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Old 04-13-2006, 01:24 AM   #46
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayr747
Well, why buy any car new? You're just wasting money buy not buying a used car. But anyway, why but a Mitsu today? I can't defend the Lancer and Galant, but why wouldn't you buy an Evo? It has some flaws such as a poor side impact crash rating and I'm sure some mechanical problems. But if you want a performance car it's the one to get. No new car is gonna beat it for cheap straight line speed or its ability with the twisties, even if you spend twice as much.
I dunno about twice as much. You're stepping on the C6 Z51 Corvette's toes at that price. Besides, you don't have spend twice as much as an Evo to meet its match - a few grand more will get you an STi. In fact, the STi is about the same price as the Evo MR, which you need in order to get the six-speed transmission that the STi has. Why Mitsubishi doesn't put a six-speed in the base Evo is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimster
I'd like to think that the STi will keep up with an Evo and the new Golf R32 will nearly able to keep up (But not sacraficing comfort, mechanical reliability, refinement etc the way the Evo does)
Yes, the STi will keep up with the Evo. You'd NEVER know that from reading all the magazine comparisons, though; you'd have to actually to a few autocross events or track days and watch them both in action to know that. No doubt, the Evo is a racing champion - BENCH racing, that is. Not to mention that the STi has an in-dash six-disc CD changer, cruise control, and side airbags - all things which the Evo lacks. It's also got decent sound insulation and suspension damping. So, in short, buy an STi if you want a fast yet liveable sports car, a truly complete package. Buy the Evo if you want to go very fast, be very uncomfortable, and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2
The Evo has a rediculously bad transmission. I've heard from more then one person that the clutch can go bad within 20,000 miles even without launching it. I've also heard about chronic linkage problems. When you go to dealers asking to get these problems fixed they accuse you of driving too hard and refuse service. Mitsubishi is also known for voiding warranties on any Evos that are raced or modded. They literally watch forum websites and tracks for Evos to void. Competitive cars like the STi, GTO, Mustang GT, S2000, 350z, etc have none of these problems.
...burn your clutch to cinders in a matter of months, and be told by Mitsubishi that you don't know how to drive and street raced the car day and night. Bunch of shitheads.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:32 AM   #47
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

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Originally Posted by pimprolla112
Domestics have had there time and they are still diminishing, imports are now the future for performance.
I don't see that considering:

The fully revamped Mustang is selling very good
The Camaro is going to be back
The Ford GT is running with European cars of twice it's cost
The GTO came back and will be back again*
The Challenger is going to be reintroduced
The Charger has been brought back, though with four doors
The Corvette, arguably one of the best values in the history of cars, is in the mix with cars four or five times more expensive

The US domestic market is growing and seems to be set to continue to grow, it's hardly declining. The youth market in big cities may be very import centralized but much of the youth market else where and just about the entire older adult population is very domestic biased.

*To my understanding the current GTO is being discontinued because the Holden car that it is based off of is being discontinued. A new GTO built off the same rear drive platform being used for the new Camaro and is scheduled to come out at the same time or a year later.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:49 AM   #48
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broke_as_****
I don't see that considering:

The fully revamped Mustang is selling very good
The Camaro is going to be back
The Ford GT is running with European cars of twice it's cost
The GTO came back and will be back again*
The Challenger is going to be reintroduced
The Charger has been brought back, though with four doors
The Corvette, arguably one of the best values in the history of cars, is in the mix with cars four or five times more expensive

The US domestic market is growing and seems to be set to continue to grow, it's hardly declining. The youth market in big cities may be very import centralized but much of the youth market else where and just about the entire older adult population is very domestic biased.

*To my understanding the current GTO is being discontinued because the Holden car that it is based off of is being discontinued. A new GTO built off the same rear drive platform being used for the new Camaro and is scheduled to come out at the same time or a year later.
I agree. If anything, the U.S. market is really picking up the pace in terms of reliability and technology. The Mustang, the 300, and the Corvette, in particular, really exemplify what America can do. Ford's economy cars, the Focus and the Fusion, are pretty good as well, and the F-150 is superbly engineered - it better be, because it's the number one selling vehicle in America.

