Ferrari Modena, Porsche 996 Turbo or Honda NSX ?

[Deakins]

I think the stock C5 did it in 8:40, that's 3 seconds slower than the Golf R32.

[crayzayjay]

Oh dear....

I cant vouch for this site, it seems the car was raced on several tracks

http://www.car-videos.com/performanc...p?id1=15&id2=0

8 minutes 53? A '99 GT3 is a whole minute quicker. I hope the Z06 was in the hands of a learner driver. I think i'd be faster on my old skateboard, and that includes me falling off a dozen times or so. A standard C5 is said to do it in 8mins 40secs (seen it on a couple sites now) so how much faster can the Z06 really be? Half a minute behind the GT3 at best, and still slower than a "standard" 911. I doubt it would top a '91 911RS.

http://bmwdeler.no/nordschleife.html

[flylwsi]

considering the improved suspension, grip and more power that the zo6 has, it would at least give the porsche a run for its money.

i'm not going to argue it, b/c i've not driven the 996, gt2 or zo6...

so i'm speculating.

however, if the c5 is found to be considerably slower in the hands of capable drivers on shorter road courses, it only makes sense that over a longer course, like the ring, that the zo6 would make a considerable gap b/n itself and a c5.

and i'm not claiming it's as fast or faster or anything than a porsche...
i'll wait for the numbers to show up there...

[BlOOe46]

yeah . . . a real scientific comparison we have going here guys

comparing nurburg ring times for different cars with different drivers on different days in different conditions on different tire/tread compounds is worse then magazine racing (at least they try to keep some of their variables constant)

the original thesis i set out to debate over was that the z06 was as competent, if not moreso, then the ferrari 360 modena, now i have anti-american/ european car nuts jumping on my back and beating me over the head with cars like the gt3 and tracks like the nurburg ring

the only reply i can surmise at this time regarding the z06s horrible track times at the ring is that when more z06s start coming overseas, and there are more competent drivers who are familiar with the course piloting the cars, there will be a better showing then what present track times have to offer

there is no doubt in my mind this is the case, i dont know how anyone could think differently on this issue, 8:40??? if u dont think the z06 can at least top the c5 then u obviously do not want to accept the z06

[crayzayjay]

Anti-american, European car nuts? Chill please, thank you.

1. Yes, we are comparing Nurburgring (one word) times for different cars. How else are we going to judge which car is quickest?
2. Yes, the cars are driven by different drivers, but these are all very competent drivers to be able to lap the ‘ring at the speeds they lap at, and extremely likely to be ‘ring veterans, either instructing there, or having tested there hundreds of times for manufacturers or magazines.
3. Different days and conditions, yes. This is the real world, you have to accept that. But times wouldn’t have been recorded for wet days, so aside from this a difference in air and track temperature will not cause a huge discrepancy in lap times achieved / achievable
4. Different treads/ tyre compounds? Ignore all the modified cars and you’ll see that times are taken for

You’re telling us that the Z06 is as - if not more - competent than the Modena. Ok, so we obviously need some proof. Back it up. That’s what im doing with the Nurburgring here. The ‘ring is the ultimate test for a car and therefore the ultimate basis for comparison. The track is so long and full of every kind of corner that exists that it shows up the pros and cons of each car, as well as which cars are faster than which. The GT3 beat the Modena? What that means is, in the same (capable) hands, a GT3 is a faster car than the 360 Modena around a track.

I agree with you, I am in no doubt that the Z06 was driven by – I wont say a novice, because sub-9 mins at the ‘ring is no slouch – but someone who doesn’t really “know” the ring. But the C5 was – and it lapped in 8 minutes 40. You cant dispute that.

Originally posted by BlOOe46
if u dont think the z06 can at least top the c5 then u obviously do not want to accept the z06

oh cut the crap, I told you I lopped a generous 20 seconds off the time of the C5 for the Z06

[BlOOe46]

Originally posted by crayzayjay
The ‘ring is the ultimate test for a car and therefore the ultimate basis for comparison.

unless we see a 360 and a z06 in a duel with two competent drivers, two similar tire tread/compounds, and two sessions (drivers switching cars) this will all just be mere speculation

[flylwsi]

the tire thing you're trying to bring up is purely subjective.

the zo6 has some of the grippiest goodyears on the road.

the modena has some of the grippiest pirellis on the road.

provided you run both cars in their STOCK form, that won't matter.

if you had the same driver run both cars on the same track in STOCK form, you can't argue tires.

that's not up to the tester, it's up to the manufacturer.

