Muscle Cars - Chevy vs Ford

[Combatspace]

Originally Posted by MuscleBuick

well i'm pretty rell rounded when it comes to ford vs. chevy but when i 1st got into the hobby i was ford guy so there's always gonna be that part of me that's blue oval but i think they're pretty equal with ford having a tiny edge.
there's some ford's i'd want over chevy's and some chevy's i'd want over fords.
boss 429,351,and 302 over z28
z28 over gt350 and C/S

Nice choices. I'd have to agree.

[MrPbody]

Malibu67,

Hard to tell from what you posted, but it appears you believe those two engines to be "small blocks"? Nope. They're both factory-configuration "big block Chevy". The nickname "Rat Motor" was applied to the BBC in olden times (396 and 427). 454 briefly was nicknamed "gopher" because it was so "big" compared to the others. A "porcupine" is usually an aftermarket bored/stroked BIG CID big block, like a 496. But today, things have changed, as the factory is producing (not installing in cars) 502s and 572s, throwing all that "size" stuff kinda to the wind.

Combatspace,

ALL those cars you refer to are "pony cars", not muscle cars... NO muscle car EVER came with a small block... "Never send a boy to do a MAN'S job...!"

This is one of those things that have gotten dilluted over time. The only true "mucsle car" built since 1972 was the '04-'06 GTO (intermediate size car with high performance engine). Even that can be debated, as the LS-1 and LS-2 aren't "big". The '73-'77 intermediates with big engines had no real power to speak of until extensively modified. The last "monster" engine installed in a factory car of that era was the 455 SD in a limited number of '73 and '74 Trans Ams, also "pony cars". The last "good" 454 installed in a Chevelle was the '71 LS-6 454 (450 HP). I've heard of '72s with them, but never had one verified as "original". LS-7 454 (460 HP, yah, right... 550 was more like it...) was a BEAST, but only "dealer installed".

FWIW

Jim

[72chevelleOhio]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

. The only true "mucsle car" built since 1972 was the '04-'06 GTO

The last "good" 454 installed in a Chevelle was the '71 LS-6 454 (450 HP). I've heard of '72s with them, but never had one verified as "original".

You rang?
You mean '71 with a 425 hp... And I also found the 450 hp did not make it (leftovers) from '70 into the '71.

The '72's were the "dogs"................ Aw, son of a.......

History 1

Look an orange '72 (history 2)

[97cobraman]

MY take has always been that chevy has always seemed to put out a beefier motor off the shelf. Fords (even though I am a Ford fan), you usually have to add some things to make it use the motors potential.

So Off the shelf you will get more bang for your buck with a chevy, but I would rather buy a ford and add to it any day... Just my take.

[kens67mustang]

The Mustang IS muscle car............sisce they put a BIG engine into a little car.They are also called PONY cars because they started their own class of small sporty cars..........Muscle car is a term used to describe a car with a big engine............the GTO didn't come with just a big engine.Don't throw the pony car name around as an excuse to not call a Mustang a muscle car.a Boss 429..or a Shelby GT500 is, and will be forever a MUSCLE CAR.

[kens67mustang]

the NEW GTO is hardly a new muscle car.............bland styling& 400hp? and can barely run 14's? sorry.......it's not a muscle car,just a wanna be.
i'll take the newer Cobras over any Pontiac offering.and the new Challenger? THAT& the Shelby's,are the NEW muscle cars on the block.

[kens67mustang]

heavily modified GTO's running 7's? they had better be............after all, they have Cobra mustangs running 6's that are just as modified.

[hotrod_chevyz]

The muscle car "ERA" is long over, so i dont think the list of true muscle cars will be growing.

I wonder how the new camaro will stack up against ford and dodges offerings.....



opcorn:

[72chevelleOhio]

Originally Posted by kens67mustang

the NEW GTO is hardly a new muscle car.............bland styling& 400hp? and can barely run 14's?

It runs mid 13's..
Heres a spec sheet....Motor trend
Still, I think it looks sorta boring....


I think Dodge done well on ("re")styling the new Challenger. I think I would buy one before I would buy the new Camaro..
However, $40k???? Not me....

[kens67mustang]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

429SCJ,

"Back in the day"... I had my '70 Judge w/366 HP 400 (Ram Air III). A close friend had a '70 Cyclone GT with the SCJ (solid lifter version). I had 3.55 gears and a Muncie. He had 3.50 gears and a Top Loader. Both cars were box-stock. I could beat him through a 1/4 mile by about 3'. His engine made more high-end power, and right past the 1/4, he would pop high gear and blow right on by! The Judge was a great performance car, but the Merc was much faster on the top end. From my experience, the Cyclone has the same running gear and performs just like the Torino. Never thought much of the 428s (I've seen 390GT Mustangs beat up on CJs), but that 429 is a great engine! One friend in SoCal has a '70 Mach 1 with the 428 SCJ. It's gorgeous, but it won't get out of the 14s... I understand this is a VERY RARE option in '70.

Jim

a 390 will not run with a 428CJ or a SCJ. the CJ was a rather popular option in both '69 & '70.and they ran strong.

