Disappointed

[ducati996]

Good point Gravitom.

SpyVO
If you're comparing hp per $, why pay 26K+ for new a Z28(SS), TransAm, or Cobra, when you can build a 450+ hp drag car for under 15K, or a crotch rocket for less then 10K. There are other reasons why people buy Camaro, Mustang, and 350Z. That's why GM release the Z28 and the TransAm, which is basically the same car but different trim.

I will be trading in my Mustang for the 350Z, and will probably get picked on by faster cars like the Z28, TransAm, and Cobras. That's ok, because my Ducati got some new rubber to burn.

[SpyVO]

No, no, no, it wasn't a hp/$ comparison, really. It's more about what you get for your money in general. What I was saying is that for what it is and what it can do, I personally think that a Mustang GT is a better value. $21,500 for a pretty much loaded 5 speed GT and $26,809 for a base 350Z, and when you compare the numbers, the 350Z is NOT "$5,000 better", if I may put it that way. I know you could build a faster race car for less, but the comparison I was making was new cars that you can buy today that have similar purposes and capabilities (STOCK), with a warranty. I'm trying my best to make an honest apples-to-apples comparison. When comparing the 350Z to other cars in that way, I fail to see why it's being called a great value. It is a cool car, of course, and it has the newness thing going for it. And we will eventually see how the market treats it. And we all must admit that as car enthusiasts, it's really a godsend in a way since the f-bodies got the axe. There's a new player in town, and that helps the hobby thrive as a whole. This is good! Otherwise Ford could say, "Why bring out the guns when there's no battle?"

As for the hypothetical motocycle theory: well as long as we're playing could's and would's, I'd dump that 15k you mentioned into a GMC Syclone or a Buick GN, and if I COULDN'T beat you, I WOULD at least keep up with you. A longshot, YES, but it HAS happened, right?

[ducati996]

SpyVO (Special Vehicle Operations)?

I agree. For the perfromance, Mustangs, Z28 are better bang for the buck, but not better value. Build quality, relaibility, depreciation, and supply/demand determines the value of the car.
I love my Mustang, but at 86k miles, it's beginning to fall apart. My prior vehicle (Nissan Truck) runs great into 120K+ miles. From my experience and what I've read, the 350Z is a better build car then my Ford. So I think the 350Z is well worth the money for the performance and quality. The Altima and the Corola is what I consider a great value.

I wasn't making any performance comparison between a car and a motorcycle. Just that if V8 picks on V6, i'll still have my 996.
And yes, any car that can do under 10 sec in 1/4 mile can beat most street bikes, but that would usually be define as drag cars.

[SpyVO]

I dunno... I have a hard time buying into the whole build quality thing. I think it's kinda like splitting hairs out of desperation. I think how a car lasts depends entirely on it's owner. I own 2 Mustangs right now. One is an 84 which has 91k. The other is an 86 with 186k. According to your reasoning, the 84 should be in MUCH better condition, right? And they should BOTH be falling apart, too!

I work at a large car auction, and I see all kinds of cars, hundreds of different ones every week. I see domestic cars that are beat, and foreign cars that are worse, and vice versa. I've seen both of them that are still pristine with very high mileage: interiors that last well, the paint stays shiny, they still function properly in every way... Despite what you may want to believe, domestic cars do not begin to fall apart as soon as they leave the factory. And foreign cars are really no better than domestic cars.

For years I've disliked foreign cars mostly because of the arrogance of their owners toward domestics. It wasn't until I really got into cars that I started to be more objective, and saw that imports actually are just as good as domestics. In the end, I came to my own decision that it's all about what you want, because better than 9 times out of 10, whatever you're driving is GOING TO get you there. So does it matter where it was made? Personally, I can't see how it could or would.

And you also can't say that the Z will have better build quality than your Mustang based on something you've read because there are NO 350Zs with 86k miles on them!!

If you can be objective, I think you'll find that it really is all about what you want.

[catjogo]

What's with you guys? This isn't a pissing contest against cars.
There's a car available to you now that's sophisticated, fast, and at a reasonable price. Ala, S2000, Boxter.
I don't care if some American cars are faster, so what? They are still junk!

[malibubong]

Originally posted by SpyVO
Despite what you may want to believe, domestic cars do not begin to fall apart as soon as they leave the factory. And foreign cars are really no better than domestic cars.

