Lets slay some ricers!

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by dcatkin

Not that I'm getting defncive, but look where you are, brainwashed enough to believe in American Muscle, just think before you speak, the ZL-1 Camaro 1969 Ran 11.50s in the quarter mile, and what about the Buick GSX stage 3 and it's 12.35 in the quarter mile, just think before you speak, I can always find American muscle that's faster. Just think were the japs the first to run a car in the quarter mile.

David C. Atkin

OK lets get one thing streight, you are comparing a purpose built dragster aginst a high proformance street car. Even at that for the price of a ZL-1 Camaro you could put a WRX or an Evo into the low 11s or high 10s on streetable tires. I am not a muscle car basher like some "ricers" but I do give credit where credit is due, the Evo rocks. And consider more than just the 1/4 mile look at breaking 60-0 in 106ft! That is faster than the 360 Modena! Cornering at .97G that is a match for most supercars! 600ft slolom at over 71.6mph, that is the fastest production car that the world has ever seen! 0-30mph in .7 seconds! I don't care how you look at it that is one amazing car and you will not find a musclecar that will match it in overall proformance except for maby the new Viper (only a few even consider that a musclecar) I am not dissing anybody but you would have to be blind not to call that impressive for the amount that it costs.

[RedLightning]

I think we are kinda off the topic? (screw my first ?) i asked another one, but i cant find it, to many pages. It was about muscle car what is the translation now a days. I personaly think any car wiht 300 or more hp is a muscle car. what do u guys think?

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by rav440

first off JARED the 3 MUSCLE cars you mentioned were not built for drag . they were built for road and circle track racing .
can the evo run a sustained speed of 200mph for 500 miles and stay on the track ?
no ? didnt think so ! the SUPERBIRD can !

if you want to talk factory built drag cars that laugh at the 13.06

YENKO camaro 427
330 426 MAX WEDGE
HEMI CUDA
WS 30 STAGE III 455 olds
just to name a few .

and second i live in AMERICA i belive in buying AMERICAN . and you cant beat AMERICAN IRON !!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's not forget the Calloway Corvette, Nicky Camaro, Penske Camaro, COPO Camaro, I could go on all night, but I think I'll stop now, you just can't compare that crap to good old American muscle.

David C. Atkin

Editor

http://hp-car.com

[RedLightning]

Originally Posted by dcatkin

Let's not forget the Calloway Corvette, Nicky Camaro, Penske Camaro, COPO Camaro, I could go on all night, but I think I'll stop now, you just can't compare that crap to good old American muscle.

David C. Atkin

Editor

http://hp-car.com

lets not, but lets also try to get bak on topic. I agree with u guys though.

[Blue02R6]

Originally Posted by Um...Nameless Dork

I think we are kinda off the topic? (screw my first ?) i asked another one, but i cant find it, to many pages. It was about muscle car what is the translation now a days. I personaly think any car wiht 300 or more hp is a muscle car. what do u guys think?

I still hold ture to it's roots. A midsized car with a full sized car's engine. Trouble is they don't really make them now.

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

I guss that all of the muscleheads are getting defensive after the Japs started to bring over their next genaration sports cars. The Evo rocks. 13.06 in the 1/4 faster than the GT500 faster than the superbird faster than the Boss 429, and it gets good fuel economy, and you can carry your friends along to watch you smoke those outdated lumps of iron. I guss that if I was brainwashed enough to believe in American iron I would be definsive too.

Not defencive, just truthfull

Allow me to introduce you to the ZL1 Camaro, it was built in 1969 and still to this day their hasen't been a more powerfull muscle car ever built. Not your EVO for certain, would you consider 2 seconds faster just a bit faster then your EVO turd, this is a Chevrolet Camaro, I do believe that is American muscle and not a jap beer can. And it puls the same on the skid pad and yet has more power, of course with the old type front suspension and steering it does understeer horriblby, but then most of the front wheel drive cars do too, so now it handels better and gets you there faster. Plus it beats you down by 2 secs in the quarter mile, it of course is not cheaper, but is 30 years old. You should do a comparison on that, how meny EVO's are sitting in a junk yard after 30 years as compared to ZL1's, whitch by the way only 50 were ever built. These were very special cars, and not everybody could afford one, but they mean much more to American history and most American car people then that damn EVO ever will. http://musclev8.freeservers.com/zl1.htm

