is car oil, fuel system cleaner, and octane booster ok?

[NaKeDZX]

I'll say it again for anyone that IS listening and wants to treat their bike right. DO NOT use any motor oil with "Energy Conserving" written in the API label on the back. I think you'll find that covers 95-98% of auto oil.
I don't spend more than $5 for a quart of synthetic, less for dyno oil. I'm done with this one.

[tran_nsx]

Originally Posted by NaKeDZX

I'll say it again for anyone that IS listening and wants to treat their bike right. DO NOT use any motor oil with "Energy Conserving" written in the API label on the back. I think you'll find that covers 95-98% of auto oil.
I don't spend more than $5 for a quart of synthetic, less for dyno oil. I'm done with this one.

u have some information or proof to back this up???

[tran_nsx]

here's mine, read the bottom line (which is in bold) if ur one of the lazy ones and want the final analysis:

Motorcycle Consumer News
February, 1994
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Motorcycle Oils vs. Automotive Oils

Surprising New Evidence on the Viscosity-Retention Question
Walk into any motorcycle dealership parts department and you are virtually guaranteed to see prominent displays of oils produced specifically for use in motorcycle engines. Since dealers are not about to waste valuable floor or counter space on a product unless it produces a decent profit, it is obvious that motorcycle-specific oils have become one of the premier parts department cash cows of the 1990s.
Of course advances in lubrication technology have resulted in some fairly expensive premium, synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automobiles also. But as you can see from our pricing research at a half-dozen auto parts and cycle parts stores, the average purchase price for the motorcycle-specific lubricants runs about 120 percent higher for petroleum products and 185 percent higher for synthetic products than do their automotive counterparts. (See Figure 1)

The companies marketing these high-priced motorcycle lubricants would have us believe that their products are so superior to the automotive oils as to justify paying two and three times the price. But are we really getting the added protection promised when we purchase these products? MCN decided to look beyond the advertising-hype, specifically to see if the claims of prolonged and superior viscosity retention could be verified. What we found may very well change your mind about what should go into your motorcycle's crankcase in the future.


So The Story Goes ...
Many motorcyclists have long doubted the need to pay the inflated prices asked for most motorcycle-specific engine oils. An even larger number of us have harbored at least some degree of skepticism about the claims made for motorcycle oils, but have been reluctant to turn away from them, for fear of damaging our precious machines if the claims should happen to be true. Most of this fear comes from very successful marketing campaigns mounted by the manufacturers and distributors of motorcycle-specific lubricants.

For example, a monthly trade publication for motorcycle dealers recently published an article suggesting, "negative selling techniques" to "educate customers" against purchasing automotive oil for their bikes. The example in the article begins with the benevolent dealer looking the poor, dumb customer in the eye and asking, in an incredulous voice, "You're not really using that in your motorcycle, are you?"

The idea, of course, is not so much to educate as to frighten the customer into paying for the more expensive motorcycle oil that only guess-who sells. Such techniques have played on our fears with great effect, to the point where high-priced, motorcycle-specific lubricants have become staple profit producing items in the majority of motorcycle dealership parts departments throughout the country.

The campaigns promoting motorcycle-specific oils have successfully indoctrinated an entire Generation of motorcycle riders and mechanics. The doctrine is now so ingrained in the industry that questioning its veracity instantly marks you as an ill-educated outsider. Even MCN has fallen victim to the hype, espousing the superiority of such products in these very pages. Our own technical experts from the American Motorcycle Institute have repeatedly advised our readers against the dangers of straying from the straight and narrow path.

What we, as well as the AMI, your local mechanic and all the other motorcycling publications have been doing is simply repeating what we have been carefully taught to believe over the years. The only problem with this approach is that our only source of information has been the people who stand to profit from our faith in the superiority of motorcycle-specific oils.


Stretching the Truth - Just a Bit
Motorcycle oil producers make a multitude of claims for their products, some of which are extremely difficult to substantiate, and others which are simply outdated and no longer applicable. This is not to say that all claims made for the superiority of motorcycle oils are necessarily false, only that the actual differences between them and their automotive counterparts may be considerably less than we have been lead to believe. For example:

Claim - Since the introduction of catalytic converters in utomobiles, the best anti-wear agents have been limited by law to the amount that an be used in automotive oils, but are present in greater concentration in motorcycle oils.

Fact - Phosphorous deteriorates the catalyst in converters and is therefore restricted to a very small percentage in automotive oils. Phosphorous is also an essential element in one of the best anti-wear agents, ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate), which is a primary component of such over-the-counter engine additives as STP Engine Treatment.

While it is true that slightly increased concentrations of ZDDP are found in some motorcycle oils (such as Spectro products), it is also true that these concentrations still fall under the governmental limits, otherwise these oils could not be used in the new converter-equipped motorcycles from BMW and Yamaha. Also, it should be noted that ZDDP is a "last line of defense"-type additive, generally only coming into play under extremely severe conditions where actual metal-to-metal contact occurs within an engine, something that should never happen under normal operating conditions.

Claim - Motorcycle engines run hotter and rev higher than automobile engines, therefore requiring oils with more expensive, shear-stable polymers and additives than automotive oils.

