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Old 12-31-2003, 11:40 AM   #1
FurbyMaX
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Exclamation Concerning the Zonda's handling

If you have watched the comparison between the Murcielago and the Zonda, made by Topgear, you will see that the Zonda produces faster laptimes than the Murcielago (with a difference of a good 6 seconds).

The Zonda is much lighter than the Murcielago (1260kg versus 1650kg of the Murcielago). Therefore one would think that the Zonda would have a much better grip and handling than the Murcielago, and by the lateral acceleration and slalom figures, it seems as though it is true.

However, if you watch the video, Clarkson comments that the Zonda does not corner as well as the Murcielago, but instead surpasses the Murcielago in terms of acceleration, and that is because of its sheer torque (750nm).

When you see both cars running, you can clearly see that the Zonda's tyres lose grip in the corners, and that is because first the Zonda is RWD, second its because the RWD in the corners can't control so much torque (750nm is a lot of torque for such a light car!), and thus the car sometimes oversteers.

So the handling is compromised by this problem.

Another problem is the initial acceleration from nought to 62 mph (or 100kmh). It takes the Zonda 3.6 seconds. Clearly with that much torque, it can do much better than that (it has more torque than the Mclaren, and about the same weight, so there is a lot of potential!). Why does it do 3.6 seconds? Because initially, the tyres slip. But this is a minor problem, since 0-60mph is not that important.

However, if compared to the Murcielago, it seems odd. The Murcielago is a really good exotic, but it weighs so much, and even has much less torque! But it manages to have an acceleration from 0-60mph in about the same time as the Zonda, but after 60mph, the Zonda justs leaves the Murcielago.

But the true thing that made me wonder is why the Murcielago outhandles the Zonda! What is the problem? The problem is that the Murcielago is 4wd while the zonda is RWD! The murcielago has so much weight and power that without the 4WD, the tyres would just not grip in the corners. While the Zonda, its achilles heel as I think of it, is that it cannot control that much torque, in 0-60mph, and especially in the CORNERS! So how do you answer that problem? By changing the Zonda from RWD to 4WD, and by using the viscous coupling of the Murcielago, or the Torque distribution of the Skyline R34, to govern that much torque in the initial acceleration, and especially in the CORNERS...

Why did Horacio Pagani not make the Zonda 4WD? Because he wanted the Zonda to be a true supercar, but especially since the the 4WD adds a lot of weight.
However, I think that the 4WD could have been added, since even though it adds weight, it would be no more than 200kg, making the Zonda 1460 kg. But Im sure that Pagani would be able to decrease the weight of the 4WD, by optimizing it.
I think that 4WD is the way to go, especially when dealing with huge amounts of Torque, like 750nm, which is monstrous, but still not effectively used!

And finally, one more word! Topgear retested the Murcielago after a while, and guess what, it surpassed the Zonda's laptime!!!

And... One final question: does www.paganizonda.com work for you? What happened to that site?
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Old 01-01-2004, 07:25 AM   #2
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Re: Concerning the Zonda's handling

So does anyone want to comment on this argument?
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Old 01-01-2004, 12:42 PM   #3
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I wouldn't really call it an argument. I think that AWD was left out to purposely cut down on weight. If the Zonda was equipt with AWD it would probably weigh almost the same as the Murcielago. I have noticed the comments the Clarkson made. Anyways, I still love both cars greatly and can't wait till I see a Zonda for the first time with my own two eyes.
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Old 01-01-2004, 04:09 PM   #4
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Re: Concerning the Zonda's handling

The porsche 911 tt 4WD weighs around 1550kg (100kg less than the murcielago), but handles exceptionally well. And that is because the tyres do grip around the corner...

Do you remember the Diablo SV? It was similar to the VT, except that it was RWD instead of 4WD.
And the difference in weight? The Diablo VT weighs around 1650kg, the SV around 1500-1550. Around 130 kg of difference.

By adding the 4WD, the Zonda would weigh 1380kg or something similar. And it would handle even better, possibly better than anything else on the market, due to its light weight as a 4wd (something like 1400kg is still light for a 4WD), AND the tyres would be able to cope with all that torque.

http://www.autodrome-cannes.com/index-eng.asp
Visit this website. It is a Pagani dealer. It states that spec-wise the zonda beats the Enzo, being that the Enzo is 100kg heavier than the Zonda (at first I could not believe it: The Zonda has an incredible and luxurious interior, full of leather, while the Enzo has a dull carbon fibre cockpit!), and guess what, the Zonda has more torque than the Enzo! However, the Enzo has more hp. So who wins spec wise? The Enzo is a track-car, so its suspension are track tunes, not road-tuned, and thus it handles better than the Zonda. However, solely based upon the stats, the Zonda is faster than the Enzo, because of its Weight and torque! If the Zonda could muster another 70hp, thus making the total hp output to 630hp, then it would be faster than the mclaren!
And if you read the articles there, there's a comparison between the Zonda and the Enzo (not spec-wise, but a real test), and the Reviewer states that the Zonda feels composed even after 200mph, while the Enzo does not, and this is a real achievement!