Think what you want bud, but just because your biased towards mustangs doesnt make you an expert. There are a ton of parts in your ford cars made all over the world that are swaps with import cars (Mazda). No matter how you slice it, the 350Z slapped the GT Stang's 0-60 time in Motor Trend and Car and Driver. Just because you can beat those times on your 1/4 mile track doesnt mean that everyone can furthermore, it doesnt mean that a good driver couldnt get the 1/4 time for the Z well under 14. HP to HP the Z flat out beats the mustang, get out of your fantasy world. The 350Z was not designed to be an american supercar buster. It cant beat a viper, vette or cobra, there is no possible way it could with some fantastic hookups. As far as the GT, you know my thoughts. The Z28 would be a close race, I would give the Z28 a nod for hp and would more times than not with evenly matched drivers beat the Z. Most drivers arent experts and I would say that both cars are really evenly matched. Understand that it (the Z) was designed to take market share away from the porsche boxster and 911 (Forbes) not amarican cars. As I have mentioned before, does this show you anything? Why would Nissan pit the 350 up against a porsche? 2 reasons: 1) besides the vette and viper, american auto makers dont have a 2 seater coupe and you cannot expect a Z to compete with a Viper or Vette 2) Porsche is recognized for making a high performance luxurios sports car. (NewsWeek) American autos arent recognized for their luxury to the average buyer.

[Z06Lover]

i wanna chime in here!1
i have a S2000 by the way...so i'm on the far end of this conversation away from the LS1 camaro, mustang, and even the Z.

I love my car, but am not a retard. I know for a fact that if i wanted to build a serious road course car or drag car for cheap a mustang is the way to go. As a drag car it is just obvious

As a road course car it isn't so obvious, but that is just because there is just a lack of knowledge out there about what makes a car fast on a road course. With a full griggs suspension some engine modifications a 5.0 mustang can be made to kick some serious ass on even the twistiest courses for cheap. It may not have the "feel" of a NSX, but it will have the feeling of lapping them. That is not to say a NSX can't be made very fast..it just costs a whole lot more.

But, I didn't buy my S2000 as a race car. I bought it because for the money (stock for stock) it had a lot of things I wanted. It is fairly quick, great handling (stock it handles much better then a stock mustang or F-body), look nice, convertible, no cowl shake, no noticeable body roll, and holds it's own on the track for a stock car. The price was right too...that is why i didn't get the Z06.

It isn't really the same thing to argue about why a modified fox body or F-body is a better deal then a new Z. The Z is a much nicer car in many ways, then either of those cars, but it isn't as fast..oh well!!

[malibubong]

Originally posted by Z06Lover
The Z is a much nicer car in many ways, then either of those cars, but it isn't as fast..oh well!!

Where is your proof that it's not a s fast? Is this your opinion? do you have slips or know of someone who does on a Z? Bottom line, 2 car mags rated the GT stang at 6.0, thats about 100 runs averaged in with a driver who knows how to drive better than the average person. Motor trend rated the Z28 at 5.5 and C&D rated it at 5.2. That averages at 5.35. The Z is looking at 5.4 in Car and Driver, I know of no other resource to quote the 0-60 times on the Z. I can quote you tyimes on the Z28 and GT stang from Old Dominion Speedway in Manassas VA from everyday drivers like most of us posting slips a few tenths of a second slower than that in the mags. Vettes, cobras, SS, etc have muscle to blow a Z out of the water. A stock Z for the money is a good buy, not to say its better than then a stock Z28 or GT its a good buy in its own world. On that note, you can get Boxster, 911 etc interior in a $30000 Z car. You cant get that kind of refinement in any Z28 or GT stang. A good friend of mine had a 96 Z28. It was a powerful car, good muscle for the money but inside it was nothing to be desired. On that note, for style and looks...would you rather drive through South Beach Miami in a stock Z28 or GT stang or new Z car? I would wager that the guy in the Z would get many more looks, and could get the possible number for latenite nanny!!!hahah Hey, everybody put your votes in for that.

1 for the Z.

