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Old 12-17-2001, 09:34 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by MugenCivicHX
What about the honda motorcycle engines some of them produce in excess of 150 hp out of 1.0L or less and that is totally stock.
Ever try towing a car with a bike? Motorcycle engines don't need to haul around 2,000 lbs. and are engineered differently.
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Old 12-17-2001, 10:34 PM   #47
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I cant believe this debate is still going.

Honda has been building VTEC engines for over 15years, (development started in the early 80s, and the first production motors came out in 85/86 in some Bikes). They have almost perfected the technology to a point that now every Honda production engine made comes with some form of VTEC. No other manufactor can make a claim like that. (except maybe BMW who in the next two years will be using thier new intake valve tech on all thier engines)
As a result of this experiance Honda make engines with VERY flat torque curves, an almost unnoticable switch over point and have worked out how to match gear ratios seemlessly to the engines powerband.

Compare this to Nissans attempt, or Toyotas and Honda is Years ahead, both only make limited numbers of engines with this technology, and it would be fair to say that neither have perfected it. (whitness all the compliants about the Toyotas VVTi-L powerband and mismatched ratios, and Im quite sure the SR16ve would suffer similar problems, you dont get 200hp from a N/A 1600cc engine with out sacrificing a lot of low end power.)
If you want to make lots of N/A power from a stock engine with the minimum number of Mods, then I would always chose a B series Honda motor over an SR20DE. They come stock with more hp, have a much higher redline, with potential to extend it further, (a B16a is safe to 9,000rpm+ on stock internals) and will handle much wilder cams with out major alterations to the valve gear. Its also a lot easaier to get hold of N/A tuning parts for a B16/18 than it is for an SR20DE. (and dont even think your going to find a wide selection of parts and people who know how to tune an SR16/20VE )

If on the other hand I was planing on going with a Turbo then I wouldn't even look at a Honda engine, they simply dont take well to forced induction with out major internal work, and even then only a small number of people have done any real in depth resuarch. (I mean how many 700hp B18c's do you see? )
But I would seriously look at an SR20, Nissan spent a long time working on turboing this engine, and there are plenty of differnt turbo variants, which it takes to with great ease, and from Iv read in the G20 Forum much less work than a B16/18.
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Old 12-17-2001, 10:39 PM   #48
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As soon as someone can get me a skyline over here in the states then I will sell my honda
Until then, Honda it is.
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Old 12-17-2001, 10:54 PM   #49
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Yeah that is true but I have seen in the range of 30hp increases from the SOHC 3.2L type s motor from just a better set of headers on it. I am sure the nissan 3.5L has much room for improvement but it is still sad to see that they were advertising that it would have 260hp and then they couldnt even pull it off for that version of the engine. Also last time I checked the TL type s was faster than the new I35 from infiniti despite the higher torque. Once the 6 speed for the tl and cl comes out they will be killers that is for sure
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Old 12-18-2001, 12:15 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by MugenCivicHX
What about the honda motorcycle engines some of them produce in excess of 150 hp out of 1.0L or less and that is totally stock. Also the b16a isnt that good of an engine to do the compairing to as it is an old motor and is at the end of its life as most of the b series motors are. Here are 2 motors that are even better for comparison. The 260hp SOHC 3.2L v6 in the CL type s vs the 255hp 3.5L in the nissan maxima. nissan couldnt reach its engineering hope number for the HP with that engine.
Who gives a shit about 6 cylenders. Honda don't even make an 8. WTF is this post about! what about 150HP on a 1.0L if thats so kick ass put one in your car. What about yamaha. 120HP in 600cc!!

SOMEONE IS TOTALY OFF SUBJECT
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Old 12-18-2001, 12:52 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moppie
I cant believe this debate is still going.

Honda has been building VTEC engines for over 15years,
(development started in the early 80s, and the first production motors came out in 85/86 in some Bikes)
The technology of VTEC was around far befor HONDA ever had a name. I was told it was thought up and used in the late 30's .

