New type Spark Plug

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by shorod

There must be some fine print involved there, like for off-road applications only on a non-computerized engine. I don't see any way they could get 5 megawatts, even for a fraction of a second, using a standard coil and resistance spark plug wires. Power is not free, so even with a capacitor they are not going to be producing energy.

-Rod

I questioned this too. Spoke to one of their engineers and he said it was some sort of co-venture with a company called Sandia labs. I have seen every sidewire configuration known to man. Splitfire, Bosch 2, 3, 4, Fusion, E3 they all were same performance. This plug seems to increase throttle response and torque.

[shorod]

Interesting. Sandia Labs is rather respected, I'm not sure why they wouldn't tout that if it were true.

Looking over their physical description of the plug, it doesn't look much different from a standard spark plug. Instead of a carbon resistor though they refer to a "solid copper gas seal." I have no idea what they are trying to refer to there. If it's solid copper, it's not a gas. If it's just a copper seal to hold a gas in, there's no way that gas is such a great conductor that it would support the 5 (or 1 as I read elsewhere) million watt claim.

-Rod

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by shorod

Interesting. Sandia Labs is rather respected, I'm not sure why they wouldn't tout that if it were true.

Looking over their physical description of the plug, it doesn't look much different from a standard spark plug. Instead of a carbon resistor though they refer to a "solid copper gas seal." I have no idea what they are trying to refer to there. If it's solid copper, it's not a gas. If it's just a copper seal to hold a gas in, there's no way that gas is such a great conductor that it would support the 5 (or 1 as I read elsewhere) million watt claim.

-Rod

Please keep in mind I am certainly not an engineer but have over thirty years experience in automotive aftermarket and performance industry. The plug with 1 million watts looks to be there old platinum and iridium designs. I saw those same claims. I have read everything I can find about this 5 million watt claim and it seems that they have abandoned the precious metals game and gone to a copper core plug which is a much better conductor of electricity than platinum and iridium. I will find the information I read that Sandia labs was involved in their development. I believe they are both in Albuquerque. If and I say if they have harnessed this type of power it should make a monumental difference in performance. I am not sold yet but I do know that I have played the special metals game, multiple side wires, v cut in sidewise (Splitfire) so I am a skeptic. I tried because the concept makes sense and I actually feel throttle response and bottom end torque. Can't find any consumer who has put their car on a Dyno and has no bias or connection to Pulstar. I saw the Stacy David E3 testing. Surely a paid endorsement. Rod I am posting only to get input not to be argumentative. I find it quite interesting that we can build cars that can park themselves yet use spark plugs that look exactly like the one in original patent registry. Will keep you posted. Hopefully they will last longer than 200 miles like the E3 plugs I used. David

[shorod]

Nope, I'm not interpreting your comments as argumentative. I just have a difficult time understanding the math that Pulstar claims their device accomplishes. And, as you point out, the general concept of the spark plug has not changed significantly in the last 100+ years, and there may be a good reason for that. It's quite possible that the design is pretty well optimized already. The auto manufacturers spend a lot of time and money developing ways to meet the difficult emissions standards already, especially as they are required to add more an more weight to their vehicles for safety reasons. If the solution were as simple as using a new spark plug technology, especially one that has already been developed, why wouldn't they?

As for Pulstar's claims, I can find reviews that claim improvements, but there are also several claims of no appreciable change, or even a decline in fuel economy and/or performance. If they are claiming the plug dissipates 5 MegaWatts (MW), even for a (practically) instantaneous discharge, that's nearly impossible in a typical production ignition system. Even if they incorporate a capacitor, the capacitor is only getting charged by the ignition coil secondary winding. They are not claiming any means of stepping up the voltage.

The ignition system is a closed loop and includes the ignition coil secondary winding, the spark plug wire, and spark plug to ground. Power is equal to voltage(squared) divided by resistance. The resistance of the circuit needs to be considered here, so if we assume 5 MW and 40 kV from a very healthy ignition coil and system, then solve for R, that means the total circuit resistance from secondary winding to ground needs to be no more than 320 ohms. Since a typical resistor wire is is on the order of 3,000 to 12,000 ohms per foot, and the air gap is not a very good conductor, even under compression of a stoichiometrically perfect fuel mixture, that makes it VERY difficult to validate that 5MW claim.

-Rod

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by shorod

Nope, I'm not interpreting your comments as argumentative. I just have a difficult time understanding the math that Pulstar claims their device accomplishes. And, as you point out, the general concept of the spark plug has not changed significantly in the last 100+ years, and there may be a good reason for that. It's quite possible that the design is pretty well optimized already. The auto manufacturers spend a lot of time and money developing ways to meet the difficult emissions standards already, especially as they are required to add more an more weight to their vehicles for safety reasons. If the solution were as simple as using a new spark plug technology, especially one that has already been developed, why wouldn't they?

