VZ Commodore Info?

[russell booth]

The VT - VY Commodore is not built off an Omega platform,Holden ditched that as the VS was the last OPEL based car to be manufactured as a Commodore.
My parents have a VX Commodore, has a totally different floorpan & chassis to the VB-VS Commodores,Holden even said they were doing away with the OPEL body back in 1998 before they released the VT.

[P Stewart]

Originally posted by russell booth
The VT - VY Commodore is not built off an Omega platform,Holden ditched that as the VS was the last OPEL based car to be manufactured as a Commodore.
My parents have a VX Commodore, has a totally different floorpan & chassis to the VB-VS Commodores,Holden even said they were doing away with the OPEL body back in 1998 before they released the VT.

Thats not what I've heard. Once the VT was released, Ford took one apart and they said it was almost identical to the Vaxhaul Omega.
And if it wasn't based on the Omega, then what is it based on?

[russell booth]

I could trust Ford to say that after all they are Holdens rival,I have a VL and my brother has a VN and the underbody is nothing like what is under the VX,one thing I have heard about Ford (which may be or not be true ) is the underbody from the EA up to the BA is the same.

[P Stewart]

I aksed around and the VT/VX is heavily based on the Omega. If you look at both at the right angle you can see the simularities.

For example, the c pillar is identical on both cars and the doors are extremely similar.

About the BA, yes I think they are similar under-neith, although the BA was heavily changed with the addition IRS and its now longer. The front setup has also been changed I think.

[russell booth]

I could trust Ford to say that after all they are Holdens rival,I have a VL and my brother has a VN and the underbody is nothing like what is under the VX,one thing I have heard about Ford (which may be or not be true ) is the underbody from the EA up to the BA is the same.

[Jimster]

The VT/VX/VY is based around the CURRENT Opel Omega- which was released around about the same time as the VR Commodore. The VR/VS were facelifted VN/VP/VQ's- which is on an Opel Senator (1980's Omega platform) and the VB was done around the Opel Reckford plans- but had to be modifed extensively- I actually have an interesting article on the Opel Reckford----> VB Commodore transformation.....I'll type it up later. The next Commodore will most likely ride on the new Sigma platform.

The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.

[P Stewart]

Originally posted by Jimster
The VT/VX/VY is based around the CURRENT Opel Omega- which was released around about the same time as the VR Commodore. The VR/VS were facelifted VN/VP/VQ's- which is on an Opel Senator (1980's Omega platform) and the VB was done around the Opel Reckford plans- but had to be modifed extensively- I actually have an interesting article on the Opel Reckford----> VB Commodore transformation.....I'll type it up later. The next Commodore will most likely ride on the new Sigma platform.

The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.

Yep, thanks Jimster you are correct.

The next, VE , 'will' be based on the Sigma platform which it will share with alot of other GM products. I agree that Holden are very lucky for this because there current platform is very dated and lags well behind the Falcons.

[Thunda Downunda]

Originally posted by Jimster
The VT/VX/VY is based around the CURRENT Opel Omega- which was released around about the same time as the VR Commodore. The VR/VS were facelifted VN/VP/VQ's- which is on an Opel Senator (1980's Omega platform) and the VB was done around the Opel Reckford plans- but had to be modifed extensively- I actually have an interesting article on the Opel Reckford----> VB Commodore transformation.....I'll type it up later. The next Commodore will most likely ride on the new Sigma platform.

The BA Falcon isn't based around a foreign floorplan however- the design may be about 15-odd years old- but the Falcon STILL has the handling edge over the Commodore- The Commodore is lucky enough to have the benefit of foreign floorplans at it's disposal.

I think I've seen that 'Reckford' article - be good to see it again

VT-VY Commodore origins are derived from the original late '70s Opel V-car, yet comparing the style-theme of a C pillar doesn't prove them to be the same car as the final-gen Omega . Compare the underskin engineering as compared to the last RWD Opel. Completely different chassis rails, front structure, crash cans, front suspension, steering etc etc. And that's just the front end ..