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

OK lets get one thing streight, you are comparing a purpose built dragster aginst a high proformance street car. Even at that for the price of a ZL-1 Camaro you could put a WRX or an Evo into the low 11s or high 10s on streetable tires. I am not a muscle car basher like some "ricers" but I do give credit where credit is due, the Evo rocks. And consider more than just the 1/4 mile look at breaking 60-0 in 106ft! That is faster than the 360 Modena! Cornering at .97G that is a match for most supercars! 600ft slolom at over 71.6mph, that is the fastest production car that the world has ever seen! 0-30mph in .7 seconds! I don't care how you look at it that is one amazing car and you will not find a musclecar that will match it in overall proformance except for maby the new Viper (only a few even consider that a musclecar) I am not dissing anybody but you would have to be blind not to call that impressive for the amount that it costs.

Just give it some thought, the Corvette Z06 out handels the Viper, it pulls a 1.2G rating on the skid pad or so says Road&Track

I can always find American cars to keep up with or beat the Jap stuff in every category, but what's the point, theirs no point to compare apples to oranges because you just can't get the results your looking for. As far as the slolom their is an American car that will beat those specs, but at this time I fail to remember what it's called, if I can get the name I will put it in here, but like I said it's pointless.

David C. Atkin

Editor

http://hp-car.com

[jon@af]

Originally Posted by dcatkin

EVO turd, jap beer can.

My, we aren't biased are we.

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by Um...Nameless Dork

lets not, but lets also try to get bak on topic. I agree with u guys though.

Yes let's do stay on the topic, but think just a little logic also. If I have a Chevy muscle car pmuping out say 1,100 hp and you own a rice grinder what's the point of the continued comparison, it's like comparing a skyscraper to the ocean, just about the opsite thing, let's keep the rice grinders racing in their own class on the strip. Also just a side note street racing in dangerous and it kills people let's keep the racing where it belongs and that's on the drag strip.

David C. Atkin

Editor

http://hp-car.com

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

OK lets get one thing streight, you are comparing a purpose built dragster aginst a high proformance street car. Even at that for the price of a ZL-1 Camaro you could put a WRX or an Evo into the low 11s or high 10s on streetable tires. I am not a muscle car basher like some "ricers" but I do give credit where credit is due, the Evo rocks. And consider more than just the 1/4 mile look at breaking 60-0 in 106ft! That is faster than the 360 Modena! Cornering at .97G that is a match for most supercars! 600ft slolom at over 71.6mph, that is the fastest production car that the world has ever seen! 0-30mph in .7 seconds! I don't care how you look at it that is one amazing car and you will not find a musclecar that will match it in overall proformance except for maby the new Viper (only a few even consider that a musclecar) I am not dissing anybody but you would have to be blind not to call that impressive for the amount that it costs.

If you want to talk Ferraris let's talk about it then, I do love the Italian cars.

Here are just a few specs on the F50 does your EVO kill this also, GENERAL
Make Ferrari Model F50
Engine Layout mid-engine/RWD Price $500,000
ENGINE
Type 4699cc V-12 Power 513bhp @ 8500RPM
Torque 347ft-lbs @ 6500RPM Redline ??????
Bore 3.3in/85mm Stroke 2.72in/69mm
Displacement 4688cc/286.6cu-in Compression Ratio 11.3:1
POWER TRAIN
Type Transverse mid-engine/ RWD Transmission V-12
GEAR RATIOS (:1)
1st 2.79 5th 1.11
2nd 2.00 6th 0.90
3rd 1.59 Reverse ??????
4th 1.32 Final Drive 3.70
DIMENSIONS
Wheelbase 101.6in/2581mm Length 176.4in/4481mm
Height 44.1in/1120mm Width 78.2in/1986mm
Curb Weight 2710lbs/1229kgs Drag (CD) ??????
Weight Distribution (F/R) ?????? Track (F/R) 63.8in/63.1in
1621mm/1603mm
PERFORMANCE
Top Speed 203mph/327kph 0-30 1.8 secs
0-60 3.6 secs 1-100 8.0 secs
1/4 mile 12.1 secs EPA City/Hwy ??????

