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Car Comparisons Compare any cars and find out what every body else thinks. Just refrain from making stupid comparos like Viper vs. Geo Metro :)
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:37 AM   #46
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Isnt that's the old Clio there? designed well over a decade ago. Renault is among the safest car makers today, with a bunch of 5* Euro NCAP scorers. Not bad for a bunch of cardboard boxes
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:45 AM   #47
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I only like their Spider.
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Old 07-09-2004, 06:05 AM   #48
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Good looking, but that's about it. The Clio Williams (as in F1 team Williams) and the 172/182 are much better cars
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Old 07-09-2004, 11:06 AM   #49
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

renaultsport V6 anybody?
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Old 07-09-2004, 12:11 PM   #50
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

This thread didnt turn into what I imagined. But whatever, still interesting to read.
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:55 PM   #51
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

BTW, not tryin to add flames, but the issue about "accross the pond" is an issue because in today's business world, the largest market is...USDM, so for companies it is a concern!
And... BTW, I know this isn't an "American Forum" but let's remember the founder is American, it's medium (Internet) is an american invention, and the language used is the American venacular.
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Old 07-09-2004, 09:48 PM   #52
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

That's a very nice picture, now go and fish the Clio, Megane, Vel Satis and Laguna ones from 1999+ out and tell me what the Star rating is.
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:00 PM   #53
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

The only problem with cars in Europe is that they are driven by Europeans! j/k

Quote:
and your military goods aren't the best in the world either.
i'm not saying that they're bad,
just that they're not exactly the best.
(quote from one of the generals reviewing american products:
'my god, you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with that'..... this is true. i'll try to find the quote details)
Just because some unnamed general made some comment on an unnamed piece of equipment doesnt justify a laughably ignorant comment like that. When it comes to military technology, there is not a country or continent that would be worthy of a second place to the US.

When it comes to cars, you'll get no argument from me. From design to engineering the best cars in the world are made overseas.
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:55 PM   #54
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Re: Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1082
Drunken Monkey... "is that the best you can come up with?" um... ok,
so you can go have a car with a sterring handle and a crank starter, ok, have a nice day.
I would bet good money America has had more innovations than any other country. I'm not trying to say this to be a D*ck, it would actually be rather logical consider the size and diversity of the country.
i have to agree with this, look how diverse america is, we have people from all nations, and cultures here, which might be part of the reason for our powerful military, we share our knowledge more. although this doesnt reflect as much in our cars, it probably has something to do with our culture. anyways, the type of cars produced from each country probably has to do a lot with culture, lifestyle, and history, nothing to do with human superiority just cause you live in a certain country.
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Old 07-10-2004, 03:00 AM   #55
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Yea... I'm not trying to put down anybody here, please don't get offended... but I am sick of hearing everyone and their mom rag on America... you don't have to agree w/ everything, but like it or not, this most likely is the best place in the world.
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Old 07-10-2004, 04:50 AM   #56
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Re: Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1082
it's medium (Internet) is an american invention,


Really? Have you even heard of CERN?
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Old 07-10-2004, 09:28 AM   #57
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Re: Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1082
this most likely is the best place in the world.


I watched this thread since I did my last post...

HOW ABOUT STOP WHININ WHOSE COUNTRY IS THE GREATEST AND POST USEFUL THINGS ABOUT
RELATING CAR TECHNOLOGY AND DESIGN TO THEIR INFRASTRUCTURAL AND NATIONAL ORIGINS?

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Old 07-10-2004, 10:04 AM   #58
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Re: Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph1082
but like it or not, this most likely is the best place in the world.

Not from where I’m sitting.



Quote:
the founder is American,
No, actually Igor is eastern European.


Quote:
an issue because in today's business world, the largest market is...USDM

Wrong again.
It’s actually the Asia pacific region where two thirds of the world’s population live. Remember India and China alone make up over two fifths of the worlds population, even if large proportions of their population are living in poverty, each on its own still has a larger number of people able to afford a new car than the whole of North America.

The US % wise is only a small market, it makes up only 2.5% of the worlds population. However, since it controls about 60% of the world’s wealth and resources its population are disproportionately wealthy and seem to be great targets for well designed marketing campaigns. (that means their gullible). This means they are the world’s leaders at spending lots of money on new things they don't need, and so buy more new vehicles every year than anybody else.
This makes them a great target market for manufactors, as they only make money off selling new cars, and being able to sell them at inflated prices thanks to good marketing.
Unfortunately America is extremely protective of its own interests, and so foreign manufactors are faced with heavy tariffs that drive most of their model ranges out of a competitive price range. When combined with a general American dislike for things made in Japan and Germany or anywhere "over there" America becomes a very hard market to break into.