Likewise if you were a pedantic hard-case it's arguable that the BA Ford is .. ultimately .. based on the 1966 US Falcon platform, albeit heavily modified. You could similarly argue that current Mustang just an updated Pinto. An A9X Torana is 'based' on a 1967 1200cc Vauxhall Viva. However this is plainly absurd, just as is calling a VT nothing more than an Opel clone. Both Falcon & Commodore evolved from source cars over many decades into the unique product they are today

[replicant_008]

The VN Commodore owed its doorskins and basic engineering to the Opel Omega as a donor car. This saved GMH a significant amount of development cash for the platform.

However, as TD notes saying its an Opel Clone is stretching things a bit. The V6 engine was derived from a Buick FWD powerplant and turned 90 degrees to create North-South driveline. The original VN had a live axle located with arms and an Panhard Rod from the VL although the semi-trailing arm IRS is classic Opel Omega (the toe control arms on the HSV are Lotus Carlton developed).

The floorplan was significantly modified as a result and the VN on Commodores are a helluva lot wider than the Omega. The airbag systems on the current Commodore are markedly different from anything from Europe.

The BA Platform is a significant upgrade on the AUIII platform especially the changes to the rear end ditching the previous wishbone rear end and going for the lighter weight control blade IRS. But it's essentially its EA26 in many respects (which was a significant variation on the XF platform). The SLALS wishbone in the Falcon has been around a long time and a lot of the platform (including the umbrella hand brake until ED) has been around a long time.

It's interesting that the Mustang link has been mentioned but given the possibility of a low-cost DEW platform derivative it could be 'back to the future.'

[Jimster]

Originally posted by replicant_008
The VN Commodore owed its doorskins and basic engineering to the Opel Omega as a donor car. This saved GMH a significant amount of development cash for the platform.

However, as TD notes saying its an Opel Clone is stretching things a bit. The V6 engine was derived from a Buick FWD powerplant and turned 90 degrees to create North-South driveline. The original VN had a live axle located with arms and an Panhard Rod from the VL although the semi-trailing arm IRS is classic Opel Omega (the toe control arms on the HSV are Lotus Carlton developed).

The floorplan was significantly modified as a result and the VN on Commodores are a helluva lot wider than the Omega. The airbag systems on the current Commodore are markedly different from anything from Europe.

The BA Platform is a significant upgrade on the AUIII platform especially the changes to the rear end ditching the previous wishbone rear end and going for the lighter weight control blade IRS. But it's essentially its EA26 in many respects (which was a significant variation on the XF platform). The SLALS wishbone in the Falcon has been around a long time and a lot of the platform (including the umbrella hand brake until ED) has been around a long time.

It's interesting that the Mustang link has been mentioned but given the possibility of a low-cost DEW platform derivative it could be 'back to the future.'

You and Thunda both are pretty much on the money......But then again no-one was calling the Commodore and Opel-clone- the Cadillac Catera has that base covered The V6 and V8 are totally different from the 2.2, 2.5 and 3.2 in the Opel (Same engines as the Vectra more or less) the V6 is from Buick, the 5.0 and 5.7 from Chevrolet. But there is nothing wrong with part sharing- it cuts down on development costs- something that is demonstrated quite well with the VAG's platforms- most notably PQ34 (Golf, TT, A3, Octavia,Leon etc.....)

[Thunda Downunda]

Two small points:
That 5.0 litre VT V8 was the Holden engine, not a Chevrolet design

http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/news/n...doc=gmh9906281

Wasn't the SLALS front-end of EA-EL dropped, replaced by a proper double wishbone system in the AU?

[replicant_008]

SLALS - The XA-XF had a unequal wishbone design and when EA came along it suddenly got designated SLALS (Short and Long Arm, Long Spindle) but there wasn't a lot of difference between the XF to EA design. To be absolutely honest apart from geometry and some subtle changes to location points there still isn't a lot of difference (well to my old eyes anyway). And the steering rack is still behind the front axle...

Incidentally, the lower arm bushes were prone to failure it seems as well but that's another story...