Fact - This is one of those statements that was much more true in the 1970s than in the 1990s. The big, slow-revving Detroit automobile engines of the past have mostly been replaced with smaller, higher-revving four-cylinder and six-cylinder engines that have much more in common with their counterparts running on two wheels. Keeping pace with the development of the small, high-revving, automobile engine, automotive oils have improved considerably, to the point where the newer, SG-rated automotive oils are nearly identical to motorcycle oils.

In most cases where motorcycle oil producers show comparisons between their products and automotive oils, you will find them using SE- or SF-rated oils as the "automotive standard." These are oils that were designed and rated for the cars of 10 to 20 years ago. We have yet to see a motorcycle oil compared in testing to the 1990's standard, SG-rated premium automotive oils.


The Viscosity-Retention Claim
By far the loudest and most-believed claim made for motorcycle oils is that they retain their viscosity longer than automotive oils when used in a motorcycle. The standard claim made in most advertising is that motorcycle-specific oils contain large amounts of expensive, shear-stable polymers that better resist the punishment put on the oil by the motorcycle's transmission, thus retaining their viscosity longer and better than automotive oils would under the same conditions.

This quote comes directly from the back of a bottle of Spectro 4 motorcycle oil, and is similar to the advertising line used by nearly all motorcycle oils: Because of its special polymers, Spectro 4 maintains its viscosity, whereas the shearing action of motorcycle gears quickly reduces the viscosity of automotive oils.

We've all heard it a thousand times before. Our transmissions are the culprits that force us to buy special, $6-a-quart motorcycle oil instead of the 99 cent special at Pep Boys. We hate to have to do it, but we all know that it's true--or is it?

The question begged an answer, so MCN went looking for evidence that motorcycle oils really are more shear-stable than their automotive counterparts.


Help From the Scientific Quarter
About the same time we began looking into the oil viscosity retention question, we received a letter from John Woolum, a professor of physics at California State University - and a motorcyclist - who noted that he was investigating in the same area on his own. Not being ones to look a gift horse in the mouth, we contacted Dr. Woolum and encouraged him to expand his research on our behalf.

Later in this article Dr. Woolum explains the laboratory procedures he used to generate the statistics used in this article. but for the mean-time let's just take a look at the bottom line when five popular oils (three automotive and two motorcycle) were compared for relative viscosity retention after use in the same motorcycle. (See Figure 2)

As can be seen from the figures, the best-performing oil of the group tested was Mobil 1 automotive oil, a fully synthetic product. In today's market, virtually all oils sold are to some extent para-synthetic, since even standard petroleum products usually contain at least some synthetic-derived additives. However, for the sake of simplicity in this article we have listed the products as petroleum if the primary components are from basic petroleum stock. Those listed as synthetics have their primary components derived from basic synthetic stocks, and may or may not contain any additives derived from petroleum products.


Preliminary Conclusions
The results of these tests seem to support some of the long-standing theories about oils while casting serious doubt on others. Going by these tests it would seem logical to assume that:


The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application.

Comparing these figures to viscosity retention for the same oils when used in an automobile (see later text by Prof. Woolum) would indicate that motorcycles are indeed harder on oils than cars.

The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use.
All of these results (1-3) agree with everything the oil companies have been telling us all along. However, the same test data also indicates that:

The viscosities of petroleum-based oils, whether designed for auto or motorcycle application, drop at approximately the same rate when used in a motorcycle.

There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific oils out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.
These last two results (4-5) definitely do not agree with what the motorcycle oil producers have been telling us. In fact the test results not only indicate the two motorcycle oils being outperformed in viscosity retention by the two automotive synthetic products. but even by the relatively inexpensive Castrol GTX, which is a petroleum product. This directly contradicts the advertising claims made by the motorcycle oil producers.


The Oil Companies Reply
At Spectro Oils we talked to three different company spokesmen, all of whom were helpful and provided us with a great deal of information about their products. Unfortunately, despite our repeated requests for the testing data on which their advertising claims were based, the 15 pages of "Lubrication Data" they supplied us contained nothing that could not be found in their regular advertising and marketing packages. No verifiable testing data has been forthcoming.

The Spectro spokesmen were not pleased when informed of our test results, but when pressed, none could come up with a valid reason why their product should have scored the lowest, either. The only comment we got was, "We only wish you had tested our Golden Spectro synthetic instead of the petroleum-based Spectro 4."

Undoubtedly the Golden Spectro would have outscored the regular Spectro in our tests, though how well in comparison to the Mobil 1 and Castrol products we can only guess at this point.

When asked why the Spectro 4 petroleum product sold for $5.00 a quart when comparable automotive oils could be found at less than $1.50 a quart, a Spectro spokesman insisted theirs was "a superior, premium petroleum product, with expensive, shear-stable additives that should outperform automotive oils." That being the case, it should have been the perfect product for our testing.

We made a half-dozen calls to several different divisions within American Honda, but could find no one willing to make any statement regarding their HP4 motorcycle oil. All of the Honda employees we reached were friendly, and tried to help as much as they could, but you must keep in mind that Honda is a huge conglomerate and sometimes the person with the right answers to a question is difficult to track down through the corporate maze. Their Accessories Product Management Division noted that they had a lubrication expert that might be able to help us, but also that he was out of the country on vacation for the next month and could not be reached before this article went to press. Should someone from Honda wish to comment at a later date, we will certainly make room in a later issue.