I don't like American cars, but some of them are pretty damn good.
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Old 04-13-2006, 02:03 AM   #49
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

America is hardly out of the performance game, in fact in many areas its pretty dominant.

The SRT4 is quickly becoming a favorite of FWD racers. It doesn't take a whole lot of money to have that thing running more power then literally any Japanese car does stock. Name one Japanese car under $25,000 new that can beat a Stage II Mopar SRT4 in a straight line. The Cobalt SS is in a similar position to beat up on Civic Type-S's, RSXs, etc.

Moving up a little bit, the Mustang GT is the only RWD V8 sports car under $30,000 that I can think of. Plus it looks great.

The GTO has a LS2. Thats 400hp stock for what ends up being around $30,000 after incentives. If I were to bet on a drag race between the GTO and ANY Japanese car ever sold in the States my money would probably be on the GTO. Its an amazing car that is incredibly misunderstood and underestimated.

The C6 Corvette is the performance buy for under $50,000. That same LS2 from the GTO except in a lighter, better handling car. The Z06 is fighting Ferrari F430s and Lambo Gallardos on straights. The C5R was a monster in its class in ALMS and I believe the C6R is well.

Since the death of the NSX, Japan has absolutely no sports cars above the $40,000 mark and won't until the next NSX and GT-R come out.
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Old 04-13-2006, 02:31 AM   #50
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by kman10587
I dunno about twice as much. You're stepping on the C6 Z51 Corvette's toes at that price.
Best Motoring actually raced a stock Evo RS, Corvette Z51, Ferrari 360 Modena, Porsche 911 Turbo, Skyline R34 GTR, and NSX. The Evo never lets off the 911 and Skyline and comes in 3rd, one second after the first place 911. Cost of Evo RS new: $26k. Cost of Corvette: $55k, 360: $137k, 911: $136k, Skyline: $90k, NSX: $80k. So yes it can compete and dominate cars costing many times as much.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...toring&pl=true

