Can you import a leon cupra r into the US?

[Stefanel1]

Peugeots are not exactly cars made for Americans, as American cars are not made for Europeans. Though, in each continent, you can find some people who will buy these cars. In Paris, I see sometimes some Suburban or enormous Americans SUV because it's a way to be different but it's awfull to drive with that in Paris (or in Roma, Berlin, London, Prague, etc.).
And considering the 16cm of the 300M, yes it makes a difference when you have to park ! For example, my previous Delta was 38cm smaller than my current car and many parking places are forbiden to me when I go to Paris three or 4 times a week ! Plus, the 607 is not so tiny and the 7 Séries is an other category. Compare the 300 with the 5 Séries.

But indeed, it'll be difficult for peugeot and Alfa to re enter the American Market... but if they do well and invest enough, they can !

[Hudson]

Originally posted by Stefanel1
Peugeots are not exactly cars made for Americans...

This is your best argument AGAINST Peugeot returning to the US. BMWs are the same on both sides of the pond and sell well. Same with Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, Jaguar, and Ferrari, among others. Even tiny Morgan sells well in the US and nobody can say they were "made for Americans." Since there are over a quarter of a billion Americans, there are many types of "Americans." Having said that, Peugeot couldn't find 10,000 buyers a year for their cars in the US before they left. Same with Alfa Romeo.

These are two "mainstream" brands, unlike Porsche or Ferrari, and need volume in order to survive. Neither Alfa Romeo or Peugeot can compete head-to-head with BMW or Mercedes-Benz (or Lexus, for that matter), which means they need lower prices than that. If they want to survive, they need to compete with Acura or high-end Nissan (Maxima/Altima) and Toyota (Camry/Avalon) models. Which will require extremely high quality levels (especially if they need to overcome their heritage), excellent pricing (156/407 around $25-30k, 166/607 in the high $30k range, SUVs in the high$30k range), and even better service. Just selling on the Peugeot (or Alfa Romeo) name is not going to work.

[zackiedawg]

Wow, this thread has been somewhat interesting and somewhat frustrating. After reading through it all, I felt the need to join.

As an American (and a Brit dual citizen by birth), I have always bought and owned odd cars, as has my family. I may be one of the few Americans to have had both a Peugeot AND an Alfa Romeo in the family (Dad still has his beloved 504, and I loved my GTV6 despite the problems keeping it running). I currently own the almost unknown W8, and in a wagon form, no less.

First of all, without question the reason both Peugeot AND Alfa Romeo departed the US market was due to miserable quality control and repair records. They were repeatedly at the very bottom of every survey in the US, and even press vehicles were known to break down, leak oil, and have interior trim bits fall off during test drives. Both makes have certainly come a long way, with Peugeot really tightened up and looking very strong in the European market with fresh designs and low prices, while Alfa has come back with much nicer and richer interiors, materials, and especially design.

As far as coming back to the US, they will have some hurdles to cross. The previous reputation will haunt them, and they will both have to prove worthy of a return to market here. The best way to do that is price. Some have noted VW's sales here. Well in 1991-1994, VW and Audi were within a thread of their life here, and were considering pulling off the market...joining Renault, Alfa, and Peugeot. It seemed there was no longer a market for any European vehicles other than MB and BMW. Porsche was able to stay alive because of their immensely low volume and enthusiast following. VW's comeback trail was based on a complete design makeover for every model, liberal parts-bin sharing with Audi, incredible material and build quality especially in the interiors, and strong pricing which put their models in the same price brackets as Japanese competition. By touting their European design and quality at a Japanese price, they were able to bring themselves out of the fire. But VW also sacrificed thousands of dollars of profit per vehicle...the net/retail margins on an A4 Jetta or B5 Passat were under $2,000, often yielding less than $1,000 profit per vehicle...versus a Toyota Camry or Nissan Altima with net/retail margins of nearly $3,400. VW knew they had to make sacrifices to develop their reputation anew. In the past few years, prices of VW vehicles have crept up every year.

