ASD + Fuel Relays chatter in run position zero rpm

[gromittoo]

I went to start my 2001 3.3L Voyager minivan today. All I heard was a lot of clanking under the hood. I put jumper cables from my other car, and van's battery seems fine (no sparks seen when attaching cables). The van has not been acting up in any way recently.

I noticed that by leaving the ignition key at the "run" position (not the crank position), and engine not running, I could hear a lot of chattering relays from the Power control center. I pulled off the cover, and the following relays were rapidly turning on and off:
- ASD (Automatic ShutDown)
- Fuel Pump
- A/C clutch

If I pulled all three relays out, I got almost silence. However I could hear another relay or solenoid clicking somewhere deep in the right fenderwell (maybe a Purge solenoid?).

I notice that when I crank the car, every few seconds it seems to turn over one revolution, then I hear the main Solenoid click a lot. The strange behavior of the fuel pump relay probably explains why no start (not enough fuel pump pressure).

I am at a loss as to what is wrong. I am guessing an open ground or short. Why did it work fine last night, and not today? NOTE: the only code recorded is P1684, loss of battery.

I have the FSM, but it is not helpful. The van will have to be towed to have it looked at with a DRB tool. I am scared that to take it to a dealer, who will probably want to throw in a new PCM, which I just can't afford.

[brcidd]

Relays are known to chatter when system voltage drops to 7 volts or less- so the only issue you have is a very low system voltage- as in a bum battery Jump start your car- go have battery tested for free at Autozone, or any other of your choice. So don't worry about any of the relays- worry only about your battery....

[gromittoo]

From my original post:

I put jumper cables from my other car, and van's battery seems fine (no sparks seen when attaching cables).

The van battery is at 100%. If the battery was at "7 volts or less", the radio would not work, but the radio works fine when in the "run" position. Something is causing a huge voltage drop in the circuit that supplies those relays.

Today, I tried again. This time, I turned to "run" and the relays did not chatter. I turned the key to "start", and nothing happened except the radio cut out (expected). Not even the starter solenoid click. No lights dim either.

A Bad starter might explain today's behavior, but I still can't figure out why those relays clicked yesterday.

[RIP]

Ditto to brcdd. "The van battery is at 100%". How did you prove that? The only way is to do a load test with a load tester - free at most parts stores. Whether or not a radio works is no indication of battery health. Quick check? Using a multimeter you should read a minimum of 12.4 volts DC at the battery terminals engine off. Battery connections clean and tight? Many times the crimp securing the cable end to the battery cable loosens up. Check the battery feed connection in the IPM. Make sure it's tight and clean. Reseating it and the battery connections wouldn't hurt.

Reseat? Back off the nut, wiggle the connection, tighten the nut.

[aleekat]

Originally Posted by RIP

Ditto to brcdd. "The van battery is at 100%". How did you prove that? The only way is to do a load test with a load tester - free at most parts stores. Quick check? Using a multimeter you should read a minimum of 12.4 volts DC at the battery terminals engine off. Battery connections clean and tight? Many times the crimp securing the cable end to the battery cable loosens up.

Also measure the voltage when you try and start it see what the reading is. See lots of batteries measure 12v static but when you try and start, drops below 9v.

[gromittoo]

Battery is not the problem. I have been driving for decades, and I know when my battery is weak or dead. With a weak battery, the dash lights would go out when I turn to the "start" position. That did not happen. Also, the headlights stay bright when left on for five minutes.

On Sunday, the relay chatter of the the three relays was occurring when in key in the "run" position, and all lights (headlight, dome, dash) in the car at full brightness, and they were not flickering. This loud relay chatter was definitely not normal for the key in the "run" position, engine not running, and a fully charged and good battery.

If I turned the key to "start" the starter would get strong, but short pulses of power, but not long enough to make the car turn over.

The three relays in question get their B+ voltage from the same circuit, which may have had a weak connection (loose fuse?). More likely, the PCM was just plain confused, and randomly grounding those relays.

Anyway, on Monday, the problem changed. Now only the ASD relay clicks at random intervals (1 time every 5-60 seconds). I have a charger on the battery, and the charger indicates full charge. Again, battery is good.

When trying to start, I hear absolutely nothing (but the start relay does click). I tried hitting the starter with a hammer, but it is hard to get to. I have bought a used starter on ebay, and hope that will fix it.

[brcidd]

Battery connections, ground wire to engine block, hot wire on starter should all be cleaned and checked. Body grounds- at battery and at engine block to frame grounds need checked and cleaned if needed. Headlights that don't dim on engine crank request, means starter is not enabled- so a good look at park/neutral switch and any aftermarket anti-theft devices is needed.

Did you try starting vehicle in neutral instead of park? Or did you try wiggling shifter while holding ignition in start position?

[gromittoo]

To all:

Yes the battery is at 100%. It is 60 month battery that is only 2 years old, no corrosion on battery terminals, and the cables are tight. Yes I tried starting in neutral. I have been driving old cars for 30 years... all that stuff was checked before I posted.

