Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online!
Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! 
-
Latest | 0 Rplys
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Ferrari > General Discussion
Reply Show Printable Version Show Printable Version | Email this Page Email this Page | Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-30-2003, 04:46 PM   #1
SDSCAN
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Question Ferrari: a piece of junk behind an expensive badge?


I'd like to know if any of the forum members could help me.
First, the facts about Ferrari, BMW, and AUDI Warranties (taken from public Web sites):

Ferrari:

1. Warranty: The 360 Modena has a three year unlimited mileage warranty. The 456 and 550 have a two year unlimited mileage warranty.

2. Annual typical maintenance costs for a new Ferrari:

1st Year - 5,000 miles $1,200 - Annual Service
2nd Year - 10,000 miles $2,200 - Annual & Rear Tires
3rd Year - 15,000 miles $2,500 - 15,000 & Front Tires
4th Year - 20,000 miles $2,200 - Annual & Rear Tires plus $1,700 Clutch (if necessary)
Major Service - 30,000 miles $6,500 -$7,500 - Depending on the model.

BMW: The BMW Full Maintenance program provides superior service by expert technicians at all authorized BMW centers in the U.S. for 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first.

AUDI: Audi Owner Protection goes far beyond a new car limited warranty good for 4 years or 80,000 kilometres. It also covers an industry leading 12 years of corrosion perforation protection. Only those who build cars this well dare to back them so comprehensively.

Now, the questions:
It looks to me that the heavy maintenance costs for a typical Ferrari will happen after the 3rd year, when the warranty is gone. Also, if the car is not raced, why the 30k major service would be needed?

Given the pricetag for a Ferrari, I think a 3 year warranty is just pathetic (not to mention the 2 year for the 456 and 550). If their cars are so great, why not go beyond the 4 years that BMW and AUDI offer?

I think the phrase taken from the AUDI site tells a lot: "Only those who build cars this well dare to back them so comprehensively."

Hoping that someone can prove me wrong, SDSCAN
SDSCAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2003, 05:37 PM   #2
Porsche
Pretty much amazing
 
Porsche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Fredericton
Posts: 3,764
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Send a message via MSN to Porsche
Well, in order to justify what's behind the badge, look at some of the following facts about Ferraris.

- Ferraris is a very low volume manufacturer compared to BMW or Audi, a great deal of the parts that amke a Ferrari are handmade, and hand assembled, the first cost driving factor of service and intital cost.

- When a Ferrari does require service, these parts have to be made (They don't have truckloads of spares lying around, and even if they did it's still got to be made by hand). Once they do get the parts, you need a liscensed mechanic to install parts or perform any work on the car.

In addition to this fact, dealers generally don't sell Ferraris in volumes anywhere near that of BMW or any other company save Lamborghini, Aston Martin and RR/Bentley. The dealers need to still make money off something and I'm making an asusmption here that dealers can gouge owners with rediculous maintenance costs since there are few places where the maintenance can be performed and it just makes sense for the dealers to use this as a source of profit since sale probably don't bring in a whole lot.

- To start out with, Ferraris are very high performance machines, even comapred to a BMW or Audi. These machines require constant attention to keep them in top shape. I'm assuming that the majority of owners are aware of this fact and buy these cars knowing that the service will end up costing more than a much more reliable 'bahn burner after a few years.

- Back to Ferrari being a low volume manufacturer, they pre sell all of their cars wether it is to delaers or private owners. Regardless, each Ferrari has a home before it leaves the line. When yoare a comapny in this situation, you do not need to offer an agressive warranty since the cars will sell regardless. Sure a 4 + year warranty would be nice, but it's just not needed, and it would end up costing Ferrari a fair bit given the amounts of service they require.

In the end, Ferraris are expsenive at birth and death and all the years in between, it's passion that sells these cars, not warranties passion that keeps them on the road and tracks.

Hope that answered your question.
__________________


ec437 on grammar;
Quote:
Originally Posted by ec437
I'd've
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2strokebloke
Any car built by "Dr. Technology" is probably not worth $5000
Porsche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2003, 02:06 PM   #3
Veyron
AF Fanatic
 
Veyron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,691
Thanks: 8
Thanked 73 Times in 67 Posts
A side note, Mercedes spends 50% of it's profits on American sales on warranty work.
__________________
There is a lesson in every kit.
Veyron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2003, 08:19 AM   #4
CraigFL
AF Regular
 
CraigFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 458
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
It sounds like you're not a candidate for a Ferrari. Peoples tastes are different and that's why they make so many different kinds of cars. Ferraris are a unique high performance type of vehicle that only some of us actually want to own. I do all my own service so that the maintenance costs are significantly less. Anyone who has owned a racecar can understand these type of costs
CraigFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 01:09 PM   #5
SDSCAN
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Red face

Craig, thanks for your reply.

