. |
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03-17-2009, 07:32 AM | #17 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
I don't think there is any problem of current overload with logic circuits. The input impedence to logic circuits is high hence current draw is extremely low.
The question still remains. What conditions must be met for the pump relay to switch on once again after it has dropped out after 2 seconds? That is after the ignition has been switched on without cranking. Ponder on that. |
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03-17-2009, 07:51 AM | #18 | ||
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
Quote:
In the description I posted- the conditions are that the ECM must be seeing crank sensor pulses in order to re-energize the fuel pump (and injectors) relay. The oil pressure schematic shows the sensor going straight from the oil switch (where it seeks a ground with less than 4 psi pressure) to the instrument cluster. Pull your oil pressure switch wire off and ground it-- your car will run and the oil pressure warning icon on instrument cluster will come on. The car should not stall. If in doubt, I always test- so that I can fully understand the logic- why guess what is going on?... things change, engineering philosophies change. I always thought oil pressure was part of the equation, until my sister in law burnt up her Astro van with no oil-15 years ago- in that application the oil pressure switch is in PARALLEL with the fuel pump relay- to act as "a back-up" as per the fuel pump description on that vehicle....
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Automotive A/C Engineer with: '99 IH 4700 Toy Hauler (2) '95 GEO Prizms both maroon '99 GMC Yukon '95 Chev 3500, 454 Dually Crew Cab- 145k miles- Wife's Camel trailer puller. '94 Astro- 370k miles '94 Firebird Formula- 5.7L 180k miles- gone- '92 Chevy Lumina Van 3.8L 264k '86 GMC S-15 - 2.8L 154k '87 Buick Park Ave . 187k '86 Buick Park Ave 3.8L 199k miles- gone '77 Chevy Vega- 2.5L 175k miles gone but not forgotten '68 Camaro 396 4 spd RS/SS -72k miles- |
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03-17-2009, 08:13 AM | #19 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
Ok brcidd,
That's fine. I'll be changing the oil soon on the Cavalier and will check out the oil pressure switch. I'm too lazy to go out into the cold now. It's actually a 1998 Cavalier that my wife uses. I just happen to have Chiltons that covers 1995 - 2000 models. The chances are that the fuel pump wiring is as per Chilton diagram. I might be wrong. Anyway it was an interesting discussion and makes us think outside of the box. |
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03-17-2009, 10:32 AM | #20 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
I learned 20 years ago not to buy Chilton's - That's why I stick with Mitchell-On-demand and use OEM manuals as much as possible. I am currently selling all my paper back OEM manuals in lieu of the electronic on-line which are much more handier. I may even still have the J-car manual for '98- I'd have to look...
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Automotive A/C Engineer with: '99 IH 4700 Toy Hauler (2) '95 GEO Prizms both maroon '99 GMC Yukon '95 Chev 3500, 454 Dually Crew Cab- 145k miles- Wife's Camel trailer puller. '94 Astro- 370k miles '94 Firebird Formula- 5.7L 180k miles- gone- '92 Chevy Lumina Van 3.8L 264k '86 GMC S-15 - 2.8L 154k '87 Buick Park Ave . 187k '86 Buick Park Ave 3.8L 199k miles- gone '77 Chevy Vega- 2.5L 175k miles gone but not forgotten '68 Camaro 396 4 spd RS/SS -72k miles- |
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03-17-2009, 08:16 PM | #21 | ||
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
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My bad, lol. I thought he asked about connections to a relay, and overlooked where he was talking about splitting off going to a logic circuit. I seen it again he was talking about his oil pressure switch. Either way I was right about the relays. It's still the same for a switch too yes you can control more than one thing with it. And yes you are right it going to a logic circuit it's not going to draw many amps. I was just plainly letting him know that you can have as many components hooked to the output of one switch or relay contacts as your wires and contacts will allow for simply because he asked, not particularly talking about his circuitry in general. Too answer your last question though, where you said ponder on that, that's real easy if a GM is like some other cars I worked on. When talking abut the control circuit, (when you turn the key on it sends 12 volts to your coil in your fuel pump relay). The other side of that coil is not hooked to just a regular ground on the vehicle. It is hooked to the ecm, and gets ground pulses as needed, to energize the coil, which then closes the contacts completing the power circuit to your fuel pump. |
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03-17-2009, 08:35 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
Ok, well, my buick is different, when you turn the key you do not have a wire from your ignition that feeds 12 volts to your coil inside the relay. One side of the coil in the relay is grounded permanently. And the other side gets it's positive from the ECM, well, PCM for buick, same thing. But either way that's what energizes the coil inside the fuel pump relay on either vehicle. Which is how your fuel pump can then cut back on after it has dropped out.