It also beats a Lambo Murcielao around a track. This Evo actually posted one of the fastest times ever at their track coming in just below a Zonda. This car costs $55 usd, does the 1/4 mile in the 11s, 0-60 in 3.5 sec., and has a top speed of 175. From the vid: "It redifines what you think is physically possible."
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/D...C1AB6E53F2.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kman10587
Why Mitsubishi doesn't put a six-speed in the base Evo is beyond me.
Torque multiplicatin is one reason. You have MUCH less wheel torque as the gears increase. But the Evo MR does have a six speed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kman10587
Yes, the STi will keep up with the Evo. You'd NEVER know that from reading all the magazine comparisons, though; you'd have to actually to a few autocross events or track days and watch them both in action to know that. No doubt, the Evo is a racing champion - BENCH racing, that is. Not to mention that the STi has an in-dash six-disc CD changer, cruise control, and side airbags - all things which the Evo lacks. It's also got decent sound insulation and suspension damping. So, in short, buy an STi if you want a fast yet liveable sports car, a truly complete package. Buy the Evo if you want to go very fast, be very uncomfortable, and...
Well again I'm pretty biased towards Mitsu for obvious reasons. But I have read MANY tests and articles, both online and in mags, and the Evo wins pretty much every time. Vishnu Tuning who tunes both Evos and STis even says that Evos respond better and more cheaply to mods. If you look at their 400hp kit it's $4000 for the STi and around $2000 for the Evo. And after this point the Subie get much more expensive than the Evo. It's not hard to see why, the 4g63 with its iron block has had more turbo tuning work done to it in it's 15+ year run than probably any other engine. I've actually seen many people on Subie forums aknowledge this. The quickest Evo VIII right now is 9.4 with around 850awhp. The highest hp Evo VIII is 903awhp right now, and this is just some guy's car who took it to AMS, gave them ~$35k, and said make it the highest hp Evo in the world. There are previous generation Evos that have done better and DSMs have done MUCH better. Many tests have been done with turning abilities too and it's always the same. All these have something in common.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pv4l11Ho1k&search=evo
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1...027BE6ED76.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiCUdJhm4FE
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...0/article.html
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...5/article.html
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...icleId=105130# "Its steering, which is the finest in the world."
http://videos.streetfire.net/search/ams%20evo/0.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kman10587
...burn your clutch to cinders in a matter of months, and be told by Mitsubishi that you don't know how to drive and street raced the car day and night. Bunch of shitheads.
That is pretty f-ed up. But there may be more to the story than just that. I always find that most things are much more complicated and intricate than people give them credit for. And I'll bet other manufacturers aren't thrilled with honoring their warranties. It might not be just Mitsu that has problems ya know.
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:11 AM   #51
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pimprolla112
As for the DSM's, they could not compete with Honda as far as engines go, they make more hp per liter than any production mitsu (US model) without the aid of forced induction. I will give them credit the 4G is one of the most popular and most used for drag engines on the market. And for the most power for the least money, that made me laugh. Ive seen some of these cars with 20-35k into them and they cant break into the 12's, but these where riced pieces of shit. Ive seen some fast ass ones with a little over 10 including the car but generally around here i see them with mass amounts of fiberglass, carbon fiber, wings and paint that makes a damn HOK paint job look like factory and the car cant even get out of its own way. Im not bashing them but ive seen different sides of this factor.
Ok, a couple things. DSMs are first and second generation (1g & 2g) '90-99 Mitsubishi Eclipses, Eagle Talons, and Plymoth Lasers, and may also include Galant VR-4's, and if you really want to stretch it Evos. All having the turbocharged 4g63 motor and AWD. The 3g and 4g Eclipse are not DSMs nor do they have the 4g63 or AWD. Plus they just suck in general . DSMs are capable of 450-500whp on stock internals, run 12s for $700, 11s for under 2 grand, and are in fact one of the best bang for the buck performance cars, especially in a straight line. They can easily compete cost for cost with modded V8's until the limits of each motor (which will of course be higher on the engine with more displacement). Comparing them to Civics or any Honda in general is a joke. That's great that you see a different side but the fact is you're plain wrong. Go over to the Eclipse/Talon/Laser forum and ask some of the guys who have owned and raced DSMs for years (and Hondas in some cases) and see what they say. And unlike Hondas you don't need to do an engine swap, massive weight reduction, beefed up internals, and sleeved cylinders to make your car fast. Read this thread for proof of how cheap they can be made fast: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...or+short+money

To quote probably the most knowledgable DSM guru: "No one buys a turbo DSM because it's a nice reliable car. We buy them because they tear ass for short money."
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:19 AM   #52
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

First of all, Best Motoring is incredibly biased towards Japanese cars. It isn't even funny. Think of how much Jeremy Clarkson loves Aston and then times that by a thousand. I bet you could put an Enzo against a NSX on BM and the NSX would still tie it. I'd really like to see the BM guy in a Evo race the Stig in an Ferrari 360 and see who does better.

The Evo in the Top Gear video is a FQ400, meaning it has 400hp opposed to 281 or so in the American one. I think alot of that has to do with higher a psi, making it an even worse daily driver then the regular one. That FQ400 goes for about 47,000 GBP.
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:55 AM   #53
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2
First of all, Best Motoring is incredibly biased towards Japanese cars. It isn't even funny. Think of how much Jeremy Clarkson loves Aston and then times that by a thousand. I bet you could put an Enzo against a NSX on BM and the NSX would still tie it. I'd really like to see the BM guy in a Evo race the Stig in an Ferrari 360 and see who does better.