In my original post, I was refering to the 360 Modena model and
not to Ferraris in general.

In my mind, when you say "Anyone who has owned a racecar can understand these type of costs", I see an 333SP, F40/F50 but not a 360.

I know that a 360 has to be modified before it can race, the same
way a BMW, Audi, or Corvette also need to be.

In my opinion, most of the people buying a 360 don't even get
close to the race track and drive them on the great NA highways.

Unless race cars now come with standard air conditioning and 6 CD changer, a standard 360 is not a race car in my view. It is a high end sports car.

This way, I'd expect at least the same level of warranty of any other high end sports car. If Ferrari offers less, at least to me, it sounds that they are not so sure of how well built their cars are.

What I am definitely not ready for is to spend $150K plus for a nice yellow badge with a black horse.

Thanks again, SDSCAN.
SDSCAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 04:56 PM   #6
CraigFL
AF Regular
 
CraigFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 458
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
But the point is --- You can race it, right off the street. This is a car that has all the high performance goodies on it right from the factory. You don't need to add much extra. But, because of the high performance/racing aspect, it needs to be treated like a racecar. It get serviced more often, it needs parts an attention more often and most real owners love to do it. You may think a 360 is a high end sports car (and it is!) but you would be suprised how many owners put them out on the track too. A larger percentage of Ferrari owners track their cars than Porsche owners --- so thats why Porsches are designed for the street and Ferraris aren't....
CraigFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 05:15 PM   #7
EPVQ30
AF Regular
 
EPVQ30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: beantown, Massachusetts
Posts: 250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
it is all relative to how much money you make.. a brother in the inner city that buys a lemon hyundai that has to bring in his hoopty to the dealer for repairs a lot more than Michael Jordan has to bring his F55 in for repairs. the money spent on service by both balances out to their anual income.
did that make sense?
__________________
SHIFT_99 SE-L 3 pedals

EPVQ30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 07:43 AM   #8
CraigFL
AF Regular
 
CraigFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 458
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally posted by EPVQ30
it is all relative to how much money you make.. a brother in the inner city that buys a lemon hyundai that has to bring in his hoopty to the dealer for repairs a lot more than Michael Jordan has to bring his F55 in for repairs. the money spent on service by both balances out to their anual income.
did that make sense?
But, are we talking REPAIRS (things that break that shouldn't break) or are we talking SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE?
CraigFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 12:25 PM   #9
SDSCAN
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


In my original discussion topic I was trying to figure out 2 things:

1. Possible reasons why the 360 warranty is only 3 years when the heavy SCHEDULED maintenance starts after that.

2. Reasons why Ferrari offers only 3 years for a 360, when other high-end sports car makers offer more.

I was not worried about REPAIR related issues.

I think both points, under 1 and 2 above, have been very well explored by both CraigFL and Porsche, as per their responses.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem if someone wants to explore another angle, as I think EPVQ30 is doing.

Thanks so far for the insightful replies, SDSCAN
SDSCAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 01:07 PM   #10
SDSCAN
AF Newbie
Thread starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Red face

Quote:
Originally posted by CraigFL
But the point is --- You can race it, right off the street. This is a car that has all the high performance goodies on it right from the factory. You don't need to add much extra. But, because of the high performance/racing aspect, it needs to be treated like a racecar. It get serviced more often, it needs parts an attention more often and most real owners love to do it. You may think a 360 is a high end sports car (and it is!) but you would be suprised how many owners put them out on the track too. A larger percentage of Ferrari owners track their cars than Porsche owners --- so thats why Porsches are designed for the street and Ferraris aren't....
Craig, I'd like to explore a particular piece of your quote, where you state "so thats why Porsches are designed for the street and Ferraris aren't".

I beg to disagree and I'd say Ferraris WERE designed for the race track, back when Mr. Enzo Ferrari was still alive. These days, unless I am dead wrong, Ferrari is run by some FIAT suits where a piece of it has been sold to GM.

Trying to substanciate what I am saying above, I've got on this link (http://www.motorsportsetc.com/champs/le_mans.htm) some statistics regarding the 24 Hours of Le Mans winners. If you check this link, Ferraris were big winners in the past, but recently I can see mostly Audi, BMW, and Porsches winning. Ferrari last won this race back in 1965.

Bottom line: It was said that Ferraris are designed for the race track while others, such as Porsche, are designed for the street. The statistics in the (http://www.motorsportsetc.com/champs/le_mans.htm) site show the opposite, at the least from 1965 on.

All this, to me, emphasizes that a 360 is being charged much more than it is worth. It is a high-end sports car that people can play with at race tracks, with a race car maintenance price tag, but is not designed for serious races, as the statistics seem to show.

Again, I'd guess that at least 50% of the price paid for a 360 goes to the badge and the glorious past behind it.

