Gordon Murray letter in Evo to Koenigsegg?

[mini magic]

If i had realized what issue it was, i would have just scanned it

Thanks anyway Kirium

[Kirium]

Now someone pipes up and says they can scan it...

Gave me something to do...

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by Kirium

Now someone pipes up and says they can scan it...

Gave me something to do...

Nice work man!! Thanks for taking the time to do that for us. You Rock!

BTW: You can still scan it for us Chris.

= = = = = =

My response:

I think Gordon Murray has a right to be cocky if that's the description given to his responses here. Just look at his achievements through his career. You could even ignore the entire McLaren F1 project and just look at the countless inovations he made during his years in Formula One - when it comes to racing technology and engineering the man is a true genius.

Looking at what he achieved with the McLaren F1 is really the icing on the cake, for lack of a better metaphor. It didn't just beat the other cars on the market, it literally redefined that class of car and set the bar very high for future offerings to target.

It's been over a decade since the F1 was introduced, and nearly two decades since initial development began on the car in 1988, and its still regarded as one of the greatest road cars ever made, if not the greatest. The only place you could really say the McLaren F1 failed was on price, and well when you set out to build something uncompromising, you certainly can't ammend that rule in order to keep the price low.

I'm sure Christian Koenigsegg has an interesting reply, and I do look forward to reading it eventually, but GM hasn't said anything here that he should be ashamed of in my opinion.

Side note: Let us not forget Martin Brundle's comments in regards to the Koenigsegg in his "Supercars" DVD where it finished "surprisingly down in 8th place". Even the Bugatti EB110 and Jaguar XJ220 would finish ahead of it. Brundle's final words on the CC8S: "It's beautiful, but it's just not sorted - feels like an early prototype. Great car in there though." In the car's defense, maybe this was an early prototype, but why would you send a car like that out as an example of your best work for a review like this. Makes no sense to me, and if they didn't provide the car, then that's even worse as it would mean that it was an actual customer's car that felt that way.

>8^)
ER

[Kirium]

I wouldn't say he said anything to be ashamed of... Just came across as overly aggressive.

GM talks of the virtues of torque, and he should realise the supercharged CCR will have close to the same torque as an AMG CL65 (1000Nm in my language) Just because he doesn't think forced aspiration is the best path to go down and he wouldn't choose it, doesn't make turbo technology a bad thing. But he slams it like it's just run over his cat...

EVO reviewed the Koenigsegg CC8S in issue 061 and tested it against the Enzo and Zonda, and all 3 cars received 5 stars. Brundle certainly doesn't seem fond of it. was he involved with the F1 tho??

A blend consistent blend of heft and deftness, the Koenigsegg requires a firm, guiding hand, but rewards with surprising sensitivity and precision

The Koenigsegg's massive V8 hammers away in brutal fashion, like a thunderstorm confined within the engine bay

The CC8S' chassis has been honed by the same man who did the Zonda: Loris Bicocchi. It seems to have the potential to do some things better than the F1.

The Bugatti on the other hand isn't even really comparable to the F1. It's totally different in concept to the F1, so I don't know why GM gets so aggressive to a product it seems he doesn't truely understand. Looking at interior photo's of the Veyron, it's totally covered in light cream leather, and has the option of coming with a diamond encrusted in the centre of the speedo needle. It's a powerful, luxurious, sleek supercar... not the ultimate distilled driving experience like the F1. It's not meant to be, but GM seems insistent that all cars should be built by the same principles that he put into the F1, which is pretty crazy IMHO.

I think GM's a brilliant designer, but he's come across as overly agressive to others in the industry who are just trying to build good cars.

[Peloton25]

You know - Clarkson loved the Koenigsegg too, but that's still not saying much.

I'm more willing to take the opinion from a man like Martin Brundle on a car than someone who writes for a car magazine every month. No offense to those people really, but Brundle is most certainly in a different league. Tiff Needel is practically on the same level as Brundle and still feels the McLaren F1 is the best as well. I don't know if he's had a chance to sample the Koenigsegg yet, but I would give value to his thoughts on it if he had a differing opinion than that of Brundle.