Spokesmen at both Mobil and Castrol were a bit surprised at our questions, since neither makes any claims for their products in a motorcycling context. However, when we explained the test results, neither company spokesman seemed the least bit surprised, both noting that automotive oils in general had made a quantum leap in viscosity retention technology in the past five or six years. Both companies claimed to be using the very latest in shear-stable polymers for viscosity retention, and while claiming no knowledge of the motorcycle-specific oils' formula, expressed serious doubt that they could contain some type of additive that was superior in this context to that already being used in their automotive oils. Our test results support their assertion.


THE TEST
As we noted earlier, the viscosity-retention figures reported in the table were the result of a series of tests conducted by Dr. John C. Woolum, Professor of Physics at California State University. Since the validity of these tests is likely to be called into question by motorcycle oil marketers, following are Dr. Woolum's lab notes and explanations of the procedures he followed.



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Relative Viscosity Retention Comparisons Among Five Brands of Automotive and Motorcycle Oils
by John C. Woolum/ Ph.D.
Professor of Physics
California State University, Los Angeles
The central dogma of motorcycle oil manufacturers and distributors has always been that motorcycles put different demands on their lubricants than do automobiles. In particular, they point to the facts that motorcycles run at higher temperatures and use the same oil in their transmissions as in their engines. The transmission gears supposedly put extreme pressures on the oil molecules, thus causing the long oil polymers to break down. High temperatures can have the same basic effect, as well as additional effects such as the increase in oxidation products.

When the size of the oil polymers decreases ("cut up by the transmission gears," as at least one manufacturer claims), the oil thins. In other words, its viscosity decreases, as well as its ability to lubricate properly. For example, what started out as a 40-weight oil could effectively become a 30-weight oil, or even a 20-weight, after prolonged use. What this means, effectively, is that if the claims of the motorcycle oil producers are valid, they can easily be verified through measurement of viscosity changes on various oils as they are used in different applications.

Measuring the viscosity drop in oils did not seem like too difficult a task, especially since measuring viscosity of solutions of large molecules is a common practice in many biophysics laboratories - mine included. My lab had all the correct equipment - in fact the viscometers that I normally used for solutions of DNA and proteins were originally designed for oil measurements.


Setting the Stage
Viscosity is a measure of the friction between two layers of a liquid sliding relative to one another. It is usually measured in poise, or grams per centimeter per second (g/cm. sec). The basic principle of many viscometers is to measure the time required for a known amount of a liquid to pass through a capillary tube under gravitational force. The time taken will depend on the viscosity and the density of the liquid. The more viscous or less dense the liquid. the longer the time it will take to flow through the capillary.

Therefore in reality, this kind of viscometer does not measure viscosity directly, but rather the ratio of the viscosity to the density of the liquid being tested. This ratio is called the kinematic viscosity. and the common unit for expressing it is in stokes or poise cm^3/gram.

The viscometer used for my measurements was an Ostwald-type, Cannon-Fenske 200, designed to measure kinematic viscosities in the range of 10 to 100 centistokes (a centistoke is one-hundredth of a stoke). The oils being measured had kinematic viscosities between about 10 and 25 centistokes.

For the test samples, I decided to use two types of oils designed specifically for motorcycles and three types of fairly standard automotive oil.

The automotive oils were Castrol GTX 10W40 (petroleum based, $1.24/qt.), Castrol Syntec 10W40 (synthetic, $3.99/qt.) and Mobil 1 15W50 (synthetic, $3.48/qt.). The motorcycle oils were Spectro 4 10W40 (petroleum based, $4.99/qt.) and Honda HP4 10W40 (petroleum/synthetic blend, $5.99/qt.).

Each of these oils was run in the same motorcycles 1984 Honda V65 Sabre-under as near to identical conditions as possible. The oils were sampled for testing at 0, 800 and 1500 miles each.

As temperature has a strong effect on viscosity, I had to make certain it was carefully controlled for the experiments. Using a laboratory temperature control chamber, all measurements were made at 99 degrees Celsius (error factor of plus or minus 0.5 degrees), which is about 210 degrees Fahrenheit. This is the most common temperature used for oil viscosity measurements. It usually took about 15 minutes for each sample to achieve equilibrium within the chamber.

Each oil's kinematic viscosity was compared with its own kinematic viscosity at 0 miles to establish the viscosity ratio. In addition, measurements were made of each oil's density at each state of the tests. The densities were found to change by less than one percent, which is about the limit of the accuracy of the measurements. Therefore, a ratio of the times taken for the oils to pass through the viscometer effectively gives the ratio of their actual viscosities, since the densities cancel out.

What this all means in layman's terms then, is that the ratio established for each oil at the end of each test is a percentage of the amount of original viscosity retained at that point. For example. the Castro] GTX sample at 800 miles showed a relative viscosity of 0.722, meaning it had retained 72.2 percent of its original viscosity. Or, if you want to look at it the other way, the Castrol had lost 27.8 percent of its viscosity after 800 miles of use in the motorcycle.

Just for comparison sake, I also tested the viscosity drop of the Castrol GTX automotive oil after use in a 1987 Honda Accord automobile. At 3600 miles of use, the Castrol GTX showed a relative viscosity of 91.8 percent.