The Evo in the Top Gear video is a FQ400, meaning it has 400hp opposed to 281 or so in the American one. I think alot of that has to do with higher a psi, making it an even worse daily driver then the regular one. That FQ400 goes for about 47,000 GBP.
That doesn't explain why the $26k Evo beat the $80k NSX and was less than half a second slower than the $90k Skyline, and most likely would have been faster if it wasn't ramming into the Skyline the whole way. Then again the Skyline may have been faster if it wasn't ramming into the 911. Also, the 911 won... And it's not an Asian car. But what do you mean by biased? Do you think the drivers of the other cars were just not trying hard to make the Asian cars look better?

There are many other factors involved than just the normal rates of exchange. UK prices basically translate to the same amound in US dollars. Taken from another thread:

"The standard base UK spec MR costs 32,000 pounds"

"If you have lived anywhere in the UK, you will realize that US stuff selling in the UK are about a dollar to the pound.

It's a perpetual gripe over there :P when I was living there.

A PC that costs US$1000 costs GBP1000.

US XBox... US$299?
UK XBox... GBP299.

It sucks.. but there you go.

I wouldn't be surprised they could do an FQ400 for US$45,000, abt the same premium over a base US spec MR selling at US$33 to 35k.

I see the base models as the VIII in US and the MR FQ300 in UK.

The MR Edition in the US costs US$33-35k The closest equivalent in the UK would be the FQ340 which is abt GBP33k."

"It's very difficult to estimate how much a certain item would sell for here in the United States, I believe other factors also contribute to the extremely expensive prices for cars in the UK. Would it sell for $80k in the USA, that is highly unlikely, and Mitsubishi wouldn't even waste their time. $45K is also to cheap and it is not always a direct to direct value, if that were the case, then the 350Z convertable prices would start at $26K, sounds great, but bot realistic. $50K to $60K seems more reasonable, but I doubt that the USA will ever see this car, so it is all speculation. Still even at $50k, the price seems high, because it really doesn't take anywhere near $20K to achieve similiar or even better numbers. With $10 to 15K your GSR could be pushing 500HP (Flywheel) or more."

The fact that in the UK car prices are extortionate, is that we get taxed out of existence on all things....especially motoring. Just look at our petrol prices (gas)...we have someting like a 400% markup for tax alone. The evo is available from japan at something like the equivalent of 14,000....now as soon as it hits UK shores, VAT @ 17.5% and import duty are slapped on...you then have SVA, underseal and registration etc, which takes the price up a little, but if our government wasn't such a bunch of ****'s then we could probably get the same car for 10k less.

"Now the FQ400 should in theory cost you in the US $80,000, if it's a direct converstion from sterling to dollars, but it seems that you guys aren't taxed nearly as much, and so, get most of your cars cheaper....with the exception of skylines, which we can pick up for little money."
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Old 04-13-2006, 06:21 AM   #54
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayr747
I see the base models as the VIII in US and the MR FQ300 in UK.
what?
so the 260 just magically disappears when you go into the showroom does it?

anyway.
only two things i want to add.

first, of all, i don't think the FQ400 should not be used in any comparison a representative of the EVO because it was a very limited production car, tuned and fettled and otherwise totally re-jigged by Ralliart using specialist parts and one that you are not likely to ever come across in your lifetime.