As for Pulstar's claims, I can find reviews that claim improvements, but there are also several claims of no appreciable change, or even a decline in fuel economy and/or performance. If they are claiming the plug dissipates 5 MegaWatts (MW), even for a (practically) instantaneous discharge, that's nearly impossible in a typical production ignition system. Even if they incorporate a capacitor, the capacitor is only getting charged by the ignition coil secondary winding. They are not claiming any means of stepping up the voltage.

The ignition system is a closed loop and includes the ignition coil secondary winding, the spark plug wire, and spark plug to ground. Power is equal to voltage(squared) divided by resistance. The resistance of the circuit needs to be considered here, so if we assume 5 MW and 40 kV from a very healthy ignition coil and system, then solve for R, that means the total circuit resistance from secondary winding to ground needs to be no more than 320 ohms. Since a typical resistor wire is is on the order of 3,000 to 12,000 ohms per foot, and the air gap is not a very good conductor, even under compression of a stoichiometrically perfect fuel mixture, that makes it VERY difficult to validate that 5MW claim.

-Rod

This is a reply that I got regarding the 5 million watts from the folks at Pulstar.

The formula for power is:
P=I*V
P is Power in watts
I is current in amperes
V is voltage

Our measured current is 500 A
Breakdown voltage is 10kV, so:
P = 500 * 10,000 = 5,000,000 watts or 5 MW

Our circuitry places the capacitor directly attached to the center wire in parallel with the coil having minimal inductance to the spark gap. The capacitor stores energy during the rise time of the coil (10’s of μs) and discharges in less than 1ns which peaks the current and the power of the breakdown spark

[shorod]

I still struggle with this. They would almost need to be measuring the current internal to the spark plug, where virtually no resistance is involved, to accurately measure 500A. Accurately being a key here. Using their numbers then, and Ohm's Law, P=I^2 * R. Solving for R = P / I^2 = 5E6 / 0.25E6, so there needs to be 20 ohms or less total resistance when they are measuring the current. I don't think they're going to get there in any real world application.

Not that any of this really matters. Heck, political candidates stretch the truth (and maybe even tell some lies) all throughout their campaigns and still get elected. Some people are even pleased with the results from certain candidates. Why can't the same go for spark plugs?

I'm not suggesting that these plugs can't make an improvement in some applications. I just like to be able to rationalize the claims a product makes before I purchase it. That being said, I have been known to use some products that I couldn't justify the claims, yet they seemed to work for me....

-Rod

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by shorod

I still struggle with this. They would almost need to be measuring the current internal to the spark plug, where virtually no resistance is involved, to accurately measure 500A. Accurately being a key here. Using their numbers then, and Ohm's Law, P=I^2 * R. Solving for R = P / I^2 = 5E6 / 0.25E6, so there needs to be 20 ohms or less total resistance when they are measuring the current. I don't think they're going to get there in any real world application.

Not that any of this really matters. Heck, political candidates stretch the truth (and maybe even tell some lies) all throughout their campaigns and still get elected. Some people are even pleased with the results from certain candidates. Why can't the same go for spark plugs?

I'm not suggesting that these plugs can't make an improvement in some applications. I just like to be able to rationalize the claims a product makes before I purchase it. That being said, I have been known to use some products that I couldn't justify the claims, yet they seemed to work for me....

-Rod

I was told by the inventor and Chief technical officer the following:

That they do have less than 20ohms resistance!
Impedance is the square root of inductance divided by capacitance, we have 10 nanohenries and 30 Pico farads
So:
Z=ÖL/C = 18.2ohms Ö 10nH/30pF
So assuming the spark occurs at 20kV then:
Current (I) = V/R
1098 amps = 20kV/18.2 ohms
Since the voltage is falling when the current is rising there is a crossing point about ½ way
So then V=10kV and I=500A so peak power is 5MW
We do not use any current sensing device that could affect the spark.
The measurement uses a B-Dot sensor that measures the B field of the arc itself
Yes, we know how to accurately measure 1000A rising in 1nS
James

[shorod]

It's been too long since I exercised my electrical engineering math, but when they're talking pico farads, they're not talking much capacitance at all. Granted it doesn't take a lot of current at high voltage to breakdown the air and cause an arc (ie: static electricity) but I'm still not buying the 500 A in a real world application with resistor plug wires.

-Rod

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by shorod

It's been too long since I exercised my electrical engineering math, but when they're talking pico farads, they're not talking much capacitance at all. Granted it doesn't take a lot of current at high voltage to breakdown the air and cause an arc (ie: static electricity) but I'm still not buying the 500 A in a real world application with resistor plug wires.

-Rod

Between them validating the technology and the results I am seeing in my car I am inclined to believe their technology is real. Have a buddy in suburb of Atlanta with a dyno. For now I believe they are better than any of the platinum, iridiums, double platinums and the E3 chinese made plugs by far. Keep you posted. Who knows they may foul like E3.

[reyan]

Sounds really good,i think some brand's products are really good like which is mentioned you in it and other is Bosch Automotive parts.