As the Mobil 1 had retained so much of its viscosity after the 1500 mile test, it was the only oil I allowed to run longer in the motorcycle. After 2500 miles, the Mobil 1 recorded a relative viscosity of 79.1 percent.

Also, it is worthy of note that from a testing standpoint, the two most similar oils were the Castrol GTX automotive oil and the Spectro 4 motorcycle oil. By similar, I mean that they tested as having almost the same absolute kinematic viscosity and density right out of the container. So starting out as equals, the Castrol maintained its viscosity several percentage points higher than the Spectro, under the same use in the same motorcycle yet the Spectro costs about four times the price of the Castrol.


The Error Factor
As a scientist, I must always ask myself. Are there possible errors in these measurements that would make them invalid? One possibility here would be that there was more particulate matter (contaminants) in some oil samples than in others, which would increase the viscosity numbers of that oil. Particulates disrupt the streamline flow and so increase the viscosity. (Einstein was the first to derive the quantitive expression for the increase in viscosity due to spherically, shaped particles.)

Large particulates should have been removed by the oil filter, and a new filter was used for each test. Still, to determine the effect of smaller particulates the oil samples were centrifuged at 11,000 g (11,000 times the acceleration of gravity) for a period of 10 minutes. A considerable amount of particulate matter was found and removed in all of the 800 mile and 1500 mile samples. However, the change in viscosity made by eliminating these particulates was found to be negligible.

Another possible source of error would be that the conditions to which the oils were subjected were different. In all cases, the distances were comprised of approximately 70 percent city riding and 30 percent freeway riding. The range of temperatures and the average ambient temperature during which the motorcycle was ridden were approximately the same. If anything, the average ambient temperature was higher during the operation of the motorcycle with the Mobil 1 oil, which should have put it at a disadvantage, yet it scored the highest overall in the viscosity retention tests.

Of course the motorcycle did age somewhat during the testing period, which took place over a year-long span. It registered about 4000 miles at the beginning of these tests and about 14,000 at the end. The order in which the oils were tested was:
1) Castrol, 2) Spectro, 3) Mobil and 4) Honda.


Other Criteria
The motorcycle oil producers have suggested that other criteria. such as the amount of wear metals and contaminants, might be unacceptable when using automotive oil in a motorcycle. To test this theory, I sent a sample of the Castrol GTX at 1500 miles to SpectroTech. Inc., for a complete oil analysis. Their findings were that all contaminants (water, dirt, coolant and sludge) were normal.

SpectroTech also reported that all wear elements (antimony, titanium, silver, copper, lead, tin, aluminum, nickel, chromium, cadmium, sodium and boron) were normal except for iron, which was reported as "mildly above normal" at 51 parts per million.

SpectroTech lists acceptable levels for all of the above listed metals except iron, for which they state, "values vary greatly with systems and parts." so it is not clear what exactly is meant by "mildly above normal." Perhaps it was in comparison to cars with 1500 miles on the oil. Also, this could have been due to cam wear, since the early Honda V-4s were known for excessive cam and rocker arm wear.

In any case, again I could find nothing to support the argument that automotive oils were somehow less effective than motorcycle-specific lubricants when used in a motorcycle.


Bottom Line
It could appear from this data, then, that there is no validity to the constantly-used argument that motorcycle-specific oils provide superior lubrication to automotive oils when used in a motorcycle. If the viscosity drop is the only criterion, then there is certainly no reason to spend the extra money on oil specifically designed for motorcycles. There does, however, appear to be a legitimate argument for using synthetic and synthetic-blend oils over the petroleum based products.


MCN's Conclusions
In speaking to a number of people involved in the production, marketing and distribution of motorcycle-specific oils, we could not find anyone who could present a valid argument for discrediting the testing done by Dr. Woolum. In general, they all tried to turn the conversation another direction by bringing up other possible advantages to using their products, while ignoring the viscosity-retention question. Yet without exception it is their own advertising that consistently brings the subject up, touting the special shear-stable polymers as the primary reason motorcyclists should purchase their products.

It is this practice to which we take exception, as we have been unable to find evidence to support these claims. In short, it seems to be nothing more than a clever marketing ploy designed to enhance their products' image and separate motorcyclists from their money.

MCN is ready to print any research or test results provided by the oil companies to support their claims of superior viscosity retention, with this one proviso: The comparisons must be against actual, SG-rated oil products that can be purchased off the shelf at the average auto parts store. Tests against generic, basic-stock mineral oil or against the lower-rated SE and SF oils would lack any credibility in a real-world context.

Despite more than six months of research, reading all the claims and counter-claims printed by dozens of industry experts and lubrication experts, MCN cannot and does not purport to know all there is to know about the differences between automotive and motorcycle oils. However, what we do know is that we can find no substantive evidence that using a high-quality, name-brand automotive oil in an average street motorcycle is in any way harmful or less effective in providing proper lubrication and protection than using the more expensive, motorcycle-specific oils.