secondly, i don't think you should cite the Focus as an example of an american economy car.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:35 PM   #55
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayr747
Best Motoring actually raced a stock Evo RS, Corvette Z51, Ferrari 360 Modena, Porsche 911 Turbo, Skyline R34 GTR, and NSX. The Evo never lets off the 911 and Skyline and comes in 3rd, one second after the first place 911. Cost of Evo RS new: $26k. Cost of Corvette: $55k, 360: $137k, 911: $136k, Skyline: $90k, NSX: $80k. So yes it can compete and dominate cars costing many times as much.
You can't determine which car is fastest in one race. For one, different cars do better or worse on different tracks. Second of all, the drivers did not all perform exactly the same. Sometimes, drivers have good days, and sometimes they have bad days. And thirdly, even I will admit that Best Motoring is HORRENDOUSLY biased towards Japanese cars, and you bet that they chose conditions that would be very conducive to the Evo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayr747
Torque multiplicatin is one reason. You have MUCH less wheel torque as the gears increase. But the Evo MR does have a six speed...
Well, that depends. Just because you add a gear doesn't mean you have to change the gearing. They could simply slap on an extra overdrive gear to help the gas mileage; or, they can shorten the first five to improve acceleration, and then add on the sixth at the same ratio the previous fifth was. Overall gearing not changed, but acceleration improved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayr747
Well again I'm pretty biased towards Mitsu for obvious reasons. But I have read MANY tests and articles, both online and in mags, and the Evo wins pretty much every time. Vishnu Tuning who tunes both Evos and STis even says that Evos respond better and more cheaply to mods. If you look at their 400hp kit it's $4000 for the STi and around $2000 for the Evo. And after this point the Subie get much more expensive than the Evo. It's not hard to see why, the 4g63 with its iron block has had more turbo tuning work done to it in it's 15+ year run than probably any other engine. I've actually seen many people on Subie forums aknowledge this. The quickest Evo VIII right now is 9.4 with around 850awhp. The highest hp Evo VIII is 903awhp right now, and this is just some guy's car who took it to AMS, gave them ~$35k, and said make it the highest hp Evo in the world. There are previous generation Evos that have done better and DSMs have done MUCH better. Many tests have been done with turning abilities too and it's always the same. All these have something in common.
I won't argue with you about which one is a better drag racer, because I think it's a tremendous waste of talent to drag race either one, when you simply get an old muscle car and make 1000 hp with relative ease. These cars were made for the race track, not the drag strip, so let's discuss their prowess there. Not that power doesn't make a difference on the race track, but you're not going to be running an 800 horsepower STi or Evo on Tsukuba or Motegi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayr747
That is pretty f-ed up. But there may be more to the story than just that. I always find that most things are much more complicated and intricate than people give them credit for. And I'll bet other manufacturers aren't thrilled with honoring their warranties. It might not be just Mitsu that has problems ya know.
I'm not saying that Mitsubishi is the only company that doesn't honor their warranties, but they have a reputation for being one of the worst, and they're certainly not in the same league as Subaru in that department. There's really nothing more to the story, and my friend is not the only one who's had a clutch fail prematurely and been told that Mitsubishi wouldn't replace it.
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:16 PM   #56
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Regarding BM, you could argue on and on about how those guys have spent alot more time with cars like the Evo and Skyline, or that they used a track that appeals to a certain kind of car, but what I think it boils down to is who their audience is. Just like Jeremy Clarkson rarely has a bad thing to say about Aston and Rolls, and American shows sweat the Corvette, the Japanese need to have Japanese cars do well in order to sell the show. You cannot convince me that a 400hp mid-engined RWD supercar should lose to a 300hp AWD Evo.
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Old 04-15-2006, 06:13 PM   #57
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

By 4G i meant 4G63 if i was to say 4th gen it would have said 4th gen i know what year cars had them and what gens, im not retarded. Hell it even came

I understand that you will put DSM's as better than any other car because thats your first choice in cars. Ive driven a 4G powered 1st gen talon it had nice acceleration, handle pretty well but i wasnt impressed with the car. Honda makes more HP per liter na than any mitsu ever has, without the aid of forced induction most of there cars couldnt break 15's from the factory.

Also the FQ400 shouldnt be used as a comparo for bone stock cars, if thats the case then fuck it the z-tune skyline would hand the FQ's ass to itself. Hell you want to make it interesting the fastest all motor honda runs a 9.4, whats the fastest all motor mitsu. As for handling yeah awd would be better for corners but that awd also adds extra weight and parasitic drag on the angine since it has to power 2 more wheels.

Im friends with alot of DSM guys they love there cars but they look at some of the hondas and are more impressed by that than a damn 10sec mitsu, they spend more money kepping there cars running than they do on aftermarket parts, let alone tha fact that replacing anything internal that requires removing the engine is a bitch. Ive done 3 swaps on DSM's and numerous ones on hondas. Il admit all cars have there individual potential, but swapping a GSR into a civic HB can get it into the 13's, and an h22 swap on an accord can get that into the 14's, with about 10 psi, lsd, and some other mods the car can get into the 12's thats a 4 door economy car never ment for racing that can beat alot of v8 and alot of turbo I-4's.

