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Old 05-13-2008, 10:58 AM   #16
sixseas
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Doctor Bill, I agree there are very good sources of energy available and many yet to be developed . These energy sources should have been exploited after the fuel crisis of the 1970s. Our government likely because of special interest funding chose to shelve almost every alternative until ADM lobbied heavily for its portion of the fuel dollar pushing Ethenol into our fuel system.

I donít expect any changes in the near future. They will ease us up and over $4 a gallon and go for $5 $6Ö$12 a gallon and so on. That is okay I guess if we are willing to accept a life as a servant to the Saudi Sheetheads who buy our rulers and drive our economy and make decisions on the quality of our lives.

The people who run the country, the Republicans and Democrates parties, both bought and paid to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to anything that would disrupt the Saudi oil party will try their best to keep things as they are. Note the 125 million dollar mansion Sheek Bandar just sold in Colorado and the others in Florida New York and California. The guzzler boys paid for that lavish life style while they themselves are likely still wrestling with the concept of rent or house and car payments. The oily boy party will go on given the pitiful choice of yes big oil type rulers the ruling parties have selected for us to vote for. You have a vote but like a company owned and funded union you can vote for the big oil or for big oil its your choice. Billions of dollars in funding from special interests including the big oily boys have flushed away potentially hundreds of strong competing candidates and their parties who may dare to challenge the neglect of our environment and rapidly deteriorating strength of our country.

We appear to be left to our own devices. The 1.0L power plant appears to be the most efficient reliable and practical tool we have to combat a rough future with runaway fuel prices and possible shortages.
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:33 AM   #17
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Interesting to compare the price of gas across political borders by equivalent purchasing power. For example Mexico and the US where gas is priced about the same generally speaking. A GS 12 federal agent earns $70000 annually and a Mexican federal agent earns $4500 annually gas is priced at roughly $4.00 along the northern states the after you factor out Litros vs US gallons.

The US agent earns 15.6x ($70k/$4.5k) more than the Mexican agent. That means at $4.00 per gallon the Mexican agent pays in time spent working $62.40 per gallon. Thatís why the say Icarumba all the time
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:47 PM   #18
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Yes Doc, those were all dollars per gallon. As Sixseas has pointed out, not a very good comparison if some people are making $20 per hour and some are making a nickel per hour.
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:13 PM   #19
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Now you know why the illegals are walking across the borders and not driving 4X4's across.
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Old 05-17-2008, 09:59 AM   #20
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

They drank up all the Ethenol in the Tequila now they have to hoof it. I always thought they took over this country to take our 1.0L engines and our girls and beer. Now I know they are pissed off because we stole their invention. We call a siesta a power nap that made them mad. I will be conducting extensive research on siestas and power naps to determine if we are infringing on their idea.
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Old 05-17-2008, 10:07 AM   #21
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

A friend sent me this relating to Ethenol. I still think the best defense is the 1.0L these new smart cars are 20 year old technology with a new price tag, HypeBids are just a giming to skim cash, Ethenal is an attempt to shit the gtcha from the sheetheads to ADM but at least they are domestically owned but I wonder now.

Source: CNET
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10863_7....html?tag=tnav


GM markets many of its cars as flexible fuel vehicles, meaning they can run on a fuel mixture up to 85 percent ethanol and just 15 percent gasoline, referred to as E85. Ethanol is an alcohol commonly produced from corn in the United States and sugar cane in other parts of the world. Ethanol is also widely used as an additive to gasoline. E10 is a mix of 90 percent gasoline and 10 percent ethanol, while E100 is 100 percent ethanol. Most cars can run on E10, and many state governments have mandated its use, as the 10 percent ethanol works as an oxygenate, helping the fuel burn more completely and causing fewer emissions.
GM Yukon
GM has 11 2008 models that can run on E85.

Burning ethanol as a fuel reduces carbon dioxide emissions by 21 percent over gasoline and releases no particulate matter. However, burning ethanol creates more ozone, leading to smog and potentially more respiratory health problems. Studies on ethanol emissions are ongoing. Ethanol also has less energy density than gasoline, so a car running on E85 gets worse mileage than the same car running on E10.

Another downside to ethanol is that, because the fuel is made from corn and other food crops, heavy demand for ethanol drives up food prices. Because global food prices are rising, the trade-off is problematic. Current research into cellulosic ethanol made of grasses or even trash seems poised to help ease this controversy.