Figure I Petroleum Based, Multiple Viscosity, SG-Rated, Oils
Best Retail Prices Found
Motorcycle Oils

Name Price
Honda GN4
Kawasaki Premium
Maxum 4 Premium
Motul 3000
Spectro 4
Torco 4-Cycle
Torco MPZ 2.95
2.65
3.79
4.99
4.99
3.25
3.95
Average Price/qt. 3.80
Automotive Oils <
Name Price
Pennzoil
Havoline
Quaker State
Motorcraft
AC Delco
Castrol GTX
Valvoline 1.24
1.09
1.23
1.09
1.24
1.24
1.23
Average Price/qt. 1.19
Average Price Differential: 319.5%
Synthetic Based and Petroleum/Synthetic Blend
Multiple Viscosity, SG-Rated Oils
Best Retail Prices Found
Motorcycle Oils

Name Price
Honda HP4
Golden Spectro 4
Maxum 4
Maxum 4 Extra
Motul 3100
Torco T4-R 5.99
5.99
6.48
9.79
4.99
5.95
Average Price/qt. 6.53
Automotive Oils <
Name Price
Castrol Syntec
Mobil 1
Valvoline Hi-Perf.
Valvoline Racing
Pep Boys Synthetic 3.99
3.48
3.59
3.59
2.99
Average Price/qt. 3.53
Average Price Differential: 185.0%

Figure II Relative Viscosity Retention
(as a percentage of initial viscosity retained
after normal use in the same motorcycle)

0 miles 800mi 1500mi
Mobil 1
Castrol Syntec
Castrol GTX
Honda HP4
Spectro 4
100%
100%
100%
100%
100%
86.6%
78.1%
72.2%
69.2%
68.0% 83.0%
74.5%
68.0%
65.6%
63.9%


http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm

[tran_nsx]

heres the other one:

Which oil is best?

This article was written by Mike Guillory. I think it offers an excellent perspective and discussion on oil! It certainly has helped to shape my opinion on this complex subject.

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Brief Introduction

Along with keeping things adjusted properly, using a good quality motor oil and changing it regularly is the key ingredient to keeping your motorcycle running happily for a long time. You cannot go wrong using one of the various "motorcycle-specific" oils, now available also from some of the major oil companies. However, many motorcyclists object to the higher prices of those oils and for convenience prefer to buy oil at their local automotive supply store, which is a still a good option. This article will provide you with information to make an informed choice.

Price of Motor Oil

So how do you make an intelligent choice? Will $1.00 a quart automotive oil work okay or do you need to pay $4 to $12 a quart for "motorcycle" oil? You have to answer that question yourself, but here are a few facts to help you make the best decision for your situation.

The owner's manual of your motorcycle probably says something very similar to the following:


Use only high detergent, premium quality motor oil certified to meet API Service Classification SF or SG (shown on container). The use of additives is unnecessary and will only increase operating expenses. Do not use oils with graphite or molybdenum additives as they may adversely affect clutch operation." That's pretty clear. But what do you do since automotive oils now say on the container "meets SL Service?" That's easy! By consensus of the API and the manufacturers, the current SL classification meet all requirements of SF, SG, SH, and SJ plus all earlier API gasoline categories. The current SL actually offers some additional benefits over the older classifications. So, if the motorcycle requirement says "SG", be confident that "SL" indeed meets that requirement.
The Vanishing Zinc and Phosphorous

It is a fact than many SL oils now contain lower levels of ZDDP (the zinc/phosphorous extreme pressure additive) and that is a big concern to a lot of motorcyclists. ZDDP is a last resort protection against metal-to-metal contact. Whereas a few years ago the zinc level was typically 0.12% to 0.15% in SG automobile oils, some SL oils now have as little as 0.05%. However, this in itself may not be a problem since normal operation of a motorcycle on the street would never result in metal-to-metal contact any more than it would in your automobile. Remember these SL oils meet the most demanding protection requirements of modern, high-reving, powerful 4-stroke automobile engines (among others). And there is no reason to believe the lubrication requirements of street motorcycles is measurably different.

However, if you race you probably need higher levels of ZDDP and should use appropriate oils or ZDDP additives.

NEW Motorcycle Oils

Seeing an opportunity to bridge this perceived gap between motorcycle oils and automotive oils, many traditional oil marketers like Castrol, Mobil, Pennzoil, Quaker State, and Valvoline now sell their own "motorcycle" oils at very competitive prices, and alongside their automotive oils. I have found them at several of my local autoparts stores and even at one WalMart store. Call or visit the auto supply stores in your area and ask. Even if they don't routinely stock them, they probably can order a case for you at substantial savings because their mark-up is generally quite a bit less than motorcycle shops.

Although not a motorcycle oil, oils with the designation "Racing Oil" are not intended for street use, generally meets "SG" requirements and has somewhat higher levels of additives, like ZDDP. An example is Valvoline's VR1 Racing oil available in 20w50 weight. These should work fine in our motorcycles.

Energy-Conserving Oils

Some are concerned that the new "energy-conserving" motor oils may have "friction modifiers" which will cause clutch slippage. Since that is a legitimate concern it is best to use only oils which are NOT "energy-conserving for motorcycles with wet clutches." Read the back of the container. It clearly identifies this. In general, only the very lighter oils, like 10w30, 10w20, 5w20, are energy-conserving. All 5w40, 5w50, 10w40, 15w40, 15w50, and 20w50 oils which I have found are not energy-conserving and can be recommended for general motorcycle use.

It is commonly mis-stated that "SJ and SL oils have friction modifiers which will cause wet clutch slippage." In reality, all oils have friction modifiers, that's how they work. ZDDP itself is a friction modifier. The real issue is to avoid getting the friction so low, with very thin oils containing extra amounts of friction modifiers, that clutches will slip under normal use. Stay away from energy conserving oils and you should be fine, if your clutch is in good working order.