Peugeot would have to be willing to price themselves at or below similar size and powered Japanese competition to rebuild their reputation. Despite any inherent goodness to their vehicles, Peugeot is not a mid-luxury manufacturer in the minds of Americans. In the 1980s and 90s, Americans were not willing to buy near-$40,000 505STI's. They think of Peugeot as a European economy car maker. This is not all bad - VW is thought of the same way. But it does mean they will have trouble breaking out of that mold...VW has inched their cars up to the $30,000 range at the turn of the millenium; then they tried the W8 to push themselves into the $35-$37K market with Acura and BMW...this has been a very hard market for VW to break into, and they are having trouble moving even 5,000 W8s despite it being an excellent vehicle (and despite the other 8-cylinder AWD competition being above the $50K mark). If Peugeot comes back to the US market as a cheap Euro alternative to Corollas, Civics, and Golfs, they could develop a following after a few years - but will never be a volume player like they are in Europe.

As far as Alfa is concerned, they have the advantage of a sporty moniker that many Americans remember. And those that do not remember may still be drawn to the Italian name, since the only Italian cars Americans get to see on the roads around here are Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Maserati. They can pass their cars off for more money than Peugeot, because their name and their origins have clout in the States already. Even when their quality was seriously lagging, the cars they were marketing here were sporty, so that is the last image Americans may have in their minds. The other advantage is their current designs. Right now, Alfa is one of the leaders in design, with Audi/VW and the revived Mercedes Benz. Because of the sportiness and stance of their vehicles, and the comparison to other great Italian sports cars, Alfa will have a much easier time moving their vehicles at higher prices.

The 147 could easily be marketed in the low to mid-$20K region, as a GTI alternative, and the GTA version could sell for $32K or more...as a stylish competitor to the VW R32, Subaru WRX STI, and Evo VIII. The 156GTA would certainly be accepted as a BMW 3-series or Lexus IS competitor, which means they could market the vehicle in the mid-to-upper $30s, or even $40K, and probably still succeed. Their key will not necessarily be the prices; Americans will accept them in higher price ranges; it will be initial quality. If a batch of cars comes over with a problem or a recall, or they have more than a few breakdowns...if a magazine testing one has a problem with it, that may well be the death knell for the marque's return no matter how good or stylish they are. They will be held up to a much higher scrutiny than existing marques, precisely BECAUSE they left the market previously based on quality problems.

I for one look forward to the return of both marques...and I wish we could see Citroen, Skoda, Seat, Lancia, and more come back to our roads.

as far as the initial question for this thread...could a Leon Cupra R be imported here? Yes, but not likely by a US citizen. A European who moves to the states could have his car certified for use in America with conversions to the headlights, addition of sidemarker color regulations, and after passing emissions testing. Crashing a model is not necessary for individual import...only for sale of a new model on our shores. Bumper regulations are one of the primary reasons cars are turned down for import...US requires a 5-MPH barrier resistance, whereas Europe requires only 2.5MPH. Despite European cars in general being much safer than American or Japanese vehicles, it is usually the small issues which create too large a barrier to be worth it for an importer - the bumpers, headlights, taillights, and sidemarkers usually have to be altered or changed, and CHMSLs have to be added if not already existing.

I have seen a Leon Cupra here in Florida. I have also seen an Audi S3, and a Peugeot 207, as well as several RHD Skylines. Importing these cars is possible. However, I don't think a US citizen would be allowed to simply order a non-imported European car and have it imported here after conversions. The S3 is owned by a Swiss student at Univ of Miami. The Peugeot is owned by a Scandinavian employee of Royal Caribbean International in Miami. The Skylines were converted by a special importer I think out of New Jersey who only imports those vehicles, and charges an enormous premium for them.

I think Mexico is your best shot...they get many of the fun cars we don't get here, and in Texas and California you can often see Mexicans coming across the border to visit the states driving Ford Ka's, Seats, Mexican Beetles, VW Polos, and more.