In the United States, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, Mazda, and Nissan sell cars that can run on ethanol mixes up to E85. The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition hosts a map on its Web site showing the locations of E85 stations around the country.
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Old 05-17-2008, 10:47 PM   #22
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

And again why don't we try to make cars who run on methane gas or natural gas?
8 years ago at Chicago Auto Show a car caught everybody's attention it was a Dodge Challenger concept who runs on natural gas, it was breathtaking as design and performance.
Also as I stated natural gas engine is 99.9% clean, and you have almost an unlimited supply, the gas can be made from manure even garbage.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:28 AM   #23
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

The ethanol and natural gas are both jokes.

I've got a lot of GM pride but I don't think they've done a good thing investing themselves so heavily in the whole ethanol bit. Sixseas brought up a big con - fuel economy drops. And you are still going to produce carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide, as DoctorBill mentioned earlier, is released anytime you burn an organic (carbon based) compound. Not to mention ozone. If we start producing Ozone, it wont patch up the ozone layer, it wont just rise up and be this out of the way bi-product, it will stay in the air we breathe and ozone is nasty stuff.

The problem with natural gas is infrastructure. Natural gas must be stored and dispensed under pressure - compressed. Retrofitting gas stations and fuel systems in production automobiles would cost way more than its end worth as it too will produce carbon dioxide. Yes, it can be fermented (methane), but thats even more infrastructure change and cost, and the natural reserves we have of it are finite, just like our reserves of crude oil.

And with either of these options we still deal with the short-comings of the internal combustion engine. I grew up loving machines, cars, and the internal combustion engine, but it must change. Gasoline, LNG, CNG, Ethanol - they all use the internal combustion engine which means: Oil for engine lubrication, coolant (ethylene glycol - nasty stuff), regular maintenance, inherent inefficiencies like heat, an ideal engine speed operation (camshaft design is always a compromise, even with variable valve timing).

Conversely, electric motors have 100% of their designed torque available from a stop, they produce less heat (waste), don't require oil changes or coolant flushes, or leaky gaskets, and brushless motors require almost no maintenance at all short of the occasional bearing swap.

There are just too damn many of us these days to consume things like people did fifty years ago. Electric is the answer, save two major problems: Range (battery capacity), and infrastructure (synthesizing the electricity from solar/wind/geothermal etc..).

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Old 05-20-2008, 10:45 AM   #24
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

I think you hit the problem right on the head most people who consume cars are doing so with a 50 year old idea in mind kept alive by billions of dollars of advertising. I love the for ad here in Northern Illinois for SUVs shows a guy all dressed like he could break out into song at any moment standing by a huge SUV. He says it may cost a little more to drive ďbut we can afford itĒ Gotcha the poor fool if you can afford $4 it will go to $8 if you can afford $8 it will go to $16 and so on. Saudis just love these guys.

I agree electric is the way to go high torque low maintenance very efficient energy conversion compared to the internal combustion engine. Trouble is with all the new technology available itís been pitifully under explored and unsupported in the field as a alternative car fuel.

One replacement option I was tossing over is the evolutionary cousin of the Metro running around Baja the Chevrolet Chebby. Iíve seem many in Baja since about 1998 owners say highly reliable 50 mpg A/C but no automatico only 5 speedo. They sold new in 2000 around $6900 used now about $2000 US pollution standards, but not DoT standards. They are tastefully designed with headroom for the Sunday sombrero and a donkey hitch on the front for added fuel economy. They do meet US road ability standards as they will issue a pass for them only with Mexican plates and they can use the centuri lane at customs so they are pre approved but not exportable. When I get back home to San Diego I may take a closer look at the 2008 models. If it were possible to get a partial electric conversion a SCCA approved roll cage it may be able to run as an alternate fuel vehicle the gas engine could be used to power and charge at high speeds at low speeds just set back take a swig of ethanol can cruse around town on electric?
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:26 PM   #25
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Anything besides gasoline is going to take changing the infrastructure big time!

If it is Ethanol - then changing the raw material source (hideous agricultural implications!),
changing the manufacturing methodology and equipment - the delivery infrastucture
can remain essentially unchanged.

The US Gubment will have fits with their anal desire to tax a consumable fuel!
Imagine ethanol available to drink for pennies.....(?)
Talk about getting pickled!

If it is Hydrogen - the entire infrastructure will have to be changed with gross
implications for manufacturing (w/o burning carbon based coal or oil),
delivery (dangerous high pressure tanks or safe metal hydride containers), and
complete engine specifications changes.