Synthetic or Conventional

What about synthetic vs. semi-synthetic vs. "dino" oils? All motor oils have several special additives formulated into the oil to protect from corrosion and wear, plus detergents to keep combustion products in the oil. For normal (non-extreme) use, "dino" oils protect as well as the synthetic oils. However, if you plan to race, run at extremely high temperatures, or plan to extend oil-change intervals, or simply want the best, then a synthetic or semi-synthetic may be your best choice.

Real World Test Results

Are there any "real world" examples of long motorcycle engine life using automotive oils? There is a good one in the June 1996 issue of Sport Rider magazine in a report called the "100,000 mile Honda CBR900RR." The owner used conventional Castrol GTX oil, 10W40 in the winter, 20W50 in the summer. He changed it every 4,000 miles, changing the filter every OTHER oil change. No valve clearance adjustments were required after the initial one at 16,000 miles. And a dyno test against the same model with only 6,722 miles showed torque and horsepower virtually identical. The 100,000 mile bike was even used for some racing. In a subsequent follow-up, the same CBR had passed 200,000 miles and was still going strong! Plus, many motorcyclists have emailed me with their very positive results using nothing but automotive oils for years in a variety of rides. Oils have changed over the past 10 years, but that just means we need to be more careful in our choices.

Frequency Asked Questions

What is a reasonable oil-change interval?

Most manuals recommend not to exceed 8,000 miles after break-in. But short-trip riding is considered severe service and the most common oil change interval is 3,000 to 4,000 miles. However, a long trip is the easiest service for the oil and going 6,000 to 8,000 miles between changes while on a cross-country ride is routine. Also, the use of synthetic oils can easily double the oil-change interval.


Will changing the oil even more frequently, like every 1,000 miles, prolong the life of the engine?

Not very likely, because even at 3,000 to 4,000 miles, the oil and additives are not degraded very much. Changing more often just wastes money.


What about the claims that motorcycle-specific oils contain "special polymers which are resistant to breakdown caused by motorcycle transmissions?

Oils usually require the addition of polymers, called VI improvers, to create a multi-viscosity oil, like 10W-40. Whether it is a motorcycle oil or an automotive oil, all polymers are subject to some degradation in the transmission. Full synthetic oils tend to have less polymer than conventional oils and therefore degrade less.


Why are motorcycle oils so much more expensive than automotive oils?

Cost of doing business is higher per quart of motorcycle oil. Large oil companies make so much more product that their profit margin per quart does not have to be so high. That's why the newer motorcycle oils being marketed by some oil companies are only marginally more expensive than their automotive counterparts.


What about the claims by specialty motorcycle oil manufacturers, that their oil is better?

That's a good one. Next time you hear that line, simply ask, "What evidence do you have?" I've never seen any. If you do get any, please let me know! I don't believe that there is any.
Now, armed with all this information, you are ready to make your choice between automotive oil and motorcycle oil. Either will work fine. Your motorcycle probably cannot tell any difference. There are many riders, the author included, who use nothing but good quality automotive motor oils. There also are many who use nothing but motorcycle oils. All indications are that both choices work equally well because motorcycle engines are designed so well that the oil really doesn't make any measurable difference. As long as it meets SG, SH, SJ, or SL service requirements.
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Addendum
In the past several years, various reports went around regarding independent studies that showed "automotive" oils that are not energy-conserving (EC) work just as well as motorcycle-specific oil and in many cases better. In former revisions to this article I listed the oils I found locally (Houston, Tx) that were 10w40 and heavier and not energy-conserving. I've discontinued that as it adds little value. All one needs to do is look at the back of the oil container where the lower half of the identification circle will have the words "energy conserving" if it is. Don't use those in wet clutch motorcycle applications, as they may cause clutch slippage. If the lower half of that circle is blank, as all 10w40 and heavier oils should, that means it is NOT energy conserving and should be fine in wet clutch applications.

Heavy-Duty Oils

My favorite oils and the ones I most mostly recommend for motorcycle use, are the "heavy-duty" oils. They are commonly misunderstood, and often referred to as "diesel oils." They are NOT energy conserving, have higher zinc levels, as high as 0.16%, and by virtue of their multi-duty have a better engine protection package than an oil that is only rated "SL". These heavy-duty oils are rated SJ or SL, plus CH-4. They are currently closer in formulation to the motorcycle specific oils and to the "SG" oils that many motorcycle makers recommend. Following are some examples of these oils, generally 15w40 oils by industry convention. There may be several other 15w40 oils that I am not familiar with.

Castrol RX Super 15w40
Chevron Delo 400 15w40
Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40
Pennzoil Long-Life 15w40
Quaker State 4X4 Synthetic Blend 15w40
Shell Rotella-T 15w40 (my personal favorite)
SuperTech 2000 (WalMart) 15w40
Valvoline All Fleet 15w40
Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and 4X4 15w40
Full Synthetics - for Maximum Protection
For years Mobil One 15w50 has been a favorite of motorcyclists. In recent years it has gone from its original formulation to an improved SJ "TriSynthetic", and more recently as SL "SuperSyn." several of us have received conflicting information on this new "flavor" of Mobil One, but the consensus appears to be that the new SuperSyn has additional friction modifiers and may no longer be a good choice for motorcycles. However, I have heard from several VFR owners still using it with favorable results. Therefore, YMMV. Mobil naturally recommends their motorcycle Mobil One.