and your EVO if it's the Mitsubishi then it's a 4 door family car, that's real cool look at this http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/9931/dfan/f50full2.html

Here are what I could find of the Modena specs

Model Line Overview

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model lineup: 360 Modena ($144,620); 360 Modena F1 ($154,550); 360 Spider ($161,475); 360 Spider F1 ($171,185)
Engines: 395-hp 3.6-liter dohc 40-valve V8
Transmissions: 6-speed automanual
Safety equipment (standard): ABS, traction control, front airbags
Safety equipment (optional): N/A
Basic warranty: 3 years/unlimited miles
Assembled in: Modena, Italy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Specifications As Tested

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model tested (MSRP): 360 Modena F1 ($154,550)
Standard equipment: power windows, mirrors and door locks, air conditioning, leather seating surfaces, AM/FM stereo/CD, adjustable shocks, xenon headlights, traction control
Options as tested (MSRP): N/A
Destination charge: ($1350)
Gas guzzler tax: N/A
Price as tested (MSRP): $155,900
Layout: mid-engine/rear-wheel drive
Engine: 3.6-liter dohc 40-valve V8
Horsepower (hp @ rpm): 395 @ 8500
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm): 275 @ 4750
Transmission: 6-speed automanual
EPA fuel economy, city/hwy: 11/16 mpg
Wheelbase: 102.3 in.
Length/width/height: 176.3/75.7/47.8 in.
Track, f/r: 65.7/63.7 in.
Turning circle: 35.4 ft.
Seating capacity: 2
Head/hip/leg room, f: 36.5/NA/46.5 in.
Head/hip/leg room, m: N/A
Head/hip/leg room, r: N/A
Cargo volume: 8.0 cu. ft.
Payload: N/A
Towing capacity: N/A
Suspension, f: Independent
Suspension, r: Independent
Ground clearance: 4.2 in.
Curb weight: 3291 lbs.
Tires: P215/45ZR-18 / P275/40ZR-18
Brakes, f/r: disc/disc with ABS
Fuel capacity: 25.1 gal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Italian cars are the only other cars that I respect like I do American Muscle, look at the specs and it's for obvous reasons.

David C. Atkin

Editor

http://hp-car.com

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by RedNeck383

For somebody who uses terrible grammar like yourself Dork, I don't think you've got a leg to stand on when calling somebody out on their own grammar... when infact it was just a 'slang' term.

And this is a terrible thread, all of our favorite muscle cars of old were built 30-40 years ago. I would hope the cars of today would be able to keep up or beat them with all the technology they have now. I just like knowing that now days most people rely on some sort of power adder like Nitrous, Turbo, Supercharger to get the power needed to surpass the older muscle cars.

Sure makes me feel good knowing I've got my 425hp from just the motor itself... and as far as motor builds go. It's pretty mild, there's a lot more I could and probably will untap from it.

First off redneck, no Redneck owns me. I would have to agree that this is a horrible thread to start, of course it's going to get the Muscle car freaks going with it, and that is only a natural thing.

[PWMAN]

Can't we all just get along?

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

You really don't know much do you? The Lancer has been out for 11 years and the are holding up very well. If you paid attentin to what has been going on in the automotive world you would know that. Yes I do think that most American cars are unreliable just read JD Power and chack the mechanical reliability for yourself. Did you get your car used because I know that new Camaros cost over 30k (with a V8) if you did get a new one for that price you got one heck of a deal. By the way if you think that we Americans have built a better sports car for the money name me one that can beat the Evo in at leased half of the proformance catagories that I mentioned for under 30k. I bet that you cannot. Don't argue with me based on your ideas give me facts and numbers because thay are not subject to your bias oppion, that would make your argument creditable. Don't mind my spelling I write in a hurry because I have other things to do.

First off Jared, let's not get our pantys in a bunch.