If Electric - total change over to non-hydrocarbon, non-combustion "motors"
and continually upgrading battery technology and slow chargeup times.
Unless they can develop "large capacitor" based electric storage systems.

Electric systems presents its own dangers - electrocution, massive shorting
of batteries (explosions), corrosion ad nausium...etc.

The next few generations will face massive changes just as our Grandparents
lived thru "horse and buggy" to automobiles and flying in the air.

What a change the old folks saw!

Six guns and Indians all the way to Spaceflight even!

You have no idea how fascinating the next 50 years will be!

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Old 05-22-2008, 08:09 PM   #26
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

I just filled my gas tank at COSTCO about three hours ago in Spokane, WA.

$3.84 per Gallon.

Did my math in my glovebox notebook and came up with 49.06 mpg !

Give or take 1 mpg for error in filling the tank to the same place - that ain't half damn bad Folks!

Let's see a Hybrid beat that!

The following is my ranting about how totally freaking Insane our country's "leaders" are....
Please don't read it.

On the way home, I listened to Glen Beck on the AM talk about the meat brained Congressmen
questioning Oil Execs about why gas prices are so high.
Here is the transcript of that particular broadcast:
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/art...cle/198/10340/

Each Congressman gets paid Many Thousands of $$ for being on those Useless Congressional
"Panels" and the Congressmen are THE DIRECT CAUSE of the problems!

No questions about why - just "why are you dealing with Burmese Leaders and
how much are you contributing to the Burmese flood plight?"

One Congressman was pissed that Exxon's CEO made 22 Million in wages? Matt Damon, Angelina
Jolie, Nickolas Cage, George Clooney - all make more than that each year for a single crap movie!
The CEO runs the biggest Corp in the world!

Not one offered that all oil companies have to buy oil from Foreign countries and OPEC
because the Meat Brained Congress won't allow us to drill OUR OWN FREAKING OIL!

Or that the won't allow any new refineries to be built to replace the ones that are wearing out
or are outdated technologically.

Or that none of our Oil Companies can drill off the Coasts, but that Foreign Oil Companies are allowed
to drill there and THEN sell us our own oil later. They don't need to follow Environmental laws - but we do.

Or that the Profit Margin for Exxon was 8% last year. THE Biggest Corp in the world makes Billions,
but when the profit margin is calculated by dividing by its running costs, it is no higher than the average US business.....

Or that Oil Corporations are owned by their investors (stock) like me who rely on the stock for their IRA's
and retirement fund money thru Investment Houses and Mutual Funds.

I think we are being fed a tub of crap about oil by Congressmen who are so hideously ignorant and socialistic that
they can't or won't understand Capitalism.

But then we elect them....we get what we put into Washington, DC. and why are they usually rich and socialistic?

One Senator was pissed that it cost him $60 to fill his SUV's gas tank! HIS SUV! You and
I are supposed to be driving little gas saving hybrids!

Just keep them Caribou and Owls and Frogs happy folks, while you pay $5 and up a gallon
to warm your houses in winter and drive your cars and ship your food....the Caribou love you!

Let's all sing Coomiyah....and send our money over to OPEC. Don't eat meat! Don't smoke. Don't drink.
Don't cuss. Just watch "Whos the Next Supermodel" and "American Idol" and "Dancing with the Stars."
We need another politician......who knows nothing, but who will "change everything".

When OPEC Oil Producers buy GM and FORD with all those Trillions in oil money, they will buy the same
Senators who are screwing us over now and THEN Alaska's oil will be drilled - for OPEC - who will own it!

What do you think the Foreign Oil types are doing with all those trillions of dollars - hmmm?
Just keeping it in the bank? Burying it in the sand?

The company I was laid off from in 1999 has just now been bought by an INDIAN pharmaceutical Corporation.
INDIAN! from India....Jesus! A once third world country!

Something strange is going on. We are being lied to and hustled by media who all say
the same thing! THAT is what is strange. Is the US Media owned by foreigners?
Being used to manipulate us? Slowly like water dripping on rock...wearing us away? Laugh it up!

We are so damned stupid! I am reminded of how the Russians were fed lies and propaganda
just before the Bolsheviks took over in 1917. All of a sudden, it was too late.

A pissed off DoctorBill
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:34 AM   #27
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Man o Man Iím up in northern of Chicago you canít buy gas less than $4.15 a gallon today. When I get done with the boathouse roof, its show time the XFI comes out of winter storage. I would up the maintenance on anything above 40 mpg the 1.0L is worth its weight in gold or Saudi scalps right now.