[crayzayjay]

Precisely. My sentence concerning tyres trailed off in the previous post cos i was at work trying to conceal what i was typing and forgot to finish the damned sentence! Besides, isnt the Z06's biggest boast the amount of lateral g it can pull on the skidpad? Thats all i ever hear when someones talking about the Z06. People confusing handling with grip and spitting out g figures for the Z06.

Im sorry Bloo, i tried to reason with you and you've kept making the same - lame - excuses. As flylwsi pointed out, they're both on stock, road tyres, the shoes the cars are sold in, which the manufacturer chooses. So cut the crap excuses. And about the different driver excuse, you confirmed that Chevrolet do test at the 'ring, so dont tell me their test drivers are not up to it. Those guys will have been around the track hundreds of time and have to be rated as quick as anyone else who tests for these other manufacturers. Face it, the best a C5 could do was 8mins 40. Call it speculation, but common sense dictates a Z06 will get nowhere near 8 mins.

[BlOOe46]

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Besides, isnt the Z06's biggest boast the amount of lateral g it can pull on the skidpad? Thats all i ever hear when someones talking about the Z06. People confusing handling with grip and spitting out g figures for the Z06.

look back at all the posts ive made regarding this subject, did i ever mention lateral skidpad once?

Originally posted by crayzayjay
As flylwsi pointed out, they're both on stock, road tyres, the shoes the cars are sold in, which the manufacturer chooses. So cut the crap excuses.

what excuses am i making? about what? i merely stated that since u think the nurburgring is the ultimate test, for a comparison between the 360 and the z06 to be consistent, tires are one variable which should stay constant (in case u didnt know, this would eliminate any advantage for either car in the area of tires)

Originally posted by crayzayjay
And about the different driver excuse, you confirmed that Chevrolet do test at the 'ring, so dont tell me their test drivers are not up to it.

if u would have read closely, i confirmed that GM tested a new high performance CTS model on the ring, never anywhere did i say chevy tested the z06 at the ring . . . still looking for any word

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Call it speculation, but common sense dictates a Z06 will get nowhere near 8 mins.

i will call that speculation, because until i see proof that a competent driver was unable to reach the 8 minute mark, thats exactly what it is, speculation

[crayzayjay]

1. I didnt accuse you of ranting on about lateral g's, its something ive come across many times elsewhere on AF.

2. Thanks for explaining the concept of constant variables to me, its something i'd never managed to understand throughout my advanced physics courses... so thats what they mean by fair testing eh?
To the point -> high performance cars use high performance tyres that the manufacturer chooses to optimise the car's performance. You're simply going to have to accept that one may be marginally better than the other or vice-versa. Either way, these are supposed to be the best tyres that extract the best performance out of the car, so the cars are achieving their optimum pace. The lateral g comment i made indicates that the Z06 has very grippy rubber indeed, so if anything, its tyres are grippier than the Modena's, as ive read some American articles stating that the Z was the grippiest car theyve ever tested, reading an issue of evo i picked up yesterday, the C5 is described as all road-holding, no handling. You get the point.

3. So Chevrolet tests the CTS on the ultimate track but not their primary performance model, their pride, the Corvette. Likely.
Besides, the C5 laps in 8mins 40, its on the link i posted earlier. And thats the very best time it managed out of many many laps. It takes more than a hundred laps of the nurburgring to get anywhere near quick enough reaching those times. Im in no doubt that you'll keep questioning the ability of the driver who hustled the vette around the ring in that time, but ill tell you anyway, its quite an achievement reaching that time. Look a few places above it and you'll see a Nissan GTR V-Spec piloted by none other than Dirk Schoysman. Only 3 seconds quicker. Nuff said. Believe what you want to, but no matter how better the Z06 is than the C5 it sure as hell isnt going to take the best part of a minute off its time. Thats laughable.

