Oh man, Timing belt probs I've never seen

[Ninety7PrixGT]

97 Contour 4cyl. The timing belt jumps up and down on the cam sprockets a good 2in. Ok so, either worn belt, tensioner maybe, or not sure what else yet. I've ruled out the belt because as much play as there is, no way possible. And it looks decent still. So I have torn everything a part down to the crankshaft pully and bottom cover. Pulley is being rather difficult. I am still trying to figure out what the problem may be from here. Tensioner looks just fine, and what is driving me nuts is, when you pull the belt up from in between the two sprockets, the front sprocket will turn backwards towards the firewall until all the slack is taken up.

Why would this be happening? And not turning the back sprocket.

Next, I've had all the same junk off before to do the water pump and while it was a pain, I got the cs pulley and everything was tight when I did it, but this time, I get the camshafts good and when I go to crank on the pulley, it starts slipping or something inside. Camshafts stay still, crank shaft breaks free and feels and sounds like it goes to the next notch or whatever. So then I turn it back the other way so it goes back to where it was.

Why would this be happening?

So now I'm a little worried to go any further until I know why it is doing this. I can't get the bolt out traditional ways, so I'm just gonna throw a wrench on it and bump the starter. That's what I did last time and worked great, but am afraid to now with it acting like it is under tension. Impact wrench isn't an option either.

So hopefully I can get an idea on what the issue is from someone before going any further. Thanks

[old_master]

Sounds like not everything is not lined up correctly. Are you using the special tools to align the cams and the crankshaft?

http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-6...n=shopzilla_r1

[Ninety7PrixGT]

yes and no. Metal bar for camshafts, check. Haven't ever used the other one. I figure for now since I'm still in the "taking apart" phase, that is the only one I need to have in place. When I get the new belt back on, and whatever the heck has caused the problem in the first place, I will need to go with something like that other tool. I still have the markings on the pulley which is what I used last time. And when I say last time, I mean like 2 years ago. This whole loose belt issue is in the last week.

I did notice that the spring that goes from under the front camshaft sprocket to the tensioner is gone now, and with the slack in the belt that goes from the front sprocket all the way down into the crankshaft area, when I wiggle it, there is definitely something metal klinking around at the bottom of the cover or that area. The whole inside of the cover and everything is covered in almost like a felt dust bunny. Built up in some places more then others. Its not like plastic, but it doesn't seem like rubber intirely either. Picture like a light dryer lint that is soot black, and when you try to rub it between your fingers it disintergrates into dust. Anyways, I really want to get that bottom cover off, but am just worried something worse may happen in the process.

Now in regards to the timing, so long as I have the camshafts locked where they are supposed to be, moving the crank shaft isn't going to matter so long as it's lined up as well when I put the belt back on correct? Because really that's what's happening. Crank shaft slips, or skips, or something like that when I get to trying to turn the pulley bolt off. It moves moves moves then slip, and it's off about a 1/2" while the camshafts stay put. So come tomorrow i'm going to try the starter real quick and hope that the sudden hard hit will bust it loose. At this point I really don't see any other way except cut the bottom case off and get an all new one after, just to see what's going on down there, and even that won't do much good cuz the damn pulley will still be in the way.

Any other suggestions or comments certainly welcome

[old_master]

You might want to look around the net for the crankshaft tool. OTC makes it and it makes the job a snap.

When the bar is in position locking the cams, is the belt tight between the cams?

If you're trying to get the crankshaft damper bolt out, why not take the tire off, and the plastic shield, and go through the wheel well? You can get right on it with a socket and a ratchet, it's a piece of cake!

The black dust bunnies are from the belt, probably dancing around in there.

Seems to me the last one I did, there was an additional idler pulley they want you to install to force the belt to stay on the crank pulley for more degrees of rotation. Make sure the tensioner and the spring are installed correctly. That might be part of the problem.