AND FINALLY, did you notice that this dealer (autodrome) can make you order a Zonda which sort of has a "Sports Optional", which increases the hp of the Zonda to 600hp? At 600hp, the Zonda will surely beat the Enzo in a straight line, and the Mclaren too!
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Old 01-03-2004, 01:18 AM   #5
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the zonda's entire range of torque from radle to peak are all above 500nms, at 2000 rpm the engine has 600nms. with twin plate clutch, the car is getting almost all of the power from flywheel to the wheel.

from the peak torque 4000rpm to the peak 7000rpm is a gradual torque desent from 700nms to 510 nms, turning at a high rpm and let go of the gas would result increase of torque. plus the gear ratio is using most of the 4000 to 7000 range, traction lost is inevatable.

without adding weight onto the car, traction can be help by delay the peak torque to higher rpm, (which mecedes did with CLKGTR with 1000rpm), smoother torque curve no sudden increase follow by decrease, it would run a lot more predictable.

and another thing, from the topgear video, jeremy clarkson claim that start the Murcielago needs to be gental before give it all is not so correct. To drag the Murcielago can use the high rpm droping clutch to get the best results, Murcielago has a relatively lower lower to mid range torque, and gental start would make the 4wd stunble on a drag condition. the zonda would still beat it on the straight but wont be that much.
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Old 01-29-2004, 01:11 AM   #6
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Re: Concerning the Zonda's handling

I feel the 4wd would not help the handling. I would prefer the car, personally, with RWD.
I feel it corners worse because of the softer, more luxurious suspension. It would be 'sloppier' with quick and uneven transitions.
So, i dont think a lack of 4wd is the problem....and if 4wd really helped, then race cars that must meeta minimum weight would use it (ie, I believe Nascar can use 4wd, and I think trans am has no rules against it either.....)
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Old 12-03-2004, 06:39 PM   #7
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Hello everyone, first reply in the Zonda threads.

To answer Chris, 4WD does help some race cars, but are banned due to unfair advantage, or are just not prevalent to the image the series wish to portray (why make Nascar AWD when no production car the Nascar racers are based on have AWD). AWD are actually allowed in a number of series, however, they are subject to a higher minimum weight which makes them uncompetitive. CART for example has not banned 4WD however the minimum weight would make the car so utterly uncompetitive why bother dumping in hundreds of thousands to even try and develop it. Audi brought AWD back to the Speed World Challenge several years back, but had to spend thousands to develop a system, which was fairly uncompetitive until the A6's where introduced didn't offer much advantage besides starting.

As for the debate, there's just so much to consider when one is describing the handling of a car, which is as much 'feeling' as it is lap time. Stiffer suspension could have ment the Pagani was boucing around more and couldn't put the power down. Although I wouldn't question the Stig, as I know he has an exceptional background in racing and F1, but time behind the wheel to get used to a car does make a difference on confidence on track. Perhaps the softer suspension and AWD of the Lambo instilled more confidence to push harder. You see this many times at local race tracks. Cars that are national, championship winners in the hands of less experienced drivers often end up way down the field, or in a wall, because it takes considerably more time and effort to get the speed out of them. They are faster, just not initialy.

As for, why not make the Pagani an AWD, I would say just a matter of philosphy of what a true super car/racecar is. Seeing as how Pagani reworked individual body panels and cabon fibre weaves make the lightest possible chassis, I would imagine his idea of the perfect super car to be the most pure and fundamental driving experience. I just can't see someone like that going "good enough, lets slap on AWD and net ourselfs .3 in a 0-60 time". Not to mention his expertise is exotic materials, not mechanics. Mercedes Benz does not have a stron production AWD nor do they compete at any level of motor sport with AWD. Perfect example is the Skyline vs. NSX Type R (Japanese version) battles. They both have nearly identical lap times every time they are on track, but one is a computer ridden, bulky, AWD, turbo charged sedan and the other a mid mount, two seat, normaly aspirated sports car with no driving aids. Two completely different enginering standpoints, but nearly identical results.

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