HHH

[Z06Lover]

Originally posted by malibubong


Where is your proof that it's not a s fast? Is this your opinion? do you have slips or know of someone who does on a Z? Bottom line, 2 car mags rated the GT stang at 6.0, thats about 100 runs averaged in with a driver who knows how to drive better than the average person. Motor trend rated the Z28 at 5.5 and C&D rated it at 5.2. That averages at 5.35. The Z is looking at 5.4 in Car and Driver, I know of no other resource to quote the 0-60 times on the Z. I can quote you tyimes on the Z28 and GT stang from Old Dominion Speedway in Manassas VA from everyday drivers like most of us posting slips a few tenths of a second slower than that in the mags. Vettes, cobras, SS, etc have muscle to blow a Z out of the water. A stock Z for the money is a good buy, not to say its better than then a stock Z28 or GT its a good buy in its own world. On that note, you can get Boxster, 911 etc interior in a $30000 Z car. You cant get that kind of refinement in any Z28 or GT stang. A good friend of mine had a 96 Z28. It was a powerful car, good muscle for the money but inside it was nothing to be desired. On that note, for style and looks...would you rather drive through South Beach Miami in a stock Z28 or GT stang or new Z car? I would wager that the guy in the Z would get many more looks, and could get the possible number for latenite nanny!!!hahah Hey, everybody put your votes in for that.

1 for the Z.

HHH

did you even read my post? No, you took one quote and then took it completely out of context. I was talking about if you wanted to make a race car it is much cheaper and easier to use a F-body or Fox body mustang. No where did I ever say a stock Z can't run with a stock 4.6 liter mustang GT. I actually never even mentioned that car. Thanks for all the wonderful magazine specs..gotta love those!

The thread here was mostly about easy it was to modify the mustang or F-body to make it faster and how that was a reason to buy it over the Z. I was saying that all of that was true, but people buy cars for different reasons. Then I proceeded to give why I bought my S2000 as an example. Please read posts and understand them before you post one gigantic paragraph of gibberish.

Just so you know...it is not going to torch the 2002 mustang GT in the 1/4 mile. get your head out of stupid magazines and actually watch people race sometime...or even better..do it yourself. The mustang GT has a solid axle and a fairly soft suspension with a good amount of travel. This allows it too hook up very well. I have personally seen a GT run a 13.66 and have seen slips on the internet. If you go to corral.net someone can show you one. People may be able to extract more from the Z...we don't know yet, but it won't be much more if any.

Trap speed is much more consistent. The GT is running around 99-102 mph which is close to what magazines are getting for the Z. Expect them to be very close in performance. As far as handling the fully independent multi-link suspension of the Z gives it and advantage over the GT, but it is about as heavy and is still somewhat nose heavy. It doesn't have a 50/50 weight distribution like my S2000, Z06, or the pre -2001 M3. It should be a nice handling car, but it seems like it understeers too much. I can let you know when i drive one.

Sorry to harsh on you, but i get tired of people not reading what is posted and then taking it out of context.

[malibubong]

Originally posted by Z06Lover

Trap speed is much more consistent. The GT is running around 99-102 mph which is close to what magazines are getting for the Z. Expect them to be very close in performance. As far as handling the fully independent multi-link suspension of the Z gives it and advantage over the GT, but it is about as heavy and is still somewhat nose heavy. It doesn't have a 50/50 weight distribution like my S2000, Z06, or the pre -2001 M3. It should be a nice handling car, but it seems like it understeers too much. I can let you know when i drive one.

Sorry to harsh on you, but i get tired of people not reading what is posted and then taking it out of context.

Yeah, I guess Nismo is just some crack company that makes bass akwards high performance parts for cars. How can you make these assupmtions when the car hasnt even been out to the general public yet? We know what the american muscle cars can and cant do. We have some specs on the Z. This is information that can be found readily by everyone. I am telling you and everyone else on this forum that if you want to say a GT mustang on average is going to run those 13.66 in 1/4 consistently then your in your fantasy worlds again.

REad what you put, you said that the Z wasnt as fast as the other 2 aforementioned cars. If you said that those cars were modified I would understand but its not what you said. Dont get mad at people for ragging on you when what you say is incorrect or not what you really mean. Get your story straight.

You throw the Z06 and other cars in the picture too. Why? That Z06 stock will spank every car mentioned no questions asked. The M3 and S2000 arent very different from the Z car. I would venture to say that the Z has an edge on both. I am not biased either. I like Honda and BMW, but you cant let numbers slide when facts are facts.