Also, I have had zero problems (or even hints of problems) with starting this van since I replaced the battery 2 years ago. My totally dead problem happened totally out of the blue on Sunday (not typical of a battery problem). The chattering relay problem may have gone away when I used my ODB reader to zero out the codes.

No need to use a load tester when you have 20 Amps of headlights. I left the the headlights on for 5 minutes, and they remain full brightness. They don't dim when I turn the key to start, indicating that the starter is not drawing juice.

OK---- enough ranting

The relay in the Power Distribution center does click when I turn the key. That the relay clicks does not necessarily mean that it is actually allowing current to the solenoid circuit. I tried to remove the relay to swap it with the rear window defogger relay, but I couldn't get it out.

It has been raining for several days, so I haven't been working on it. I ordered a used starter on ebay for $31 as a backup plan.

When it stops raining, I will jack up the van, and remove the starter. I will check that wire going to the solenoid gets power while someone else turns the key to start (verifying that the relay in the Power Distribution center is working, and all relevant connections). If that proves good, I will then bench test the starter. If the starter is bad, I have a replacement due to arrive on Saturday.

[aleekat]

Why not just put 12v directly to the starter? That will eliminate neutral safety switch, ignition switch. Seems alot easier than pulling the starter to bench test.

[gromittoo]

Originally Posted by aleekat

Why not just put 12v directly to the starter? That will eliminate neutral safety switch, ignition switch. Seems alot easier than pulling the starter to bench test.

You must not be familiar with the location of the starter in a 3.3liter 4th gen Chrysler minivan. It is wedged in tight between the engine, the engine mount, the radiator ran shroud. The easiest access (including the cables) is from the bottom, so I have to put the van on jack-stands no matter what I do. Once there, if I can get to the solenoid terminal easily (which i doubt), I'll take your suggestion.

It is easy to "bench test" a starter on the driveway using a pair of jumper cables, and a jumper wire from hot to the solenoid.

[gromittoo]

OK it stopped raining. I had a chance to study the Factory Shop Manual. I decided to try a technique to verify the starter, by bypassing the Starter Relay. This can be done from the Intelligent Power Canter, so no need to jack up the van.

To bypass the starter relay, you remove the relay. The Output of the relay is between pin 30 and 87. Pin 30 is "hot" all the time (which I verified). Pin 87 goes to the solenoid. To prevent the car from starting, the FSM recommends removing the ASD relay (Automatic ShutDown). This disables the fuel pump and spark.

I took a piece of wire, and stuck it into the cavities where pins 30 and 87 go. I got strong starter action, and engine turnover. So the starter and its wiring are 100%, and my problem has to do with the starter relay. I removed the "rear window defogger" relay (same part number), and inserted it into the starter relay socket. Tried turning the key... nothing.

So my problem is not the starter relay itself. With the starter relay removed, I tried turning the key. I heard a different relay click, so I am assuming that the starter relay is just not getting energized when I turn the key to start.

I am Puzzled as to what to do next. Given the total crazy relay chatter on Sunday, I am guessing the PCM is still really confused. The ASD relay still clicks at random intervals (not normal). Maybe disconnect the negative battery cable for an hour to reset the PCM?

[brcidd]

Check the yellow starter wire that comes out of ignition switch- is it hot in Start mode? If not, most likely a bad ignition switch...

[gromittoo]

Originally Posted by brcidd

Check the yellow starter wire that comes out of ignition switch- is it hot in Start mode? If not, most likely a bad ignition switch...

I will check the yellow wire tomorrow. I still expected the van to start while the key was in the "run" position, and I was bypassing the starter relay.

My gut feeling is that it is not the ignition switch. I would expect a bad ignition switch "start" position would have given me trouble before, and wiggling the key would fix it. This happened without warning, and wiggling the key does not help.

Still it is possible. My wife loves to load up her keychain so it weighs like five pounds. This has damaged the key lock on both our Chrysler vehicles. It allows me to remove the key in any position on either car.

[gromittoo]

Looking at the FSM on page 8W-10-35, I can see that the yellow wire is connected directly to one side of the coil of the relay (pin 86). The other side of the coil (pin 85) goes into the BCM, where I assume it gets grounded, and the ground is released once engine is turning.

The yellow wire also goes other places, but if the yellow wire is not hot, then the relay cannot ever engage. I thought I checked that relay terminal 86, and found it always hot. I must have been wrong.

Tomorrow, I will put a voltmeter across pin 86 and ground, while my lovely assistant turns the key to the start position (the same lovely assistant that has a 5 pound keychain ). If I don't see voltage, then I can assume the ignition switch or wiring is bad.

[brcidd]

Originally Posted by gromittoo

I will check the yellow wire tomorrow. I still expected the van to start while the key was in the "run" position, and I was bypassing the starter relay.

If it were mine, I'd go under the dash and check the dark blue wire out of ignition switch for hot in run, and the yellow for hot in start.....