Honda was the first to find away in when they took very base model cars, added a pile of cheap "extras" and rebranded them and sold them through an American owned company called "Acura". Acura is now just a name, the original company has been absorbed totally by Honda, and Hondas are now in fact made in America and exported back to Japan.
Toyota followed with the Lexus brand along with Nissan and the Infinity brand. All 3 now have US market only models that are not sold anywhere else in the world, and all 3 design and manufactor complete model ranges in the US for sales else where in the world.

The Local American manufactors take a very different approach to making and selling cars in the US.
Not worried by the high import tariffs and other restrictions, yet quite keenly aware of the US's high rate of consumerism (Americans like buying things) they build vehicles to suit. That is, they look flashy and have lots of gadgets, but underneath they are often cheaply engineered and assembled, sold at highly over inflated prices and many are designed to have a short operating life as buying a second hand car does not make the manufacturer any money, but buying another new one does.


The American obsession with the "SUV" is a classic example of the US manufactors exploiting the US public. Built on a cheap, simple and primitive ladder chassis most American SUV's are sold with at least a 100% mark up. They allow a huge variety of models to be built off of a single chassis design, and while they are all fitted with lots gimmicks that sound good in a marketing Boucher, or a TV add, things like NVH levels are neglected.
American cars on the other hand are often sold with very little mark up for the manufactor, and are cheap only so that they can compete with the excessive SUV market. A market driven by public ignorance fuelled by immoral marketing. The cars maybe well built and well engineered, but their image is tarnished by the low quality mass produced SUV's from the same manufactors.




Iv been lucky enough to have worked on and driven a very wide variety of cars from a very wide variety of manufactors. Everything from Lotus to Hyundai.
And there is not one generalisation I can make about a manufactor based on its geographical location.

Every manufactor has its own "ideal car" and its own philosophy on how to build, market and sell that "ideal car". These concepts come from the company’s history and the influences of its designers, engineers and senior management. Although the country of origin plays some part in this, it is much smaller than you might think.

The Japanese for example do not build small cars because they are small people living in a small country, they build small cars because most of the Japanese automotive industry started life building cars under licence to British manufactors, or using engines and parts built under licence to British manufactors (or by simply out right copying British designs).
These designs and British ideals where then further expanded upon, and improved and enhanced until they were so much better than the original that they helped lead to the collapse of the very industry that inspired and help create them. A collapse so bad that the many classic British names ended up in the hands of Japanese manufactors, where the process was reversed. Rover was given a new lease on life by building rebadged Hondas, then developing new models off of Honda platforms, and finally building its own models from scratch (Nissan took exactly the same path using Rover designs,) (this is even more ironic when you consider the fact that Honda is the ONLY Japanese manufactor to have designed EVERY single model in its range from scratch and on its own with out using anyone else’s designs.).


Why did the British build small cars?
Who knows! My guess is it has a lot to do with the Narrow roads and general conservative nature of British engineering, and the population in general during the 50s and 60s.
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Old 07-10-2004, 11:47 AM   #59
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yep, I also think it was connected with the reconstruction after war.
the upper worker class couldn't afford big cars, but there was a market.

the first cars in europe after war weren't meant as status symbols or sports cars, there was no space for such things. of course there was mercedes as the biggest luxury car maker in europe, but the main market was focused on small, functional cars.

even if I think america didn't produce real sports cars either, their suspension and aerodynamics were so different from every european car, especially in the 70s.

I think the design wasn't just a matter of taste-

this european 70s design represents elegance, avantgarde and smoothness


Same year, US design:


the AMC is also rather smooth, but it really transports a rough, brutal image, doesn't it? You can see the blunt power coming at you -

there was no european car that delivered such a thing, ever.

But don't forget, that Renault Alpine up there has a small 1.3l engine and drives over 130mph, and it features a superior handling.
It's a sports car, the AMC isn't.

Now, the powerful brutal image had it's purpose, of course.

Since american cars weren't very pricey, such muscle cars were meant to attract younger people, imho.
And be sure that every boy in europe dreamt of muscle cars, but the european market wasn't for young people, it was either for workers or for wealthy sports car drivers.
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Old 07-10-2004, 02:45 PM   #60
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Re: Relating Cars to cultures (US - Jap - Europe)

Ok, in case you didn't know, there is no East Asian domestic Markets yet... USDM is still the largest... that is one of the reason China emerging into capitalism is a threat to the US, cause it would shift the so-called "center" of the world to their hemisphere. but as of NOW there is no Chinese Domestic Market.
I'm sorry I've never heard of CERN, but I have heard of the INTERNET, which indeed was an American innovation... and whatever you say, most peple will agree this is still the best place to live.
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