The only reason that most of these cars are evenly matched is because of driver error, and I know you would agree with me on that. Not everyone is Michael Andretti, they would like to think so but its just not true. I will be the first to admit that the Z cant beat everything, but credit should be given where credit is due.

[merc50]

I trust Motor Trends time a bit more than C&D and someone said in another thread they hit 13.9.

That has the stang and the Bullitt, although (and I am sure many of you are gonna disagree with me) I bet the average driver will turn better times with the Bullitt over the Z in the 1/4, maybe also in the GT but its not looking like it. Sounds like its gonna be real close with a Z28 or TA...I still give them a nod but it will be interesting to say the least. I bet they really had to run the crap out of the Z to hit the 13.9, but if they did (and I doubt the numbers were made up) that is damn sweet and very impresive.

The SS, Ram Air, Mach 1, and the Cobra don't have to worry...yet.

Combine this with the fact that it really is a track type of car and you have a really great auto for the money. It is more of a threat than I thought it would be, but I still wanna see one for myself.

I would like to see the MT article the guy quoted...what modle it was etc.

I imagine most Z's in the US will be automatics and more on the lux side of things, making them fair game for a GT...but a track or stick one is gonna give stang fans hell.

I think it is great...I hope it means that the American cars will bump up the HP in a game of catch up. In an all out HP war the American cars would be able to raise the stakes and probably (OPINION) win and I want to see that...but I also want to see handling increased. I don't think will ever see a future GT that can run rings around the Z on the track, but I would like an even better match. If you bump the HP on the GT it would be really close with good straights that it could use them on.

I still can't get into a BMW, they just cost too much IMO, and I just do not like them but that is subjective. I kinda like the look of the M3, but when I priced one it was 56,000...yikes.

The S2000 to me is a neat car. I like it better than any of the other little roadster sports around right now. I never have like the Toyota based on looks and the Mazda's are neat, but not the car for me. On imports I tend to favor the Supra, WRX, soon to hit EVO, and the "I wish we had them" Skylines.

[zane11]

Got the performance times right here.

[Z06Lover]

Yeah, I guess Nismo is just some crack company that makes bass akwards high performance parts for cars. How can you make these assupmtions when the car hasnt even been out to the general public yet? We know what the american muscle cars can and cant do. We have some specs on the Z. This is information that can be found readily by everyone. I am telling you and everyone else on this forum that if you want to say a GT mustang on average is going to run those 13.66 in 1/4 consistently then your in your fantasy worlds again.


where did i say it was avg for a GT mustang to run 13.66? again try actually reading my posts...


REad what you put, you said that the Z wasnt as fast as the other 2 aforementioned cars. If you said that those cars were modified I would understand but its not what you said. Dont get mad at people for ragging on you when what you say is incorrect or not what you really mean. Get your story straight.


i was talking about modified cars the entire time. it is much cheaper and easier to modify a 5.0 mustang then a Z. I am looking at a 10 sec 5.0 mustang right now for $8500..what 1/4 of the Z are you gonna get for that money?!?!

As far as race cars go...you can get a mustang 5.0 for about $3-$6k depending on condition. i know for a fact i can make that car faster in any way then a new Z for the same money. Unless you start talking about money in the $100k range. I have a free $20k to start with. You are not going to over come that for a long time...get a grip.

I am really sorry i didn't put modified key word in the last sentance of my first post. I figured if you could read the whole post it was obvious what i was talking about...i guess it was not obvious to you..


You throw the Z06 and other cars in the picture too. Why? That Z06 stock will spank every car mentioned no questions asked. The M3 and S2000 arent very different from the Z car. I would venture to say that the Z has an edge on both. I am not biased either. I like Honda and BMW, but you cant let numbers slide when facts are facts.


again...seriously can you read an comprehend??
i said the Z06, the S2000, and the older pre 2001 M3 all have 50-50 weight distribution..no where did i say who was faster then who... shit am i the only one taking crazy pills here????

here is my quote from my last post:

It (the 350Z in this context) doesn't have a 50/50 weight distribution like my S2000, Z06, or the pre -2001 M3. It should be a nice handling car, but it seems like it understeers too much. I can let you know when i drive one.

as you can see i was only saying that it didnt have a 50/50 weight distribution like those three cars. I didn't say who had higher performance anywhere...this is what i mean when i say READ MY POSTS!!

just for the record his is the excerpt from my original post:

It isn't really the same thing to argue about why a modified fox body or F-body is a better deal then a new Z. The Z is a much nicer car in many ways, then either of those cars, but it isn't as fast..oh well!!

so i said modified in the above sentance and was comparing the Z to those two cars... i dont' think i could have made it more obvious.