Good luck...and if you figure out a way, let us know! I'd love to find a way to get an old Renault A110 over here!

[Hudson]

Originally posted by zackiedawg
...as far as the initial question for this thread...could a Leon Cupra R be imported here? Yes, but not likely by a US citizen. A European who moves to the states could have his car certified for use in America with conversions to the headlights, addition of sidemarker color regulations, and after passing emissions testing. Crashing a model is not necessary for individual import...only for sale of a new model on our shores. Bumper regulations are one of the primary reasons cars are turned down for import...US requires a 5-MPH barrier resistance, whereas Europe requires only 2.5MPH. Despite European cars in general being much safer than American or Japanese vehicles, it is usually the small issues which create too large a barrier to be worth it for an importer - the bumpers, headlights, taillights, and sidemarkers usually have to be altered or changed, and CHMSLs have to be added if not already existing.

You had me (mostly) until this point.

Firstly, American bumper regulations are 2.5mph, not 5.

Secondly, there would be no preference to someone migrating to the US as opposed to an existing US citizen. In BOTH cases, the same rules apply. In years past (more than 20 years ago), an individual could import a vehicle that was not built to US specs, but they were only allowed to import ONE vehicle in their lifetime. This allowed for new citizens and soldiers to bring in foreign cars. This rule was abolished in the 1980s. In the late 1990s (or around 2000), the certification rules were changed so that an individual could import a special car under "Show and Display" status. To meet this requirement, the car had to be designed as having some historical or technological significance...which the Cupra does not.

I can't vouch for the foreign cars you've seen in Florida, but importing an Audi S3, Peugeot 207, or Cupra isn't as simple as having it imported into Mexico and transferring ownership to an American. Besides the obvious customs and registration problems, try insuring it. Driving a car around the US is possible as long as the car is registered to a foreign address and use in the US is limited to a specific length of time (one year, I believe). Heck, I've even driven a pair of Subaru Impreza WRXs back in the mid 1990s...they had to be destroyed at the end of their year (cheaper than exporting them).

Nissan Skylines have beem converted by an importer in California, who is listed as the manufacturer and must follow the same certifications as an manufacturer. Similar rules have applied to the Ferrar 288GTOs and McLaren F1s that have trickled into the US.

[zackiedawg]

Originally posted by Hudson
Firstly, American bumper regulations are 2.5mph, not 5.

OK...I thought I remembered it being 5MPH...you may know better than me!

Secondly, there would be no preference to someone migrating to the US as opposed to an existing US citizen. In BOTH cases, the same rules apply...In the late 1990s (or around 2000), the certification rules were changed so that an individual could import a special car under "Show and Display" status. To meet this requirement, the car had to be designed as having some historical or technological significance...which the Cupra does not.

I can't vouch for the foreign cars you've seen in Florida, but importing an Audi S3, Peugeot 207, or Cupra isn't as simple as having it imported into Mexico and transferring ownership to an American. Besides the obvious customs and registration problems, try insuring it. Driving a car around the US is possible as long as the car is registered to a foreign address and use in the US is limited to a specific length of time (one year, I believe). Heck, I've even driven a pair of Subaru Impreza WRXs back in the mid 1990s...they had to be destroyed at the end of their year (cheaper than exporting them).

I based my statement only on personal observation, not fact. I know several foreigners that seem to have managed to get their cars into the United States, but I do not know any Americans including those who have lived or traveled abroad, who have been able to get European-market-exclusive vehicles into the US. The man with the S3 I know from his attendance at my Get Together which I host for VWs and Audis...he has shown up with the car at our event. Through a friend that works at Royal Caribbean's office in Miami, I have heard about and seen pictures of his Peugeot in Miami...I am not sure as to HOW they got them here or how much trouble it was, but I know they succeeded in getting them. No US citizens I've yet met have been able to (My family had a Saab 9000 Turbo grey-marketed in 1984, before its US debut, after seeing the car in Sweden...it wasn't very hard to do back then).