[Ninety7PrixGT]

Belt tight, ooooh no definitely not. And the first thing did was take the tire and everything else off knowing I would have to from the water pump job I did. I figured the lint junk was the belt beiing eaten up. I'm expecting to find a spring and beariings siting in the bottom end of the timing cover. I'm going to try the starter trick to break the pulley bolt free and pray it works.

[Ninety7PrixGT]

It just keeps getting fricken WORSE!! Tried the whole 18mm wrench on the pulley bolt, get it good and locked in some where, and bump the starter ultimately a total of 6 times. Knowing that this worked before and isn't now, there was a prob. So where I mentioned before with the pulley slipping when I attempt to turn the bolt continues to be the problem.

Does anybody know what could be causing this?

I know there is a keyway in there, could that be it, it broke? Today unlike yesterday, when I try to take the bolt out, camshafts locked, and the crankshaft slips, I hear some kinda electronic something hum for about 1 sec. It comes from the passenger side, above the wheel well in the engine compartment, there is a big artery of wires, and a couple other electrical looking components, but what would kick on/start up/hum to life when I make the crankshaft pulley slip like it does? If you haven't read above the crankshaft pulley slip means camshafts locked in place, timing belt gets tight but doesn't move, and with a moderate amount of force on the pulley bolt, it just breaks loose and the pulley turns about 3/4-1". Either way, and everything else stays put. I know for damn sure it ain't right, and really wish 1, I knew why it was doing it, and 2, how to prevent it because the bolt is hard enough to get off, with the fricken pulley or whatever is slipping when trying to turn the bolt off is becoming extremely difficult and starting to really tick me off. And I've tried some creative ways thus far. So now I need to somehow crap a way to keep the damn pulley still while cranking on the bolt.

ANY ideas would be so helpful. Even if it has nothing to do with this. Challenge is HOLD the pulley still. That is what I need suggestions for. Tips and tricks to hold the damn thing from spinning so I can work the bolt. Much appreciated

[old_master]

First, the belt must be very tight between the two cam sprockets. My guess is someone monkeyed with it and didn't tighten the sprocket bolts to spec and the sprocket slipped. With the alignment bar in position, there should be very little, if any, deflection of the belt when you push on it. If it's not tight, you'll need to loosen the cam sprocket bolts and adjust the sprockets. The sprockets are NOT keyed to the cams. Loosen the bolts a couple of turns, then tap the back side of the sprockets with a rubber dead blow hammer until they break loose from the cams. Align the sprockets so the belt is tight between the sprockets and torque the bolts to spec. When you torque the bolts, remove the alignment bar and hold the cams with an open end wrench on the square spot on the camshaft. This prevents bending the bar.

As for loosening the crank bolt... If the cogs on the timing belt are still good where they mesh with the crankshaft pulley, bind the belt using a hose clamp as close as possible to the crankshaft sprocket. Put the clamp around the entire belt where it enters and exits the crank sprocket. The cam bar will keep it from turning when you break the bolt loose. If the crank pulley turns on the crankshaft, but not the sprocket, the woodruff key is damaged or missing.

[Ninety7PrixGT]

So pulley off finally. Used a oil filter wrench that my dad uses for his Ram diesel, that has the nylon strap and square bar attached. Tightened it as much as I could around the pulley and had the ratchet handle on the left side so that it would hit the a-frame up to the wheel or whatever it is so that when I loosened the bolt it would turn the pulley the opposite way tightening the strap even more. Hit it with impact gun at 135psi, and without even missing a beat that damn bolt came right out like it was finger tight. Its apart, half way there.

So the problem by the looks, is that pulley on the left (if you're looking straight on) was totally blown apart. All the bearings were sitting in the bottom and the pulley just fell off when I took the bottom cover off. Also, the pulley was worn away to the point where it looks like half a circle. Imbedded/cooked into the pulley is some metal ring that I think goes on the ends of it?? That I don't know. So I'm just waiting on the timing kit and belt to put it all back together here shortly.