One of the compromises that happened during the EA development was that manual (ie non-power steering) was engineered into the programme and it was only a very late decision to go with power steering across the board. For some reason - cost saving probably the geometry was a compromise between precision and steering effort - stuck in no man's land. The same thing happened with the lamentable initial transmission choice - the ancient three speed auto going in with the first cam in head Falcon sixes - a job that it was completely unsuited for.

The EB-EF rear end styling was hampered by the installation of rails in the rear of the car to help control NVH late in the EA programme - but the quick fix it meant problems for the later cut and shut on the facelifts which is why they are essentially the same until AU turned up.

Ford has had a bit of a track record for doing this - the 'hotchkiss' rear end in the first XD's ie live rear axles with leaf springs which still grace the wagon and ute (and to be honest do a good job with the load compromises) before the watts linkage rear end turned up in XE. The iron head in the first XD's too before being replaced by 'alloy head' - I had one of the XF's with the EEC-IV EFI and with that awful digital dash.

And the throttle body injection (ie effectively a needle less carbie) for the initial 3.9 and 3.2 (what a wheezer that engine was) in the first EAs - which had a predilection for fuel starvation when you went round sustained corners at high speed (ie the bloody things would stall) and the very underdeveloped self-leveling suspension in the first EA Ghias (which ended up stranding me outside the lobby of a five star hotel in Auckland when the whole rear end collapsed onto the tyres when the plastic air reservoir burst).

I have to admit I'm not a fan at all of the AU Series - part of the reason I'm driving the Mondeo - although the upgrades have improved the car (in the same way by the time EB3 V8 Ghia came along it wasn't a bad car ie it was what EA should have been but it was 3 years too late!). I've had a few short pedals in the BA and have to admit it's a much more settled car and the development seems comprehensive and complete for a change. Although I'm not a big fan of forced induction - and I worry about the longevity of the locally made BTR T5in the XR6T (I keep thinking the Tremec TR-3650 would have been a better choice for it!)

[Thunda Downunda]

The only passenger car I know of that incorporates a steering box/rack mounted ahead of the front axle line is the redoubtable HQ-HZ-WB. Many rough-road advantages to that system

I'm no real fan of struts. Of course the old 1960 XK Falcon had double wishbones (as did 1948 Holden) and happy to be corrected on this Replicant, but had heard the EA-EL SLALS was from the US Ranger or Explorer design, now replaced by bona fide double-'A's?

That XF digi-dash was a disaster yeah

Btw, local reports say impressive XR6 Turbo has at least equal pace to XR8 & even GT. Although the B/W box might prove marginal in extremis for budget-priced XR6T it can't be as fragile as WRX etc junk

[Jimster]

Originally posted by Thunda Downunda


Two small points:
That 5.0 litre VT V8 was the Holden engine, not a Chevrolet design

fuck.....My bad.......Work's been getting the better of me you are dead right.......can't find that article I was looking for- but I have another one that relates to relations between Holden and Opel in general- I'll whizz it up tomorrow morning

[russell booth]

Just to clear the air I requested some information on the development of the VT Commodore from Holden,back in 1992 they made a few prototypes of what was going to be the VT Commodore,they were considering either fully importing the V-2800 Opel Omega or to manufacture it here,or to manufacture the U.S designed Buick Park Avenue or the Cadillac Seville.
They went to their other approach to Australianise the Opel Omega,using similar panels,components,etc but so it will not look like the Omega,they did go to the approach of doing a total makeover of the VR Commodore in 1992 which was one of the prototypes built.
They do admit the car has European styling which resembles an Opel but they tried to stretch the Opel body out by modifying its design so it had more space to fit a bigger air conditioning unit,to provide a bigger entry by modifying the door frames and widening the wheel base but found out it was going to be far easier to start from scratch as it wasn't economical to modify an Opel design.
So the VT-VY is not an Opel body,it would be like saying that Ford Australia pinched the design of the headlamps and tail lamps from the Ford Mustang in the 80's as the similarly aged model XE headlamps look like Mustang headlamps,the ribbed designed XF sedan tail lamps were the same "style" as the Mustangs at the time ,but not necessarily the same design.
It would also be like saying a HJ KIngswood is a doneover Cadillac,its style is off a Cadillac but the parts wouldn't not fit onto a Cadillac.