>8^)
ER

[Kirium]

I'm not trying to suggest that the CCR will better the F1. As an overall package, I highly doubt it, but I think it has the potential to excel in a few areas, top speed may be one of those things. GM basically says it's rediculous to judge a cars merit simply on top speed, but I know that the top speed of the F1 was written across the side of a transporter and is the most common bit of info people associate with the F1. People don't talk much about the purpose built hi-fi ect. they talk about top speed. it's one of the biggest bragging rights of a supercar, and perhaps GM feels that if that's eclipsed, the F1 will no longer be the king of the hill. I don't believe that, and either does Murray, but he has a pretty aggressive way of getting that point across...

I wasn't suggesting Brundle lacked credit, infact i'd say he's a far more accomplished driver than 99.9% of auto journo's (that guy from Auto motor und Sport is pretty quick around the 'ring tho... Horst von Saruma?) but I thought he was involved in F1 development, and probably feels the same way as GM toward the CC8S...

[Thorst13]

I totally agree with U Peleton!
I think Murray has completely right.

The Bugatti Veyron is a completely stupid car, it's so redicously.
Bugatti has always made weird cars, but in least I liked the EB110.
Koenigsegg is a beautiful car I think, but it does NOT have the raffinement of a McLarenF1. The Koenigsegg has NEVER proven to be that fast offically , and I doubt it can handle the McLaren any other way than top-speed in a straight.
I really love Ferrari, but again Murray has right, Ferrari has had their screwups through the years. I do not think the Enzo brakes are particulary durable....?

I can not see a car in this world even close to the McLaren F1 GT!
It is still years till we see something that can even come close to it performancewise.

[Peloton25]

Just that last line - if you are suggesting that Brundle was in any way involved in the development of the McLaren F1 road car, I don't think he was. If I'm just reading it wrong, no worries mate.

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the Koenigsegg and nearly every exotic car ever made barring that god awful Edonis thing. I think the CCR looks spectacular and has the potential to unseat all the performance figures of the McLaren F1. I can't wait for a credible test of that car and I won't cry if it, or something else, should finally manage to upstage the F1s performance in some way.

>8^)
ER

[Thorst13]

Originally Posted by Kirium

I'm not trying to suggest that the CCR will better the F1. As an overall package, I highly doubt it, but I think it has the potential to excel in a few areas, top speed may be one of those things. GM basically says it's rediculous to judge a cars merit simply on top speed, but I know that the top speed of the F1 was written across the side of a transporter and is the most common bit of info people associate with the F1. People don't talk much about the purpose built hi-fi ect. they talk about top speed. it's one of the biggest bragging rights of a supercar, and perhaps GM feels that if that's eclipsed, the F1 will no longer be the king of the hill. I don't believe that, and either does Murray, but he has a pretty aggressive way of getting that point across...

I do agree with you on this one!
He seems pretty defensive. The top speed will probably be broken, but no one has yet.....

[Cockrocket]

thanks for posting up that convo. I scim read it and i feel i got the jist of what murray was saying and i agree with him. Bugatti are being to narrow minded about breaking the speed record. I read in a report not so long ago that the Veyron will have to use special (expensive) tyres to go over 200mph, and test a race track showed it to bery very unstable and awful around a track. Spun many times on the straight!!!...The mclaren will always be one of the greatest acheivments in supercar design, plus i cant see the veyron winning le mans or competing in the GT series. Personely i think murray is one of the best designers around, i think they should make another mclaren f1 and no doubt that would beat any supercar going today. Granted they had a chance of doing that with the SLR but mercedes ruined that when they wanted it to be luxurious..if they stuck to mclarens weight limit of around 1300kg, it would have been a lot better!

This may be a little off thread but what record does the Dauer 962 hold? Is it world fastest street legal car as that can do over 250mph! or is that just unofficialy?

[MalkaJB]

Originally Posted by Kirium

It's not meant to be, but GM seems insistent that all cars should be built by the same principles that he put into the F1, which is pretty crazy IMHO.

That is one thing in this interview that annoyed me about Murray. He kept talking about how the Zonda was the only supercar that "kept to the formula." Who says that there is a set formula for supercar design? Just because other companies did it differently, that doesn't make their method wrong. He came off very hypocritical, considering that the F1 was about breaking the molds on supercar design, thinking outside the box, etc. Murray seems like a very biased, close-minded individual. Like one of those annoying, snooty parents who think their kids are better than everyone else. He's also a little overly defensive when talking about the Veyron. Murray's aggressive demeanor lead me to believe that the idea of a car beating the F1's top speed record would bother him more than he lets on.