A fairly new player in the synthetic market is Shell with Rotella-T Full Synthetic 5w40. It is not energy-conserving and according to Shell performs competitively with Mobil Delvac One full synthtetic, which means it offers even more protection than does Mobil One 15w50. A number of motorcyclists have reported to me good results so far with his use of the new Synthetic Rotella-T. I put it in my own VFR at my last oil change.

Delvac One should be an excellent motorcycle oil but is generally available only at truck stops or in commercial quantities. For those who may have connections with a long-haul trucking operation, where Delvac One is known to be used in oil change intervals up to 150,000 miles, or even more, you may want to try it if the price is right.

There are a number of other synthetic and semi-synthetic oils available and I have no reason to believe they are in any way inferior. Just follow the advice and use one which is not energy conserving.

Important Note: Be sure and use the recommended viscosity range, e.g. 10w40, 20w50, etc. for the climate in your area. In general, to protect your motor use the heaviest oil you can that still meets the manufacturer's guidelines. For example, 20w50 is better in warm weather than 10w40, because it gives you a thicker oil cushion between bearing surfaces at operating temperature. For racing, a thinner oil will offer less resistance and thus more power, but will offer less protection.


A Note on Warranties

Since it is generally accepted within the industry that current classifications also meet all older ones, there can legally be no warranty issue. In fact, some oils actually say on the package "SG" in addition to SH , SJ and SL. However, if any of the very newest motorcycles specify oil meeting the new JASO, or other motorcycle-specific oil specifications, and no reference to "SG" or similar automotive specs, then you may have a potential warranty issue so behave accordingly.

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http://www.sportbikechat.com/modules...rder=0&thold=0

[NaKeDZX]

"If the viscosity drop is the only criterion"..It's not.

"Some are concerned that the new "energy-conserving" motor oils may have "friction modifiers" which will cause clutch slippage. Since that is a legitimate concern it is best to use only oils which are NOT "energy-conserving for motorcycles with wet clutches"

"All one needs to do is look at the back of the oil container where the lower half of the identification circle will have the words "energy conserving" if it is. Don't use those in wet clutch motorcycle applications, as they may cause clutch slippage."

[kelwa1]

Old news,,,,,, every bit of it. Not one time, at any point, did the article(s) mention clutch wear based on types, brands, which additives, bla bla bla.

The only one I saw - " Addendum
In the past several years, various reports went around regarding independent studies that showed "automotive" oils that are not energy-conserving (EC) work just as well as motorcycle-specific oil and in many cases better. In former revisions to this article I listed the oils I found locally (Houston, Tx) that were 10w40 and heavier and not energy-conserving. I've discontinued that as it adds little value. All one needs to do is look at the back of the oil container where the lower half of the identification circle will have the words "energy conserving" if it is. Don't use those in wet clutch motorcycle applications, as they may cause clutch slippage. If the lower half of that circle is blank, as all 10w40 and heavier oils should, that means it is NOT energy conserving and should be fine in wet clutch applications."


All that testing, just to ignore the clutch. That's half the reason why oil in motorcycles break down so fast.


Nothing against you Tran_nsx, you did a great job finding that info.

[tran_nsx]

Originally Posted by NaKeDZX

"If the viscosity drop is the only criterion"..It's not.

"Some are concerned that the new "energy-conserving" motor oils may have "friction modifiers" which will cause clutch slippage. Since that is a legitimate concern it is best to use only oils which are NOT "energy-conserving for motorcycles with wet clutches"

"All one needs to do is look at the back of the oil container where the lower half of the identification circle will have the words "energy conserving" if it is. Don't use those in wet clutch motorcycle applications, as they may cause clutch slippage."

i know this already nakedzx, im reffering to to the part where u claim 95-98% of all oils are energy conserving. do u have proof of this? in other words, are u telling me u can't get oil because 95-98% of oils are only in "energy-conserving" oils? if u didn't noticed, they tested majority of the major brands so i want to know where u get this 95-98%.

[tran_nsx]

the first article was in 94 and the next article was in 96 (its not like they test and compare oil every year now, come on) which is kinda old, but thats not important. the important part is that there hasn't been any major changes to oils or motorcycles in the last decade to proove that u can't use those oils anymore. and of course, they still presently sell those brands at any local store. my point? although this article is a tad bit old, its still credible. if this was from the 70s, then this would be irrellevant.

kelwa1, look at it this way, the second article had a guy using automotive oil for 200,000+ miles, say again, 200,000+ miles!!!!!!!!! if there was something wrong with the clutch, he would have mention it by now. be lucky if anyone of us would even reach 100,000 miles on our bikes, and not only that, but he also races the mtorcycle on occasions. that right there is proof in itself.

again, all these testing show there is no major difference between automotive oil and motorcycle oil.

[kelwa1]

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

kelwa1, look at it this way, the second article had a guy using automotive oil for 200,000+ miles, say again, 200,000+ miles!!!!!!!!! if there was something wrong with the clutch, he would have mention it by now. be lucky if anyone of us would even reach 100,000 miles on our bikes, and not only that, but he also races the mtorcycle on occasions. that right there is proof in itself..