That has been my point from the begining.

I'd just like to make clear that I don't have any problems at all with whoever decides to spend its money that way.

Please don't get me wrong, SDSCAN
SDSCAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 03:27 PM   #11
Neutrino
Yaya Master
 
Neutrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 7,152
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Neutrino
fact is that with a bmw or audi even all you get is fast sedans.....with a ferrari you get a true sports car
__________________

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination
Neutrino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 03:49 PM   #12
CraigFL
AF Regular
 
CraigFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 458
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally posted by SDSCAN


Craig, I'd like to explore a particular piece of your quote, where you state "so thats why Porsches are designed for the street and Ferraris aren't".

I beg to disagree and I'd say Ferraris WERE designed for the race track, back when Mr. Enzo Ferrari was still alive. These days, unless I am dead wrong, Ferrari is run by some FIAT suits where a piece of it has been sold to GM.

Trying to substanciate what I am saying above, I've got on this link (http://www.motorsportsetc.com/champs/le_mans.htm) some statistics regarding the 24 Hours of Le Mans winners. If you check this link, Ferraris were big winners in the past, but recently I can see mostly Audi, BMW, and Porsches winning. Ferrari last won this race back in 1965.

Bottom line: It was said that Ferraris are designed for the race track while others, such as Porsche, are designed for the street. The statistics in the (http://www.motorsportsetc.com/champs/le_mans.htm) site show the opposite, at the least from 1965 on.

All this, to me, emphasizes that a 360 is being charged much more than it is worth. It is a high-end sports car that people can play with at race tracks, with a race car maintenance price tag, but is not designed for serious races, as the statistics seem to show.

Again, I'd guess that at least 50% of the price paid for a 360 goes to the badge and the glorious past behind it.

That has been my point from the begining.

I'd just like to make clear that I don't have any problems at all with whoever decides to spend its money that way.

Please don't get me wrong, SDSCAN
I know what your saying but my point was that if you look at all the Porsches and Ferraris that are on the street, my guess is that a larger percentage of the Ferraris are tracked. Ferrari knows this and designs the cars to do this (See the Challenge series). Where as, many more Porsches -- both in number and percentages are just driven on the street.

As for the 360 not designed for serious racing.... Just because the factory doesn't campaign a car doesn't mean it isn't racing quality material. This year there is increased use of the 550/575 that is very competitive and someone just needs to take the time to work on the 360. Even the Porsches didn't win right out of the box.

As far as the cost of Ferraris, people pay what they think the value is. $170K Spiders were selling for $250K in the beginning. It's the law of supply and demand. And people pay for that glorious past -- What about Michael S and F1? That sells a lot of cars and that's not too far in the past!
CraigFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 04:09 PM   #13
Porsche
Pretty much amazing
 
Porsche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Fredericton
Posts: 3,764
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Send a message via MSN to Porsche
Quote:
Originally posted by CraigFL


I know what your saying but my point was that if you look at all the Porsches and Ferraris that are on the street, my guess is that a larger percentage of the Ferraris are tracked. Ferrari knows this and designs the cars to do this (See the Challenge series). Where as, many more Porsches -- both in number and percentages are just driven on the street.

As for the 360 not designed for serious racing.... Just because the factory doesn't campaign a car doesn't mean it isn't racing quality material. This year there is increased use of the 550/575 that is very competitive and someone just needs to take the time to work on the 360. Even the Porsches didn't win right out of the box.

As far as the cost of Ferraris, people pay what they think the value is. $170K Spiders were selling for $250K in the beginning. It's the law of supply and demand. And people pay for that glorious past -- What about Michael S and F1? That sells a lot of cars and that's not too far in the past!
Very well explained Craig!

I'm also happy to see the introduction of the 360 Stradale, which is a beefed up 360 that can comptete successfully in serious racing. Everybody who hasn't heard of it should looki t up, if you thinkt he regular 360 is a great car, this thing ups the ante.

As for the supply and demand bit, I think that the entire market for these cars is based on this simple economic principle. It's really quite scary when you see a magazine or reputable source quote the 550 Barchetta being around 200K and then you see DP registry selling them for upwards of 350K. Then again, it's passion that drives the buyer, not price hence the reason you don't see too many Ferraris for sale for too long.
__________________


ec437 on grammar;
Quote:
Originally Posted by ec437
I'd've
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2strokebloke
Any car built by "Dr. Technology" is probably not worth $5000
Porsche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 06:22 PM   #14
Kerbie
AF Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 144
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: Ferrari: a piece of junk behind an expensive badge?

Quote:
Originally posted by SDSCAN

I'd like to know if any of the forum members could help me.
First, the facts about Ferrari, BMW, and AUDI Warranties (taken from public Web sites):

Ferrari:

1. Warranty: The 360 Modena has a three year unlimited mileage warranty. The 456 and 550 have a two year unlimited mileage warranty.