Once again proving what an idiot you are, I can name you American muscle that will beat your damn EVO down. How about the Z06 Corvette to start with, and after that the Viper. These are American cars and will beat the hell out of your four door peice of shit family EVO turd. Allow me to expound, here are your EVO specs 2003 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution
Estimated Price: $28,987
Engine
Engine Code: 4G63
Type: In-line four-cylinder,
turbocharged and intercooled,
iron block and aluminum head
Valvetrain: DOHC, four valves per cylinder
Displacement: 1997cc
Bore & Stroke: 85.0mm x 88.0mm
Compression Ratio: 8.8:1
Claimed HP: 271 hp @ 6500 rpm
Claimed torque: 273 lb-ft @ 3500 rpm
Measured wheel HP: 233 hp @ 5800 rpm
Measured wheel torque: 252 lb-ft @ 3800 rpm
Redline: 7000 rpm
Drivetrain
Layout: Transverse front engine,
all-wheel drive
Transmission: Five-speed manual
Gear Ratios
1: 2.928:1
2: 1.950:1
3: 1.407:1
4: 1.031:1
5: 0.720:1
Final drive: 4.529:1
Differentials
Front: Open
Center: Viscous limited-slip
Rear: Clutch type limited slip
Exterior Dimensions
Curb Weight : 3263 lb.
Weight Distribution F/R : 60/40
Overall Length: 178.5 in.
Wheelbase: 103.3 in.
Overall Width: 69.7 in.
Track F/R: 59.6 in./59.6 in.
Height: 57.1 in.
Suspension
Front: MacPherson struts with
aluminum lower control arm,
anti-roll bar
Rear: Upper and lower control
arms, one trailing link,
anti-roll bar
Brakes
Front: 12.7-inch Brembo ventilated
disc, four-piston calipers
Rear: 11.9-inch Brembo ventilated
disc, two-piston calipers
Wheels and Tires
Wheels: Enkei 17-inch aluminum alloy
Tires: 235/45ZR17 Yokohama A-046
Performance
0-30 mph: 1.7 sec.
0-60 mph: 5.3 sec.
30-50 mph: 2.1 sec
50-70 mph: 2.9 sec
Quarter Mile: 13.4 sec. @ 103 mph
Handling
Slalom Speed (700-ft slalom): 73.1 mph
Skidpad (200-ft diameter): .95g
Braking
60-0 stopping distance: 106 ft.
Lap time: 1:37.87


Dodge Viper

Price [$US] from $80,000 (Get the latest price here)

Layout front-engine / rear-wheel-drive
Drag Coefficient [cd] 0.40 (0.43 with top down)
Curb Weight [lb (kg)] 3357 (1522)
Weight Distribution [%f / r] 48 / 52
Trunk Space [cu ft. (L)] 8.4 (240)

Overall Length [in. (mm)] 175.6 (4459)
Overall Width [in. (mm)] 78.5 (1944)
Overall Height [in. (mm)] 47.6 (1210)
Wheelbase [in. (mm)] 98.8 (2510)
Track Front [in. (mm)] 57.8 (1469)
Track Rear [in. (mm)] 60.9 (1547)

Steering Rack & Pinion; Power-assisted
Turning Radius [ft. (m)] 20.3 (6.3)
Tires front 275/35 ZR18
Tires rear 345/30 ZR19


Engine



Type 90° V10 - aluminum block & heads
Valvetrain OHV 2-valve/cyl.; pushrod actuated
Displacement [cc] 8277
Bore & Stroke [mm] 102.4 x 100.6
Compression Ratio 9.6:1
Redline [rpm] 6000

Max. Power [Bhp at rpm] 500 at 5600
Max. Torque [lb-ft (Nm) at rpm] 525 (712) at 4200
Bhp/Liter 60.4


Accomodation



Seating Capacity 2
Front Head Room [in. (mm)] 36.5 (926)
Front Leg Room [in. (mm)] 42.4 (1077)


Interior Noise



Idle in neutral [dBA] NA
70 mph coasting [dBA] NA


Gear Ratios



1st 2.66:1
2nd 1.78:1
3rd 1.30:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.74:1
6th 0.50:1
Final drive 3.07:1


Suspension



Front Unequal-length upper and lower A-arms, coil springs, anti-roll bar, gas-charged shocks
Rear Unequal-length upper and lower A-arms, coil springs, anti-roll bar, gas-charged shocks


