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11-23-2004, 04:33 PM | #46 | |
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But McLaren proved that forced induction was not required. You just need a company that knows how to build a good engine to design one with better specs. Even Ferrari abandoned turbocharging on it's supercars after the F40. Surely they must realize it's not ideal as well.
>8^) ER |
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11-23-2004, 04:37 PM | #47 | |
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Re: Re: Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
So a car must provide a pure driving experience (thru the use of a NA engine) to be a "true" supercar?
That would mean a Lotus 7 from the 60's could be considered as a supercar. It provides a very pure driving experience. Ferrari Enzo: 0-30mph: 1.79mph 0-60mph: 3.52secs 0-100mph: 6.69secs Reaction time: 0.21secs 100-0mph: 4.08secs Overall: 10.98secs Caterham R500 Evolution: 0-30mph: 1.45mph 0-60mph: 3.21secs 0-100mph: 6.92secs Reaction time: 0.21secs 100-0mph: 3.60secs Overall: 10.73secs <--------------- BONKERS!!! The Caterham is a quicker car than the Enzo from 0-100-0. But it's not really considered a supercar either... perhaps because the cost of entry isn't high enough... So what makes a supercar a supercar?? |
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11-23-2004, 04:43 PM | #48 | |
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
Believe me, I'm all for NA engines. I drive an LS1 powered Holden. good, fun, NA V8... And i've got my eyes on a 1999 M3 and my dream car is the new E60 M5. Just because I believe NA is the best way to power a great car (and no-one does this better than BMW) doesn't mean it has to be the only way, and everything else is crap, which is what Gordon is saying...
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11-23-2004, 05:41 PM | #49 | |
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Does anyone else agree?
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11-23-2004, 05:47 PM | #50 | ||
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Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
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Thats the perfect Veyron equation ,no doubt about it. |
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11-23-2004, 06:16 PM | #51 | |||
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
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>8^) ER |
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11-23-2004, 06:20 PM | #52 | ||
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
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To me it seems he is saying that F/I just doesn't provide a pure driving experience, not that the technology is crap. Obviously he wouldn't have thought it was crap through the years of Formula One engines that utilized it. >8^) ER |
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11-24-2004, 08:07 AM | #53 | ||
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Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
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Greg A |
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11-24-2004, 11:02 AM | #54 | ||
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Re: Re: Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
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PS..Malka..lovly link!... |
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11-24-2004, 03:20 PM | #55 | |
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Kirium, your points of view are great and I have to say this is one of the best discussions on these cars that I have read. Often times these can get ridiculous but this has gone on for (phew!) 4 pages and it's still a mature discussion.
On to Murray's interview... I think I would react the same way if the person conducting the interview tossed out bonehead questions like those. It seems like this John Barker guy prepared for his interview by looking up "McLaren F1" on his closest bulletin board. He got it all wrong! I don't blame GM for being short with the guy. He's been answering the same questions over and over again since Ferrari released the F50 in 1995(?). I especially love GM's answer to the 5th question about embracing superchargers. As for this debate about what the best supercar is, GM has one vision of what a sportscar/supercar should NOT be. And the F1 is thus far the best example of that vision. No one has to agree to it or accept it as the end-all-be-all of supercar design and engineering. But he has found enough like-minded people to sell 64 examples of his version of "the best supercar". And from reading that interview I don't get the impression that he is worried about another car(s) knocking the F1 off the top of the supercar pedestal. He said it best: "We’ve had our 10 year reign, take the crown." I have to disagree with you on the F1 vs Veyron debate. I think they are very much alike. I think the F1 road car was designed to be just as much of a autobahn cruiser as the Veyron (comfy seats, quiet operation, luggage space, CD changer, good A/C). But the execution is quite different. You've noted the interior on the Veyron. The F1 has a full leather and carpet interior too. But the F1 catered to a more sporting clientele than the Veyron will. I guess to sum up my point, any supercar will have an enormous task of creating, developing, selling, and supporting a car that will better the F1 in all categories (fun, driveability, speed, reliability, comfort, design, build quality, etc). In my humble opinion, it's going to have to be a manufacturer with deep pockets and a strong belief in the seeing the project through to the end. Ferrari certainly could; Porsche could; maybe BMW if they had the interest. Drew P.S. -- thinking of all of this really put it into perspective for me that McLaren built only 64 road cars... Such a tiny amount for a fairly long production run. This is one instance where I think I would rather have had more road cars than racecars. |
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11-24-2004, 04:38 PM | #56 | |
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Personally I reckon the difference between the F1 and Veyron can be summed up like this:
GM set out to create the ultimate sportscar whereas Bugatti plan to create the ultimate supercar. The debating about what constitutes a supercar on here is kind of ironic since GM has never used the word when describing the F1. He hated the word for all the negative associations with it. A sportscar according to GM should be light in mass and controls, have a bit of roll to let you feel what the car is doing in corners and have a generous and responsive engine. It should be packaged well and have racecar DNA without being a roadgoing version of one. A supercar on the other hand must be ludicrously powerful, tremendously exclusive (by being incredibly difficult to get hold of and be extraordinarily expensive once you have) and so exotically beautiful that it snaps knicker elastic at 100 paces. Of course sportscars are ordinarily designed to a cost. The F1 shows what can happen if you don't... |
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11-25-2004, 09:11 AM | #57 | ||
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
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GM attacks the K'segg really for no reason... He says you almost can't count cars like that. I'm not sure why, but he expresses his disapproval for supercharging, which the CC8S and CCR use, so perhaps that's the reason. But that seems a bit hipocritical since the SLR is supercharged and AMG uses bi-turbos. I can understand his resentment toward the Veyron, simply on it's concept, but still don't think it's warranted... His disregard for the CC is even less warranted. It's a well rounded sports car, that according to some articles (EVO) is one of the best on earth, but doesn't have a NA V10 or V12. That doesn't make it a car you can't count. It has had a very long gestation period, but that only allows their test drivers (ex-racer Rickard Rydell?) to hone the car so it is as good as it can be. It's acknowledged by EVO and TopGear as the most serious threat to the F1 now. Perhaps GM would have a different opinion of it now, or at least take it more seriously now that it's being tested and driven and people are wanting to buy it (I heard it found 1 buyer here in Australia when shown at the Australian Motor Show in Sydney last month). that interview is about 2 years old now, and the Keonigsegg has come quite a long way. |
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11-25-2004, 10:04 AM | #58 | ||||||
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Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
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02-02-2005, 12:08 PM | #59 | |
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Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
Maybe it's just me and what will probably be considered as my blasphemous views but i dont think GM wrote the definition of "supercar." IMO the F1 is still one of the top supercars but i dont think it will be long before tests prove it to no longer be #1. He says supercharging is better than turbocharging? Why is that? Is weight the factor because it cant be the efficiency of the system. As for saying that a NA motor is more efficient than a turbo motor (maybe i was reading that wrong), that is completly false. Turbocharged engines regularly can produce over 100% efficiency if setup right. As for driving experience, a turbo car that is setup correctly wont just put a smile on your face or have serious "lag" but it will be a smooth transition into higher power with boost. I like the F1 and i respect GM for producing a car that has held it's reign as the #1 supercar for over 10 years but i think it's days are numbered. It will however be remembered forever as a milestone to performance and functionality. Lets hope the next reigning champion has the same success.
William
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02-02-2005, 05:22 PM | #60 | ||||
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Re: Re: Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?
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