I beleve BMW is leading the way as far as technology goes as thay have and still are developing Camless motors running infenit varable cam lift and deration & timing utalizing Silinoids to open valves.

Quote:
Original "BULLSHIT" posted by Moppie
Compare this to Nissans attempt, or Toyotas and Honda is Years ahead, both only make limited numbers of engines with this technology, and it would be fair to say that neither have perfected it. (whitness all the compliants about the Toyotas VVTi-L powerband and mismatched ratios, and Im quite sure the SR16ve would suffer similar problems, you dont get 200hp from a N/A 1600cc engine with out sacrificing a lot of low end power.)


ANYONE SMELL THAT???? I SMELL BULLSHIT!!!!!! B16A makes 113 ft-lb of torque the SR16VE makes 133ft-lb

Nissans 1.6 VVL makes the same if not more torque then the 1.8L VTEC found in the Acura Integra GS-R's

SR16 makes 105ft-lb of torque by 4500 rpm and climes up from there ! So the SR16 has a much wider power band then a B16. Shit the SR16 makes 90ft-lb at 900 RPM from idle. Thats not bad torque from a dead stop ether.

So to anwser that question. No to get 200HP you don't have to sacrafice low end power. If anyone has done so it would be honda.

Quote:
Original "BULLSHIT" posted by Moppie
Im quite sure the SR16ve would suffer similar problems

uhhhh how sure are you again??? I am sure that honda working with 15 year old technology most other manufacturers have made something better.
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Old 12-18-2001, 12:57 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by MugenCivicHX
Yeah that is true but I have seen in the range of 30hp increases from the SOHC 3.2L type s motor from just a better set of headers on it. I am sure the nissan 3.5L has much room for improvement but it is still sad to see that they were advertising that it would have 260hp and then they couldnt even pull it off for that version of the engine.

Hay its better then ford and what they did with the Cobra's They clamed 320 HP and in the building of the car they found the exhaust hung to low so they smashed the exhaust up under the car making the exhaust backpressure the flow and drop 20HP . Dyno proven and Ford Recalled all cobra's for new exhaust and a intake manifold problem that is now being extrude honed! At least Nissan was honest I give them that much.
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Old 12-18-2001, 01:23 AM   #53
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yeah that is true but still I would think nissan would have had an easy time getting that 5 extra hp out of a 3.5l
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Old 12-18-2001, 01:27 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by CHRIS200T

The technology of VTEC was around far befor HONDA ever had a name. I was told it was thought up and used in the late 30's .
The concept of variable lift and duration as well as timing has been around as long as the cam shaft, but Honda were the first to make it work in a mass produced automobile engine.



Quote:
Originally posted by CHRIS200T


ANYONE SMELL THAT???? I SMELL BULLSHIT!!!!!! B16A makes 113 ft-lb of torque the SR16VE makes 133ft-lb................SR16 makes 105ft-lb of torque by 4500 rpm and climes up from there ! So the SR16 has a much wider power band then a B16. Shit the SR16 makes 90ft-lb at 900 RPM from idle. Thats not bad torque from a dead stop ether.

uhhhh how sure are you again??? I am sure that honda working with 15 year old technology most other manufacturers have made something better.
Bullshit huh? well First I think you need to watch what your saying and be a bit more polite. I dont like your attitude, and I can and will do something about it. Lets keep this a rational and intelligent debate and keep any name calling and flaming out of it.

Now since Hp is a function of torque it follows that an engine with 200hp will also have a higher peak torque figure than an engine with only 160hp at a similar RPM point.

If you care to do a little resuarch you will also find the first B16a reached a torque peak at around 4,000rpm and maintained an almost flat curve right untill redline, the later versions in the JDM market improved on this emensly.