The government turned a blind eye and deaf ear like they were paid to do and let this oil mess potential hovel our country. Republican and Democrats sold us out. Chicago news media said oil is forecast above $200 per gallon and gas $6-$8 a gallon in the next 12-24 months. There is a 2 year wait for Smart cars. Iím a firm believer in the strengths of a capitalistic economy but not a rigged sellout like we have.

The oil companies like Exxon and European counterparts BP, Shell and the others, are opportunists just setting back scraping profits from the religious based Saudi economic attack on us. Saudis under pressure from their religious and cultural constituents in occupied countries are putting a damper on our economy. As the Notre Dame model shows as economy slows so does a countries ability to conduct warfare activates. Like we did in the cold war with USSR. Our Republican and democratic elected managers befriended these guys now they want us to give them another chance in November? We need to demand better leaders.

I admire the 1.0L gang like the resistance. I was just reading that oil futures are replacing gold in some wealthy investorís portfolios. Add this to the increasing world demand for oils in developing countries, and economic warfare and a declining dollar this could be more than a price adjustment and last for some time. If it goes away quick itís another short term patch that will fall apart again later. I think we are really ignorant people as a whole so keeping the 1.0L well maintained for extended service may be a wise move.

I was just reading about the burst and coast method or driving the 1.0L and seeing how I could modify and incorporate it into my commute it things get out of hand. When markets become unbalanced there is always the risk of fuel rationing.
http://metrompg.com/
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:40 PM   #28
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Oh, Lord are you right about many of the things you said, but one really strikes
home - "I think we are really ignorant people as a whole...".

My college Chemistry Students are so incredibly naive as to border on being babies.

One wonders if they think at all about anything at all......and They vote!

The Current Senate Judiciary Committee "Hearings" points out just how totally
ignorant our so called "Leaders" are.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_9351447

I listen to exerpts of the some of the Senator's questions and I wonder if the
United States can survive such Rampant Jerkism...

One woman Senator, Maxine Waters, interrupted a Chevron Exec who was attempting to educate
her on who we have to buy oil from because we are not allowed to drill our own oil due to Liberal Environmentalist rules...
How can Gasoline be $2 a gallon when Crude is $120 a barrel up from $40?
Oil Corporations don't sell the Crude - they have to buy it!

She said that "And guess what this liberal would be all about? This liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh,
would be about basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."

The word is "Nationalize" dearie, not Socialize....

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/05/2...-oil-industry/

Can you imagine the Government running our Oil and Gasoline production?!
Hillary, Obama, McCain, Kennedy, Schumer, Dean......all those smart people administering the bureaucrat clerks?

We are becoming what we defeated in the Soviet Union!

These meat brained stuffed shirt Congressional Lightweights don't even understand
basic economics!

I hope that all this price rise in Gasoline and Diesel Fuel brings out the unbridled
ignorance of our Congress.

It is beginning to show now as the House Judiciary Committee meat brains each
grab a microphone and show all of us what complete morons they really are.

They have NOTHING to contribute except more rules and taxation - they are clueless.

We are leaderless in a world full of aggressive nuclear nations wanting what we have built up
and predatory, barbarian, religious crazies beating on the gates.

DoctorBill
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:16 AM   #29
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Hello Dr.B and Six Seas. I would like to keep this thread alive and back on track. I have been looking into ethanol as a fuel sourse for a bit. Actually on and off for a few years. In fact I will be doing some more research next month .

Dr. B you got me interested in a posible Hyrogen solution.

For a bit on my projects right now. I have an EFI 1L. motor to rebuild and then can use that as a test platform. I personally only have a 1.8 mile round trip commute (toyota tercel). Gas milage means nothing to me personally. I only use 15 gallons every 2.5 months. The geo motor is going to go in a hovercraft that I will be building. I have a '97 T-Bird that hit 232,000 and needs a re-build. I would like to run that on an alterative fuel.

I have also looked into compressed air driven Wankel motors, diesel using used oil, Really coll stuff using RF of Platinum getting water to seperate H&O which is supposed to be feasible as far as lossless energy.
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Old 07-07-2008, 07:15 AM   #30
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Re: Could a 3 Cylinder Metro be made to run on Ethanol?

Has anyone tried a hydrogen booster, one turning water into hydrogen?


http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster.html


http://www.the-gas-saver-connection.com/index.html
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