[flylwsi]

hat excuses am i making? about what? i merely stated that since u think the nurburgring is the ultimate test, for a comparison between the 360 and the z06 to be consistent, tires are one variable which should stay constant (in case u didnt know, this would eliminate any advantage for either car in the area of tires)

if that were the case, you'd be changing the vehicle from it's stock form.

this means that if, for example, that the zo6 has grippier tires, so you change the modena to the same grippier tires, then you'd be "modifying" the modena, and giving it better grip...

that's why you run them the same as stock.

end of story.

unless you picked something like a race tire or something... but then the vette having massive rims means more rubber on the ground, which would give it an advantage...

so, leave it stock.

anything else?

[BlOOe46]

Originally posted by crayzayjay
3. So Chevrolet tests the CTS on the ultimate track but not their primary performance model, their pride, the Corvette. Likely.

ok, ill repeat it again, chevrolet is not cadillac, nor does it dictate GM (General Motors)

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Besides, the C5 laps in 8mins 40, its on the link i posted earlier. And thats the very best time it managed out of many many laps. It takes more than a hundred laps of the nurburgring to get anywhere near quick enough reaching those times. Im in no doubt that you'll keep questioning the ability of the driver who hustled the vette around the ring in that time, but ill tell you anyway, its quite an achievement reaching that time.

if that type of driving performance is an achievement, why am i hearing so much about this 8 minute benchmark?

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Look a few places above it and you'll see a Nissan GTR V-Spec piloted by none other than Dirk Schoysman. Only 3 seconds quicker. Nuff said.

ok never heard of him . . . and now u bring another car into this fiasco, remember, the cars in question are the z06 and 360 modena

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Believe what you want to, but no matter how better the Z06 is than the C5 it sure as hell isnt going to take the best part of a minute off its time. Thats laughable.

ok this is straying way off topic, we are not comparing the c5 to the z06, we are comparing the z06 and modena . . . tell me why again u think these two cars are uncomparable? oh was it because of trivial lap times? i thought we were comparing cars, not drivers . . .

[BlOOe46]

Originally posted by flylwsi
so, leave it stock.

anything else?

ok, u make a fair point

i suppose then we could have both cars running the same wheel and tire combo . . . but perhaps then that would be a little overboard

so tires would be one variable to strike off the list

but what is important is the concept of an equal comparison, tires would be a more trivial matter then allowing two competent drivers to race back to back in each car

[Sean]

I'll take the lamborghini gallardo, thank you

[crayzayjay]

Ok, CTS is Caddy, my bad.. dunno what got me.. i knew that, but thanks for reminding me

Originally posted by BlOOe46


if that type of driving performance is an achievement, why am i hearing so much about this 8 minute benchmark?

Because its a thirteen mile track! Anything under 10 mins for a road car is good, anything under 9 is quick, around 8mins 30 is seriously quick, near the 8 minute mark is blistering and below it is simply incredible

Originally posted by BlOOe46


ok never heard of him . . . and now u bring another car into this fiasco, remember, the cars in question are the z06 and 360 modena

Oh thanks for reminding me which cars we were comparing, for a second there i forgot how to read. And sorry about bringing up a third car into this "fiasco" - i didnt think it would be so complicated to understand. You were questioning the ability of the guy who drove the C5 around in 8.40. So i used an example to state otherwise, that i will now rephrase for you:
Fast driver & 'ring expert - thats Dirk - he must have racked up over a thousand laps of that place - wrestled a 350bhp Skyline (similar power to the C5 and better traction) around the track in 8mins 37s. 8mins40 for a C5 shouldnt sound bad at all now. In fact, the Corvette driver should be given a medal. On the face of it he whupped Dirk's ass. I hope you get this now.

Originally posted by BlOOe46

ok this is straying way off topic, we are not comparing the c5 to the z06, we are comparing the z06 and modena . . . tell me why again u think these two cars are uncomparable? oh was it because of trivial lap times? i thought we were comparing cars, not drivers . . .

Oh sorry, my mistake to use the C5 - which after all the Z06 is heavily related to - as leverage in the comparison, i mean that's waaaaay off topic, it simply makes no sense
And yes, lap times are very trivial, i mean the fact that a car will lap around the most demanding track in the world 30 seconds faster than another is all down to the driver and not the car. Open your eyes a little. How do you want to compare these cars? Drive them down a straight? The Modena wasnt driven by Schumacher either and look where it is in the standings. This is going nowhere fast, it took half a dozen posts for you to accept the (very simple) tyres issue. This thread is over