Of coarse you have to crank the vehicle though as well. But his problem was it not even cutting on for that 1st two seconds. Some times it does, and some times it doesn't. So the question is what won't allow that. So I don't even know why everyone here keeps talking about the oil pressure switch. Sounds like something loose in his ignition switch, causing the PCM to not send the votlage to the coil inside the fuel pump relay. Or a problem with PCM itself. We already discovered his fuel pump relay was good right? |
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03-18-2009, 05:10 AM | #23 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
The oil pressure switch was brought into the discussion by me because in many cases it forms part of the fuel system wiring and it's good to know how things work or don't work. We know that the pump relay is not directly activated by the ignition key. The original poster has swapped out the pump relay with the same results. That leaves 3 suspects. The ignition key, a bad wiring connection or, I hope not, the PCM.
The above fault conditions might cause the dash warning lights to flicker. It might be something to look out for. On reflection about why the oil pressure switch was dropped out of the equation in later models, it might be that in the event of a collision, you would want the fuel pump to switch off immediately to prevent a fire. It often takes several seconds for an engine to lose oil pressure once it has stopped. |
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03-19-2009, 05:47 AM | #24 | ||
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
Quote:
The original poster needs to follow a schematic and check at the fuel pump relay for voltage from the PCM when switched to run. then check for voltage from the fuel pump fuse to relay, then then jumper fuel pump circuit fuse to fuel pump circuit, etc. This would tell if the problem was in one of the fuel pump circuits and wich one or whether it was a problem wih the ignition switch or PCM not energizing the relay. Does turning the ignition switch to RUN activqte the instrrument warning lights when the fuel pump problem is happening? |
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03-19-2009, 07:25 AM | #25 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
Now that I come to think of it, the OP might also want to check the relay socket itself. I would spray something like WD-40 into it. I've also found that this trick works for flat pinned relays. Give the flat pins a slight twist with a pair needle-nosed pliers. This lets the edges of the pins cut into the socket connection below giving a much better connection.
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03-19-2009, 08:20 PM | #26 | ||
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
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If they have more than one set of contacts for the run position then it's still possible the ignition switch is bad even if getting power to coil, instrument panel, etc. If anyone knows please reply. |
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03-19-2009, 10:12 PM | #27 | ||
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
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Anyway, all that matters in this case is whether or not he is getting power to the fuel pump relay terminals where he should be and if power is getting to the fuel pump by following the wiring schematic. |
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03-20-2009, 05:56 AM | #28 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
Late model cars use the Engine Control Module to switch just about everything on or off. The ignition on wire runs to an input of an integrated circuit. Outputs from that IC will turn relays on or off. So one wire can control as many outputs or relays as the manufacturer wants. You'll most probably find that the low oil pressure light is switched on or off by the ECM and not directly by the contacts on the oil pressure switch.
Logic circuits also convert analog signals to digital. If you take the oxygen sensor for example which gives a fluctuating voltage output, and connect it to the input of a logic circuit, the logic circuit will see 1volt for example as on and, a voltage below that as off. The manufacturer can decide what the threshhold voltage should be. So the oxygen sensor is either working or it is not in which case a check engine light will come on. Logic circuits can also be used as and gates in which case this input, and that input, plus that input, must be present before a relay can be switched on. We have seen in this discussion that the fuel pump relay can only come on again if signal pulses are received from the engine to indicate that the engine is running. I've tried to simplify things here so I hope this helps a bit. I did write this before breakfast. |
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04-14-2009, 05:23 PM | #29 | |
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Re: Fuel pump on/off
Changed the ignition with one from a '98 Malibu from a junk yard and solved the problem. It's been working without one false start since I changed it. Thanks for all your comments.
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