2. Annual typical maintenance costs for a new Ferrari:

1st Year - 5,000 miles $1,200 - Annual Service
2nd Year - 10,000 miles $2,200 - Annual & Rear Tires
3rd Year - 15,000 miles $2,500 - 15,000 & Front Tires
4th Year - 20,000 miles $2,200 - Annual & Rear Tires plus $1,700 Clutch (if necessary)
Major Service - 30,000 miles $6,500 -$7,500 - Depending on the model.

BMW: The BMW Full Maintenance program provides superior service by expert technicians at all authorized BMW centers in the U.S. for 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first.

AUDI: Audi Owner Protection goes far beyond a new car limited warranty good for 4 years or 80,000 kilometres. It also covers an industry leading 12 years of corrosion perforation protection. Only those who build cars this well dare to back them so comprehensively.

Now, the questions:
It looks to me that the heavy maintenance costs for a typical Ferrari will happen after the 3rd year, when the warranty is gone. Also, if the car is not raced, why the 30k major service would be needed?

Given the pricetag for a Ferrari, I think a 3 year warranty is just pathetic (not to mention the 2 year for the 456 and 550). If their cars are so great, why not go beyond the 4 years that BMW and AUDI offer?

I think the phrase taken from the AUDI site tells a lot: "Only those who build cars this well dare to back them so comprehensively."

Hoping that someone can prove me wrong, SDSCAN

OK for starters, you have compared 3 companies here. Audi and BMW are both worthy to be compared but Ferrari is in a whole other league.
BMW and Audi are 2 companies that have a very large output. Everything that they make is mass produced and as far as i know everything is made by machines. Ferraris on the other hand are exotic italian cars made by hand. They're yearly output is a fraction of what BMW and Audi make.

Sure BMW and Audi are 2 companies that make high performance sport sedans. They have very good cars and they perform ecceptionally, but... they are no match for ferrari.

Ferrari can put whatever kind of warranty that they want. The cars would still sell with a 1 year warranty. Fact of the matter is that the majority of people forking out $200 000+ are not all that worried about getting a multi year warranty.

3rd point, italian car companies have had major monitary issues in the past. Why would ferrari risk draining they're profits by covering more years of service and costing tens of thousands of dolltars per car. They would end up like detomasso and how lamborghini almost ended up. Dead in the watter.

Just because a company decides to not carry as comprehensive of a warranty as competitors, does not mean that they dont stand by thier product. it just means that they dont have the resources to do so.

Kerbie
__________________


Why can't everyone just drive a supercar. Then we would all have peace. Maybe not.
Kerbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2003, 02:25 AM   #15
Neutrino
Yaya Master
 
Neutrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 7,152
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Neutrino
Re: Re: Ferrari: a piece of junk behind an expensive badge?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kerbie



OK for starters, you have compared 3 companies here. Audi and BMW are both worthy to be compared but Ferrari is in a whole other league.
BMW and Audi are 2 companies that have a very large output. Everything that they make is mass produced and as far as i know everything is made by machines. Ferraris on the other hand are exotic italian cars made by hand. They're yearly output is a fraction of what BMW and Audi make.

Sure BMW and Audi are 2 companies that make high performance sport sedans. They have very good cars and they perform ecceptionally, but... they are no match for ferrari.

Ferrari can put whatever kind of warranty that they want. The cars would still sell with a 1 year warranty. Fact of the matter is that the majority of people forking out $200 000+ are not all that worried about getting a multi year warranty.

3rd point, italian car companies have had major monitary issues in the past. Why would ferrari risk draining they're profits by covering more years of service and costing tens of thousands of dolltars per car. They would end up like detomasso and how lamborghini almost ended up. Dead in the watter.

Just because a company decides to not carry as comprehensive of a warranty as competitors, does not mean that they dont stand by thier product. it just means that they dont have the resources to do so.

Kerbie
__________________

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination
Neutrino is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why men assurance are more expensive serge_saati Cars in General 0 07-31-2009 06:39 PM
piece of junk! jennner Camry/Camry Hybrid/Vista 8 02-08-2005 05:44 AM
Piece of junk explorer! Debunny Explorer | Explorer Sport Trac 8 03-24-2004 07:54 PM
93 SI, piece of Junk? LADYSOL '92-'95 Civic | EL | Civic Hybrid | Civic GX NGV 9 06-22-2003 10:12 AM
Corvette is the biggest piece of junk on the road! psycovette Corvette 15 08-22-2001 05:25 PM

Reply

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD


Bookmarks
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Ferrari > General Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:44 PM.

Community Participation Guidelines | How to use your User Control Panel

Powered by: vBulletin | Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
 
 
no new posts