Braking



Front - Brakes 14.0 in. (355 mm) vented discs
Rear - Brakes 14.0 in. (355 mm) vented discs
70 - 0 mph [ft (m)] NA
60 - 0 mph [ft (m)] NA


Performance*



0 - 60 mph [secs] 4.0
0 - 100 mph [secs] 9.3
1/4 mile [secs at mph] 12.0 at 115

Top Speed [mph] 190+
Lateral acceleration [g] NA

Fuel Economy [City/Hwy in mpg] 10 / 20





2002 Chevrolet Corvette

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model Lineup: Coupe ($41,210); Convertible ($47,735); Z06 Hardtop ($49,910)
Engines: 350-hp 5.7-liter ohv V8 (LS1); 385-hp 5.7-liter ohv V8 (LS6)
Transmissions: 6-speed manual; 4-speed automatic
Safety Equipment (standard): dual airbags, ABS, Active Handling
Safety Equipment (optional): N/A
Basic Warranty: 3 years/36,000 miles
Assembled In: Bowling Green, Kentucky

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Specifications as Tested

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model Coupe Z06


General Information



Price [$US] from $41,000 (Get the latest price here)

Layout front-engine / rear-wheel-drive
Drag Coefficient [cd] 0.29 0.31
Curb Weight [lb (kg)] 3215 (1460) 3115 (1415)
Weight Distribution [%f / r] 53 / 47
Trunk Space [cu ft. (L)] 24.8 13.3

Overall Length [in. (mm)] 179.7 (4565)
Overall Width [in. (mm)] 73.6 (1869)
Overall Height [in. (mm)] 47.7 (1211)
Wheelbase [in. (mm)] 104.5 (2656)
Track Front [in. (mm)] 61.9 (1572) 62.4 (1585)
Track Rear [in. (mm)] 62 (1575) 62.6 (1590)

Steering Rack & Pinion; Power assisted, Magna Steer
Turning Radius [ft. (m)] 19.7 (6.0) 21.1 (6.5)
Tires front 245/45 ZR17 265/40 ZR17
Tires rear 275/40 ZR18 295/35 ZR18


Engine



Type LS1 - V8 - alu b&h** LS6 - V8 - alu b&h**
Valvetrain OHV 2valve/cyl.
Displacement [cc] 5665
Bore & Stroke [mm] 99.0 x 92.0
Compression Ratio 10.1:1 10.5:1
Redline [rpm] 6000 6500

Max. Power [Bhp at rpm] 350 at 5200 405 at 6000
Max. Torque [lb-ft (Nm) at rpm] 375 (508) at 4400 400 (542) at 4800
Bhp/Liter 61.8 71.5


Accomodation



Seating Capacity 2
Front Head Room [in. (mm)] 37.9 (963) 37.8 (960)
Front Leg Room [in. (mm)] 42.7 (1085)


Interior Noise



Idle in neutral [dBA] NA 67
70 mph coasting [dBA] NA 78


Gear Ratios



1st 2.66:1 2.97:1
2nd 1.78:1 2.07:1
3rd 1.30:1 1.43:1
4th 1.00:1 1.00:1
5th 0.74:1 0.84:1
6th 0.50:1 0.56:1
Final drive 3.42:1 3.42:1


Suspension



Front independent; upper & lower A-arms, transverse composite spring, tube shocks, anti-roll bar
Rear independent; upper & lower A-arms, toe links, transverse composite spring, anti-roll bar


Braking



Front - Brakes 12.6 in. (320 mm) vented discs
Rear - Brakes 11.8 in. (300 mm) vented discs
70 - 0 mph [ft (m)] 162 (50.3)
60 - 0 mph [ft (m)] 123 (38.2) 116 (36.0)


Performance*



0 - 60 mph [secs] 4.5 4.3
0 - 100 mph [secs] 11.7 9.9
1/4 mile [secs at mph] 13.1 at 111 12.7 at 112.1

Top Speed [mph] 162 171
Lateral acceleration [g] 0.92 0.97

Fuel Economy [City/Hwy in mpg] 19 / 28


Allow me to inform you, I can find more American muscle that will hammer you little turd EVO.