[malibubong]

Originally posted by Z06Lover


Yeah, I guess Nismo is just some crack company that makes bass akwards high performance parts for cars. How can you make these assupmtions when the car hasnt even been out to the general public yet? We know what the american muscle cars can and cant do. We have some specs on the Z. This is information that can be found readily by everyone. I am telling you and everyone else on this forum that if you want to say a GT mustang on average is going to run those 13.66 in 1/4 consistently then your in your fantasy worlds again.


where did i say it was avg for a GT mustang to run 13.66? again try actually reading my posts...


REad what you put, you said that the Z wasnt as fast as the other 2 aforementioned cars. If you said that those cars were modified I would understand but its not what you said. Dont get mad at people for ragging on you when what you say is incorrect or not what you really mean. Get your story straight.


i was talking about modified cars the entire time. it is much cheaper and easier to modify a 5.0 mustang then a Z. I am looking at a 10 sec 5.0 mustang right now for $8500..what 1/4 of the Z are you gonna get for that money?!?!

As far as race cars go...you can get a mustang 5.0 for about $3-$6k depending on condition. i know for a fact i can make that car faster in any way then a new Z for the same money. Unless you start talking about money in the $100k range. I have a free $20k to start with. You are not going to over come that for a long time...get a grip.

I am really sorry i didn't put modified key word in the last sentance of my first post. I figured if you could read the whole post it was obvious what i was talking about...i guess it was not obvious to you..


You throw the Z06 and other cars in the picture too. Why? That Z06 stock will spank every car mentioned no questions asked. The M3 and S2000 arent very different from the Z car. I would venture to say that the Z has an edge on both. I am not biased either. I like Honda and BMW, but you cant let numbers slide when facts are facts.


again...seriously can you read an comprehend??
i said the Z06, the S2000, and the older pre 2001 M3 all have 50-50 weight distribution..no where did i say who was faster then who... shit am i the only one taking crazy pills here????

here is my quote from my last post:


so i said modified in the above sentance and was comparing the Z to those two cars... i dont' think i could have made it more obvious.

I have know clue what your talking about. The entire time before you started "chiming" in we were talking about "stock" car performance. You want to talk mod cars go right ahead. I could take alot of cars and mod them up to beat a 350Z stock, Z06 or any other car. I could take alot of cars and do it cheaper too. NO S#$% SHERLOCK! This is a brand new car, you think the aftermarket companies are going to produce a plethora of parts for a car thats not even out in full yet? They dont know if the car will be successful let alone if there will be a viable market share for the Z and consumer demand for the mods. Common sense tells you this. I dont know what point your trying to prove? Obviously, you have none and start spouting off how I dont read your half-brained logic.

Your comment about the Z06 and BMW etc was worthless. Why did you even say it? Are you trying to compare the Z? Are you just simply stating obvious stats? You lost me and everyone else in the forum. Pick a stance and stick to it. Dont start fiddling around backpedaling saying I dont read or comprehend your writing.

Your delusions of grandure and absolute misunderstanding of what a forum is really annoys me and I am sure everyone else who has to read it. If you want to continue this feel free to email me personally.
I think you have some valid points in what you say but you need to use complete thoughts in your reasoning. I cant read your mind. What you post is all "we" the forum collectively, have to ascertain what your trying to convey. In laymens terms, speak english senorita.

[malibubong]

Originally posted by merc50
I trust Motor Trends time a bit more than C&D and someone said in another thread they hit 13.9. That has the stang and the Bullitt, although (and I am sure many of you are gonna disagree with me) I bet the average driver will turn better times with the Bullitt over the Z in the 1/4, maybe also in the GT but its not looking like it.

Merc, why do you think that the average driver could get faster times out of a bullit or mustang than a Z? I am sure that is somewhat biased, I know how you love them bullits. I know you have to have some reasoing behind it, just curious.

HHH