I see what your saying but i do disagree alot 700 for the 12's and under 2k for 11's elaborate please id love to see this. Best bang for the buck maybe, reliable maybe for 25kmiles. I had a h22 turbo in a civic running 16psi stock internalls, motor lasted about 35k and the rings went in it. And that was with about 120k already on it. Car was good for low 11's and sold it to a guy for over 5k. Say what you want but alot of people arent going to go out and buy a dsm cause someone told them you can run 11's for under 2k. And i know not everyone is going to buy a honda cause someone said an engine swap is getting it into the 13's NA. This is opinions. Thats what forums are no one is right or wrong in this.
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Don't ever look at cars as just imports or domestics. Just because a car is made in a certain country doesn't mean that it is anything like another car from that country. An example of this is Mitsubishi reliability, just because they are Japanese doesn't mean that they are as reliable as a Honda or Toyota.

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Old 04-16-2006, 12:22 AM   #58
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

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Originally Posted by pimprolla112
By 4G i meant 4G63 if i was to say 4th gen it would have said 4th gen i know what year cars had them and what gens, im not retarded. Hell it even came
I just assumed 4g meant the generation because we refer to them that way (1g, 2g, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pimprolla112
I understand that you will put DSM's as better than any other car because thats your first choice in cars. Ive driven a 4G powered 1st gen talon it had nice acceleration, handle pretty well but i wasnt impressed with the car. Honda makes more HP per liter na than any mitsu ever has, without the aid of forced induction most of there cars couldnt break 15's from the factory.
Ok, DSMs are SLOW stock. Although some people run high 13s with some free mods. I'm saying they are basically de-turned Evos that have a lot more potential than they are given credit for. Take an Evo motor, give it the smallest turbocharger known to man, and you've got a recipe for potential. Honda may make more hp per liter than Mitsu naturally aspirated, but Mitsu makes more hp per liter total. Why is not using a technology a good thing? I mean all that proves is Honda motor's efficiency and how they went about tuning them. That's an achievement in itself. You can talk all you want about how much hp per liter NA your motor makes but it's not going to matter when another motor has more hp total. In the end you run a certain time, on the drag strip or on the track. And it doesn't really matter how you did it, or what crutch you gave yourself.

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Originally Posted by pimprolla112
Also the FQ400 shouldnt be used as a comparo for bone stock cars, if thats the case then fuck it the z-tune skyline would hand the FQ's ass to itself. Hell you want to make it interesting the fastest all motor honda runs a 9.4, whats the fastest all motor mitsu. As for handling yeah awd would be better for corners but that awd also adds extra weight and parasitic drag on the angine since it has to power 2 more wheels.
I compared it to a Murcielago, a $280,000 car. If that's not a fair comparison then what is? Again that's great that Hondas can run those times NA but in the end you run the time you do, no matter what you have to overcome. AWD does have more drivetrain loss but this equals less than the gains from it. There are FWD and AWD DSMs and the AWDs are always at least a second quicker. And when you're racing from a stoplight you can't do a burnout, but the AWDs will always get their 1.6 60 foot. I think people underestimate the results of 4 wheels vs. 2 on the street. DSMs with moderate mods beat Supras with 700 hp on the street because they can't hook up. Look for the King of the Streets video if you want proof. Here's a good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU9_wNARC0c&search=dsm The SRT-4 and AWD DSM in this video are evenly matched when they race on the highway. But look what happens when they race from a stop. How many bus lengths did the DSM put on that car just because it had AWD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pimprolla112
Il admit all cars have there individual potential, but swapping a GSR into a civic HB can get it into the 13's, and an h22 swap on an accord can get that into the 14's, with about 10 psi, lsd, and some other mods the car can get into the 12's thats a 4 door economy car never ment for racing that can beat alot of v8 and alot of turbo I-4's.
How much does swapping an engine in a Honda cost? And the turbo kit, and the lsd, etc? You don't need any of that, or weight reduction, for a 1g DSM to get into the twelves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pimprolla112
I see what your saying but i do disagree alot 700 for the 12's and under 2k for 11's elaborate please id love to see this. Best bang for the buck maybe, reliable maybe for 25kmiles. I had a h22 turbo in a civic running 16psi stock internalls, motor lasted about 35k and the rings went in it. And that was with about 120k already on it. Car was good for low 11's and sold it to a guy for over 5k. Say what you want but alot of people arent going to go out and buy a dsm cause someone told them you can run 11's for under 2k. And i know not everyone is going to buy a honda cause someone said an engine swap is getting it into the 13's NA. This is opinions. Thats what forums are no one is right or wrong in this.
I can't prove this anymore than you can prove you could run 11s with your mods. But the thread I posted has an Import Tuner article where they dyno a 1g and get 110 hp gain from around $200 in mods. If you read the last post in that thread, one of the most respected and knowledgeable DSM gurus confirms the article and says that setup (+ cat-back) is good for 12s. Here's the quote:

"I believe it. I've seen 1Gs run mid 12s with the same mods, and I've posted this before. But instead of the FCD, hacked MAS, and a full exhaust as opposed to just the downpipe. These arent major differences, and the HP numbers they got (most likely from a dynojet) are in line with a mid 12 second car (AWD of course). I might be the only one, but I'm not terribly surprised, even if they did fudge the dynojet a little bit, it's close enough. After all, this is the whole reason we waste our lives with these shitboxes... No one buys a turbo DSM because it's a nice reliable car. We buy them because they tear ass for short money."

And everyone quotes psi like it has something to do with how much your internals, etc can take. 16 psi on one turbo and 16 on another are two completely different things, and produce completely different hp. An amount of psi does not have some universal effect.
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Old 04-16-2006, 12:48 AM   #59
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

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Originally Posted by kman10587
or, they can shorten the first five to improve acceleration, and then add on the sixth at the same ratio the previous fifth was. Overall gearing not changed, but acceleration improved.
As I understand it, shortening gears or having more gears to go through to get to a certain speed slows acceleration. Idealy you would have one gear going to whatever rpm it takes to get to your desired speed, since the amount of hp accelerates as you go up in rpms. So like a 20,000 rpm first gear would be best for acceleration but is not really posible in the real world.

"To make a car faster, sure you can make more TQ. OR, you can make the same (or a little less) TQ, but go to higher RPM and "take advantage of gearing"... The end result is the same, and you see it at the track all the time. Low TQ high reving imports running right with big TQ low reving V8s. ET and MPH depend on HP, not torque, even though TQ is the force moving the car. "

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=210613
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Old 04-16-2006, 04:55 AM   #60
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Re: "American" vs. "Import"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayr747
As I understand it, shortening gears or having more gears to go through to get to a certain speed slows acceleration. Idealy you would have one gear going to whatever rpm it takes to get to your desired speed, since the amount of hp accelerates as you go up in rpms. So like a 20,000 rpm first gear would be best for acceleration but is not really posible in the real world.

"To make a car faster, sure you can make more TQ. OR, you can make the same (or a little less) TQ, but go to higher RPM and "take advantage of gearing"... The end result is the same, and you see it at the track all the time. Low TQ high reving imports running right with big TQ low reving V8s. ET and MPH depend on HP, not torque, even though TQ is the force moving the car. "

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=210613
100% true, and I didn't mean to say that shortening the gears will always yield an actual acceleration gain; you have to take into account the extra time it takes to shift an extra gear. As a matter of fact, the STi's 0-60 is lower than it should be, because it requires an extra shift (2 to 3) before it can reach 60 mph, so I see where you're coming from. Fact is, though, that having six gears as opposed to five is almost always going to help more than it's going to hurt. It simply gives your engine more to work with, either improving acceleration or top speed.
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