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by BlkCamaroSS

Since he likes to compare old to new, how about comparing the Evo to a Yenko Camaro, one with a 427 that ran high 11's off the show room floor, and that was with the outdated rubber.

P.S. I'm waiting for the generalized "that's more displacement/if I had the same amount of money, I could be faster than that" b.s...

There is no replacment for displacment.

It easier to make more power with more cubic inchs, and that is pure fact. There is no disputing that.

[dcatkin]

Originally Posted by dcatkin

Here are just a few specs on the F50 does your EVO kill this also, GENERAL
Make Ferrari Model F50
Engine Layout mid-engine/RWD Price $500,000
ENGINE
Type 4699cc V-12 Power 513bhp @ 8500RPM
Torque 347ft-lbs @ 6500RPM Redline ??????
Bore 3.3in/85mm Stroke 2.72in/69mm
Displacement 4688cc/286.6cu-in Compression Ratio 11.3:1
POWER TRAIN
Type Transverse mid-engine/ RWD Transmission V-12
GEAR RATIOS (:1)
1st 2.79 5th 1.11
2nd 2.00 6th 0.90
3rd 1.59 Reverse ??????
4th 1.32 Final Drive 3.70
DIMENSIONS
Wheelbase 101.6in/2581mm Length 176.4in/4481mm
Height 44.1in/1120mm Width 78.2in/1986mm
Curb Weight 2710lbs/1229kgs Drag (CD) ??????
Weight Distribution (F/R) ?????? Track (F/R) 63.8in/63.1in
1621mm/1603mm
PERFORMANCE
Top Speed 203mph/327kph 0-30 1.8 secs
0-60 3.6 secs 1-100 8.0 secs
1/4 mile 12.1 secs EPA City/Hwy ??????

and your EVO if it's the Mitsubishi then it's a 4 door family car, that's real cool look at this http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/9931/dfan/f50full2.html



Model Line Overview

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model lineup: 360 Modena ($144,620); 360 Modena F1 ($154,550); 360 Spider ($161,475); 360 Spider F1 ($171,185)
Engines: 395-hp 3.6-liter dohc 40-valve V8
Transmissions: 6-speed automanual
Safety equipment (standard): ABS, traction control, front airbags
Safety equipment (optional): N/A
Basic warranty: 3 years/unlimited miles
Assembled in: Modena, Italy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Specifications As Tested

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model tested (MSRP): 360 Modena F1 ($154,550)
Standard equipment: power windows, mirrors and door locks, air conditioning, leather seating surfaces, AM/FM stereo/CD, adjustable shocks, xenon headlights, traction control
Options as tested (MSRP): N/A
Destination charge: ($1350)
Gas guzzler tax: N/A
Price as tested (MSRP): $155,900
Layout: mid-engine/rear-wheel drive
Engine: 3.6-liter dohc 40-valve V8
Horsepower (hp @ rpm): 395 @ 8500
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm): 275 @ 4750
Transmission: 6-speed automanual
EPA fuel economy, city/hwy: 11/16 mpg
Wheelbase: 102.3 in.
Length/width/height: 176.3/75.7/47.8 in.
Track, f/r: 65.7/63.7 in.
Turning circle: 35.4 ft.
Seating capacity: 2
Head/hip/leg room, f: 36.5/NA/46.5 in.
Head/hip/leg room, m: N/A
Head/hip/leg room, r: N/A
Cargo volume: 8.0 cu. ft.
Payload: N/A
Towing capacity: N/A
Suspension, f: Independent
Suspension, r: Independent
Ground clearance: 4.2 in.
Curb weight: 3291 lbs.
Tires: P215/45ZR-18 / P275/40ZR-18
Brakes, f/r: disc/disc with ABS
Fuel capacity: 25.1 gal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Italian cars are the only other cars that I respect like I do American Muscle, look at the specs and it's for obvous reasons.

David C. Atkin

Editor

http://hp-car.com

American muscle was never built to economize with

I'm not dising your Japanese stuff either, but just think befroe you talk, because I can find cars that will perform right with if not better then the EVO, and don't by any means compare it to Italian cars for road handling because it can't win.