Nissan Skylines have beem converted by an importer in California, who is listed as the manufacturer and must follow the same certifications as an manufacturer. Similar rules have applied to the Ferrar 288GTOs and McLaren F1s that have trickled into the US.

Yes, as I noted, the Skylines down here were indeed converted by an importer...I thought I remembered New Jersey...but I may have mixed it up with the importer that used to convert the MB G-Wagens inthe early to mid 90s. California sounds believable. I know the two Skylines I have seen are owned by extremely rich kids who could get anything they want. One of them has a RHD Honda Prelude as well, which he runs around town in full Japan-spec (probably initially converted, then he converted it back after the car was here)...including all Japanese markings inside. I have also been seeing several RHD Minis (the original) around South Beach, Miami.

Anyway...thanks for the extra info...I definately agree that it is not easy to get a car into the states which is not certified for sale here in any circumstance...I just wanted to note that it is somehow possible based on the occasional Euro-exclusive or Japan-spec car I have seen around here (By the way, there is a yellow Lotus Elise running about in Palm Beach, RHD. I have no idea how he got that here either...but I have seen it several times!). You may want to check for import agents or angencies in Florida, because alot of people seem to have the hook-up for imported cars!

[Hudson]

By the way, the importer of the Mercedes-Benz Gelandewagen was Europa of New Mexico.

[Stefanel1]

Peugeot 207 ?.... it'll be sold in 2005 isn't it a 206 or a 307 ?

[zackiedawg]

Originally posted by Stefanel1
Peugeot 207 ?.... it'll be sold in 2005 isn't it a 206 or a 307 ?

OOps...typo! It is the 206...the little 2 door hatchback one.

[Stefanel1]

ok
Which model ? 2.0 S16/GTi ? RC 180 ? Hdi ? or a more classical (1.4, 1.6 ?)

[zackiedawg]

For that, I'll have to ask my buddy Mike. He works with the guy down in Miami, so he sees the car every day. The guy's name is Gustav...he was an engineer for the cruise ships for years, and is now a service technician for them at the headquarters in Miami. He moved to Miami about 1 1/2 years ago when he got the post, and apparently found a way to bring his Pug with him!

I'll ask Mike the next time I see him, and see if I can get any details about the Peugeot. I only remember from the picture that it was Silver, and reminded me of Marcus Gronholm's WRC car without all the paint and bodywork!

[Stefanel1]

ok, thanks !

[Euro19]

Its would be certainly great to import Seats to USA trough VW dealers. The bad thing is that they probably won´t, since Seat is a VW in the basics, they use the exact same engines from VW and Audi and some Audi A3 interiors on the Leon and Cupra, the only thing that changes is the design, very disctintive, elegant and sporty all in one, I dont have a problem since they share so much with VW, group where they belong, that gives them more reliability, is just I don´t thinkg VW America would like to bring those.

[Jimster]

Originally posted by Euro19
Its would be certainly great to import Seats to USA trough VW dealers. The bad thing is that they probably won´t, since Seat is a VW in the basics, they use the exact same engines from VW and Audi and some Audi A3 interiors on the Leon and Cupra, the only thing that changes is the design, very disctintive, elegant and sporty all in one, I dont have a problem since they share so much with VW, group where they belong, that gives them more reliability, is just I don´t thinkg VW America would like to bring those.

Off Topic indeed- but care to explain what heppened to your 156???

[Stefanel1]

I wanted to ask you the sema question : did you replace the 156 by the Primera ??!!!!

[Euro19]

yeah indeed. 3 months ago I had a little accident with the Alfa well not so little, after the insurance payed for repairing I had to sell it, I think a car is never the same after a crash like this, and also bad luck and come on I wasn´t gonna buy the same car model, I finally decided to try the beautifull Primera 4dr investing a bit more, is so comfortable, great interior, and well the Lanos is my ¨project¨ car, I´ll post some pics later
thanx