[MrPbody]

Ken,

Are you trying to "call me out", or are you just good at reading magazines and "history"?

You should know, I've been buillding engines for over 30 years (as a professional, not a hobbyist). I've built them all at one time or another. I raced my GTO at the track and on the street, relentlessy from '72 through '78 when grown-up responsibilities began. I got beat occasionally, but a LOT less than I gave the beating. Not once, did a 428-powered (Ford) ANYTHING beat my 400 GTO, and I raced many. A couple of 390-powered pony cars (Mach 1 and Cougar, one each) gave me among the best runs I ever got from an FE. 427s were MUCH stronger, but simply too rare to consider. Most of them were in more expensive "race" cars and at the track every weekend. Us "poor folks" did street racing. The 429, on the other hand, is a GREAT engine.

It's true, in A and B/SS at the '68 Winternationals, the 428 Mustangs did well. Today, they're in "C/SS" because the developements of the "Hemi" made all others obsolete at the "A" level. We see one here and there, but not a popular racer. Too valuable as a collector car, I suspect, not unlike the Chevelle SSs (REAL ones) and GTOs. The Hemi cars that remain "unmolested" are also too valuable to race anymore. The ones that still do are older cars "kept up". There was one GT-500 running in B/SA at Indy last year. Went out in the first round.

My point here is to be sure the ground you're on. While it got rave reviews, the 428CJ never lived up to the "hype". The stroke was too long for the head design and the rod bearings are too big to really rev it. The relatively short stroke in the 390 and 427 made them MUCH better for performance (rod/stroke ratio and rod "angle"). 428 was originally developed as a "big car" engine. High in low-end torque, it made the better T-bird engine of the late '60s.

We've done one as recently as last Summer. It's in a '69 Torino GT, and is VERY nice. It's still a sled, though. We also did a 454 (427 block, 428 crank) about two years ago. It was a MAJOR torque monster, but the owner couldn't let go of the "rev" thing. He blew it up in short fashion. Large rod bearing, cast crank, 7,000 RPM... NOT a good combination. 428s are best left stock and geared "up" like Pontiacs, to take fullest advantage of all the torque (like the Pontiac...).

This is not to dispute anything, just to clarify with some "real world" experience.

Jim

[429SCJguy]

Jim,

You mentioned before the 428CJ you were building, is it a restoration or modded. How were the 428 and 454 equipped? I am restoring a presidential blue Torino Talladega with a 428CJ.

I also have a '70 Cobra 429SCJ 4 speed, candyapple red, trim rings, dog dishes and a '70 Torino GT 429CJ 4 speed white with red laser stripe, Magnum 500s, both restorations too.

The two '70s are nearly done.

[MrPbody]

429,

The 428 had relatively stock heads with "good" valves (stock size, lighter, SS). We put a bit larger dish in the piston to lower the compression to 9.3:1 and installed a Comp XE268H cam with the appropriate hardware. Stock intake, 3310, factory exhaust manifolds ("high flow"). It sure is purdy! He (the customer) bought a "Cobra" oil pan and valve covers to dress it up. He wasn't looking to pump it up. By changing the cam and compression, we improved it about 5% over "stock".

The "454" is another matter. That one was a BEAST. Edelbrock heads, Ford "racing" (older stuff) 2 x 4-bbl. with 2 660s, 12:1, .750" roller (276/280 @ .050), MSD, Hooker 2" SuperComps, BME rods, JE pistons, etc. It went 9.40s in a 2,800 lb. Fairmont UNTIL... It spun a rod bearing and broke the block in the process. Those cast cranks just can't take 7,000 RPM. Since 427 blocks are so rare and expensive, he opted for the Lima after that. Now, it's in the high 8s.

I REALLY like the Lima (385) design. We've done a few 514s that make a ton of power. BBC guys HATE them. (:- We hit on a combination using D0VE heads with major exhaust work done, that "shine". By "filling" the floor of the exhaust port and raising the roof, the overall cross-section is a bit smaller than original, but flows about 80% (not a typo) more than original. Went from 110 CFM @ .600" lift to 200. Not cheap. I would think the Blue Thunder or alloy CJ heads might be a better way to go. There was talk of "P-51" (Kaase's head) but I haven't heard any results. Is it out there yet? Does it "work"?

One of my fondest car memories stems from an old friend's '70 Cyclone GT, 429SCJ (solid lifter version). I believe I mentioned that car in earlier posts here. My GTO could beat it through a 1/4 mile plus about 10 feet. He would hit 4th and "See ya!"... My car had 3.55s and his had 3.50s. The Pontiac just made more low-end power and the Ford made more high-end.

Jim

[NRider]

I like the concept of the 2008 Chevrolet Camaro which is based boasted a 400 hp, 6.0 liter LS2 V8 engine with a six speed manual transmission. Active Fuel Management shuts down 4 cylinders to save on fuel when the engine load is light and achieves up to 30 mpg on the highway.
Really like it!

[MrPbody]

Same engine as the '05/'06 GTO with a little more electronics. Good stuff! Watch for it in G-8 "GXP" as well.

Jim