I gotcha. I've owned several M/C's over the years that I've racked up some major miles on, even a 84 Honda Nighthawk S that I owned since new, I had over 500,000 miles on it when I sold it. Dailey driver for a few years. Not hotrod miles, all highway. 45k was/is usually the max on any sportbike clutch, at least any I've seen or owned. I currently have around 33k on my ZRX, and its about time for a new clutch. I believe the guy has/had over 200k on his CBR, I do not believe his clutch has lasted 1/10 of those miles, especially with some racing thrown in there. I've seen Goldwing/big tourer clutches last a good while, but even 100k is pushing it. This is all irregardless of what oil you use, having been in the M/C parts and service biz for close to 20 years, I've seen it all.


Like I said earlier, It's too bad with all that oil testing, there isnt any clutch data to go with it, just engine and trans. Again, that's half the reason why oil in motorcycles break down so fast.

[NaKeDZX]

You should stop by an auto store and see how many oils you find that aren't energy conserving. I don't think you'll find many, if any. And that's really the only point I'm trying to get across, don't use EC oils.

[tran_nsx]

Originally Posted by NaKeDZX

You should stop by an auto store and see how many oils you find that aren't energy conserving. I don't think you'll find many, if any. And that's really the only point I'm trying to get across, don't use EC oils.

i did. today i stopped by walmart to check out if ur claim is true. it's not. looking at the back of most of the cartons, it was more like 30% energy conserving and 70% are not energy conserving. to get a better understanding of which one to use, reread the second article which tells u which one is reccomend for ur motorcycle, but to make it easier on u and everyone else since u didn't thorougly read it, i copied and pasted the section below. another way is to just look at the label or print on ur bike, it should say sae 10w-40, this is not an energy-conserving oil.


Energy-Conserving Oils

Some are concerned that the new "energy-conserving" motor oils may have "friction modifiers" which will cause clutch slippage. Since that is a legitimate concern it is best to use only oils which are NOT "energy-conserving for motorcycles with wet clutches." Read the back of the container. It clearly identifies this. In general, only the very lighter oils, like 10w30, 10w20, 5w20, are energy-conserving. All 5w40, 5w50, 10w40, 15w40, 15w50, and 20w50 oils which I have found are not energy-conserving and can be recommended for general motorcycle use.

[aussieidiot]

well done trans. good info. you must be passionate about oils to take the time to type all that info.

its hard for me to put into perspective your price/quarts. for me down here, the price of 4L of Mobil 1 auto oil (enough to do an oil change on most cars) is more expensive than the same 4L of Motul 3000. $51 for Mobil1 versus $38 for Motul.

my only research was me and a mate in our cars (94 swift gti and a 88 corolla with a 1.6l 20v conversion) and tested Mobil 1, Shell helix, Motul and Repsol. He ran Helix and i ran the others. his 20v should be faster than a gti but with Motul we ran even. Drop full synthetic Royal Purple in the gearbox and woo fuckin hoo my little gti gets past him. that shit cost me 200 bucks just to beat him.

so and i think naked will agree that if i can pay a little more to know that i've just got 4-6% extra power through better power transfer within the motor, i'll do it. why spend a grand on a Power Commander when all i need to do is use good oil.

it might be fine to run auto oil and be ok as well as run 5 million mile on the same oil and be super fine but i ride a fireblade (954) for the performance factor not economy. i have been swayed by the articles and haven't disregarded them completely but it hasn't stopped me from wanting to change every 3000 miles and pay my 40 buck AUS for good oil.

anything to kick a gixer1000's arse!!!!!

[mx6rrr]

Ok, Blayne-Im guessing tran_nsx used copy and paste (Im hoping!!!) Hows the 954 running?
Ok, heres my question...I bought Honda full synthetic (yah yah, it was before I read this...) but I havent changed the oil yet...should I use something different? From what I understand this oil is good...although thats what they make you think right?! Once you go full synthetic you have to always use full synthetic...right? Is it worth it? I have the 99 600 F4 with about 14000 mi on it now. Thanks guys.

[aussieidiot]

she's running fine. i'll probably get a new chain and rear sprocket soon and make her accelerate quicker again.

as for your oil question, its up to you. my position is that i ride a performance bike and i want to maintain its performance. so i'll be changing the oil and filter every 6 months which will be around every 2000miles and using the Motul 3000. i don't believe in buying Honda or Yamaha oils. i just buy what gives me piece of mind.

[tran_nsx]

Originally Posted by mx6rrr

Ok, Blayne-Im guessing tran_nsx used copy and paste (Im hoping!!!) Hows the 954 running?
Ok, heres my question...I bought Honda full synthetic (yah yah, it was before I read this...) but I havent changed the oil yet...should I use something different? From what I understand this oil is good...although thats what they make you think right?! Once you go full synthetic you have to always use full synthetic...right? Is it worth it? I have the 99 600 F4 with about 14000 mi on it now. Thanks guys.

yep, i copied and paste. from what i undestand with cars, if ur using full synthetic and want to switch, u have to do it gradually by mixing it with petroleum motor oil. so this should also apply with motorcycle too. of course if u want to stay with full synthetic, but a lot less expensive kind, u can always get auto synthetic oils which according to the test did better than its petroleum counterpart.