Now would you care to state your references for the torque and hp figures of the SR16ve, as all the resuarch I have done on the net has show VERY little information on both motors, most of it is in Japanese language sites. Otherwise how do I know your not BS'ing me.

and finnaly please tell me how many models and in what markets Nissan has used its SR..VE engines? and in how many models and in how many markets Honda has used VTEC, and then tell me how succesfull it has been?
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Old 12-18-2001, 04:40 AM   #55
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Originally posted by CHRIS200T


Go buy one you can get them from the dealership in japan. The car is sold on the show room floor. Lets compair cars that are sold buy there companys on the show room floor.... Thats what I am trying to compair. Any produced engine from there rightfull owner sold as showroom stock. Not showroom stock to aftermarket such as your doing
JDM F20C have 250ps from 2.0L I4. SR16VE-N1 have 200ps from 1.6L I4. You have been attacking that point because you know Honda doesn't sell a limited edition Type R for S2000. Which is pretty much what you are trying to use to compare with the mass production S2000. Either you can wait for a Type R variation of F20C a MASS Production SR16VE-N1. Until then we are really comparing apples to orange here. 1,000 engines per year does not count as mass production try 10,000.
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Old 12-18-2001, 04:42 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morpheus XIII


The VQ35DE is still quite new. The upcoming G35 will have 5 more hp to 260 from the same powerplant. Wait for the VQ in the new Z. Most are predicting anywhere from 270-280 hp. Then you have the shrouded GT-R specs. Who knows how much power can be extracted from the VQ, if it does get the green light for Nissan's flagship grand tourer. As you can see, there is still much room for improvement for the 3.5. I'm not saying that the Honda motor doesn't have the same, but the Nissan's looks quite promising.

Oh by the way, the Maxima's 3.5 L has about 10 more lb. ft. of torque than the CL Type-S's 3.2 L, also important stuff (probably due to displacement, but numbers are numbers right?)
VQ35DE is going to be the backbone of all future Nissan cars. The Turbo variation coming will make things very interesting.

How much gain on the nissan from header and exhuast for 3.5L?
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Old 12-18-2001, 04:45 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morpheus XIII


Ever try towing a car with a bike? Motorcycle engines don't need to haul around 2,000 lbs. and are engineered differently.
Which is more fun in your mind? 13,000 RPM Motorcycle or 6500 RPM Car.
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Old 12-18-2001, 04:46 AM   #58
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Originally posted by Moppie


The concept of variable lift and duration as well as timing has been around as long as the cam shaft, but Honda were the first to make it work in a mass produced automobile engine.





Bullshit huh? well First I think you need to watch what your saying and be a bit more polite. I dont like your attitude, and I can and will do something about it. Lets keep this a rational and intelligent debate and keep any name calling and flaming out of it.

Now since Hp is a function of torque it follows that an engine with 200hp will also have a higher peak torque figure than an engine with only 160hp at a similar RPM point.

If you care to do a little resuarch you will also find the first B16a reached a torque peak at around 4,000rpm and maintained an almost flat curve right untill redline, the later versions in the JDM market improved on this emensly.

Now would you care to state your references for the torque and hp figures of the SR16ve, as all the resuarch I have done on the net has show VERY little information on both motors, most of it is in Japanese language sites. Otherwise how do I know your not BS'ing me.

and finnaly please tell me how many models and in what markets Nissan has used its SR..VE engines? and in how many models and in how many markets Honda has used VTEC, and then tell me how succesfull it has been?
Hey moppie haven't seen you for a long time dude.
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Old 12-18-2001, 04:57 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by F20C


Hey moppie haven't seen you for a long time dude.
Iv been here, just not in this forum very much, I find a lot of these comparision pointless, and many of the contributors very narrow minded,

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Old 12-18-2001, 05:06 AM   #60
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Originally posted by Moppie


Iv been here, just not in this forum very much, I find a lot of these comparision pointless, and many of the contributors very narrow minded,

You should help out this forum. A lot of people participating in this forum make me wonder what has gotten into their mind. Just like earlier when someone posted Drag is a better judgement of a car's true ability than Track. I don't know man I haven't been on this board much lately either. It didn't help when PH took over the Honda/Acura side.
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