Also, just because I love the F1, that doesn't mean I'm going to take everything that Gordon Murray says for gospel. Don't get me wrong; I think that Gordon Murray is probably one of the greatest engineers/car designers ever. I just don't agree with some of the things he said in this interview.

[Gustav]

Gordon also comments the Dauer 962 in a letter to Evo:

"Firstly, our records are only valid for a true production car which has passed full EEC type approval and emmisions testing. There have been several other low volume specials (such as the Porsche 962) that have acheived a higher top speed)."

Gordon Murray, technical director McLaren Cars Ltd

http://www.bmwm5.com/articles.php?id=15&page=3

[Kirium]

Cockrocket, I think you're missing the point of the Veyron as well...

The F1 was inspired by single-seat racing. It's genes come from someone who used to build Formula 1 cars. It has a carbon monocoque ect. It's essentially a road car built along race car principles... light weight, low centre of gravity, small packaging ect ect...

The Veyron on the other hand...
Does not have racing aspirations (and is not homologated by the FIA (and the F1 homologation expires this year)), has an ultra-luxury interior (see below), 4WD, a W16 engine with 4 turbos ect ect... It'll be the ultimate high-speed continent-crossing supercar.

I can't honestly see how the 2 are real competitors... The only thing they'll have in common is an astronomical price and a very high top speed. apart from that, they're chalk and cheese. But Murray must be pretty defensive of that top speed title to be attacking Bugatti so fiercely. I don't think they're trying to build a McLaren F1, but Gordon seems to think that everyone should follow his formula... What a boring world it'd be if everyone did it his way...

From Forbes.com

Forbes Fact
Among the many options a Veyron buyer can order, are two one-carat diamonds, cut with 16 sunray facets (16 being the number of cylinders the engine features). The two diamonds reside, respectively, on the speedometer needle, and at the center of something Bugatti calls the "powermeter."

http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...on_Country.pdf

Also, where did you read the report on the Veyron's high-speed instability (in a straight line no less) I find it hard to believe that models haven't spent many hundreds of hours in wind tunnels honing all sorts of dynamics, before even turning a single wheel on the track. sounds highly unusual...

Peleton, I thought i had read something about Brundle doing some test driving of the F1 during development. i've just had a flip thru DA tho and can't find it, so I must have been mistaken... my bad

[mini magic]

you do know that Bugatti changed the Veryons top speed to around 220-230 (can't remember exactly)?

[Mr. Bernoulli]

Originally Posted by Kirium

...The Veyron on the other hand...
Does not have racing aspirations (and is not homologated by the FIA (and the F1 homologation expires this year)), has an ultra-luxury interior (see below), 4WD, a W16 engine with 4 turbos ect ect... It'll be the ultimate high-speed continent-crossing supercar.

Okay so knock off the seemingly unnecessarily complicated engine and transmission and you have that car already - the Gordon Murray developed SLR.

Originally Posted by Kirium

Also, where did you read the report on the Veyron's high-speed instability (in a straight line no less) I find it hard to believe that models haven't spent many hundreds of hours in wind tunnels honing all sorts of dynamics, before even turning a single wheel on the track. sounds highly unusual...

Not always, no. They got it the right way round with the F1 (wind tunnel dictating the shape) but VW couldn't wait to show the world how exciting a company they really were and what their stylists had been working on. If you want to see just how much a car's styling can change once the CFD work has been done, try comparing the Vision SLR with the MM SLR.

Originally Posted by Kirium

I can't honestly see how the 2 are real competitors... The only thing they'll have in common is an astronomical price and a very high top speed. apart from that, they're calk and cheese. But Murray must be pretty defensive of that top speed title to be attacking Bugatti so fiercely. I don't think they're trying to build a McLaren F1, but Gordon seems to think that everyone should follow his formula...What a boring world it'd be if everyone did it his way...

This I have to disagree on!


I don't think the interview shows that GM is worried about the F1's top speed but rather, like you said, that these are two very different cars and he is sick of irritating journo's asking the same stupid questions (not evo of course). He was able to take a completely clean sheet of paper for the F1 (that being the difference) and spents years getting it just right, for someone to come along and say "Oh it looks like this new car is going to have a higher number in this little box than your car. How does it feel that your car is now a pile of crap..."