Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online!
Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! 
-
Latest | 0 Rplys
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Car Comparisons
Car Comparisons Compare any cars and find out what every body else thinks. Just refrain from making stupid comparos like Viper vs. Geo Metro :)
Closed Thread Show Printable Version Show Printable Version | Email this Page Email this Page | Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-02-2004, 12:37 AM   #61
Kurtdg19
AF Enthusiast
 
Kurtdg19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Posts: 739
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Kurtdg19
I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to buy the bottom end of that 1000hp supra engine after its been used. Mines will throw it away depending on the stress it has been through. And I definatly wouldn't buy a used 1000hp V8 bottom end either. You may just encounter a lot more problems than ever thought of...

If your driving any of these cars as daily transportation, IMO there is absolutely no reason to have such an insane amount of hp. 400hp would be more than enough. And if you drive it like it has 400hp, then it shouldn't be your daily driver in the first place cause your going to fork out the wallet more than you like. If there is any sense at all in having a car like that, then buy a 4dr sedan and drive that daily. A smart person would not be driving a car like that hard and daily.
Kurtdg19 is offline  
Old 04-02-2004, 04:25 AM   #62
Joseph1082
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lindenhurst, New York
Posts: 1,392
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Joseph1082
Re: The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

That is true, and I'm not an expert on every car, but a lot of what I hear I just take as propoganda... I have yet to SEE it with my eyes. Kurtdog is right. What your read in magazines isn't the truth, it's just what they want you to read. What I was tryin to say is that "bulletproof" parts would cost too much to mass manufacture... and if everything was like such, there'd be no parts or service industry... you can't tell me the Supra or the Evo doesn't have factory replacement parts available.
Cars are designed from the factory very specifically, and meet certain standards, including those of longevity... aka you MOD you loose your warantee. If you make a 450HP evo of course mitsubishi isn't goin to still warantee their parts because of course it is goin to break, it's not what the intended it for, if they did, it'd come stock w/ 450HP. And dont say that is ridiculous because there are plenty of cars in that range stock, and if something fails on them the manufacturer takes care of it. Hmm, the cars in those numbers are v10s and v12s. Y? No company in their right mind would produce a 450HP car that was a turbo 4cyl, it is too risky, has too much potential to break. Would it make a difference to the consumer if the Viper (i know it makes 500HP now) made 450HP from its v10 or from a turbo I4 if it still put up the same numbers. There's obviously a reason y they dont make like this right.
Joseph1082 is offline  
Old 04-04-2004, 05:19 AM   #63
aznxthuggie
AF Enthusiast
 
aznxthuggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 626, California
Posts: 1,060
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
well i think the way the japanese car companies think that they should push as much power as they can out of small displacement and smaller engines.. i mean how many japanese supercars in the past were v8s? and how many were turbo/twin turbo? almost all of them, but nowadays they are going for all motor.. like the Z n the skyline coupe (not gtr) i think they figured out that too many people don't know how to maintain a turbocharged car
aznxthuggie is offline  
Old 04-04-2004, 05:09 PM   #64
2000LS1Z28
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LaCrescenta, California
Posts: 2,191
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

Quote:
No company in their right mind would produce a 450HP car that was a turbo 4cyl, it is too risky, has too much potential to break. Would it make a difference to the consumer if the Viper (i know it makes 500HP now) made 450HP from its v10 or from a turbo I4 if it still put up the same numbers. There's obviously a reason y they dont make like this right.
I don't believe they are arguing with you about manfucaturers making a 4 cylinder car that makes 450 hp. The EVO is suppose to have forged internal work on it, like the Supra. It is a relatively small engine (2.0 liters), so it's not gonna be capable of the numbers of the Supra. Secondly, why do you think they charged soo much for these little cars? A base Lancer costs about $15K. Do you honestly believe that they made the engine with cheap connecting rods, bearings, pistons, etc...? I won't argue with you about engine longevity with a car that produces 450 hp from 2.0 liters, cause obviously it isn't gonna last as long as when it was stock (Producing 271 hp). You also state that an LS1 can produce 450 hp w/o longevity being sacrificed. That's total BS. Almost everyone knows that the stock pistons on LS1's are shit (Just like the Mach 1 mustang). Of course it's relatively easy to get those numbers N/A (Heads/cam/ bolt-ons, fuel injectors/fuel pump). The LS1 can produce more power then the EVO (Gail Banks has a kit up to 1500 hp). Stock for stock though, the LS1 engine isn't all that durable w/ 450 hp either.
__________________
2001 MR2 Spyder
Magnaflow Muffler and OBX CAI.
2000LS1Z28 is offline  
Old 04-04-2004, 05:17 PM   #65
aznxthuggie
AF Enthusiast
 
aznxthuggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 626, California
Posts: 1,060
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
the STI is not far from 450 hp, it already makes 300 and it isn't that hard to make it go to 450 hp, and also why are u guys talking about longetivity, YOU CAN CONTROL THE BOOST IN A TURBO CAR, just get a boost controller and u can practically turn off the turbo so even if u have 2387409124921hp when the turbo kicks in, it wont work til what? THE TURBO KICKS IN, if u control the turbo and it doesn't kick in til later whats the chance u will break the engine? also who drives a 450hp+ car as a daily driver if u can't control that horsepower and pay for the gas AHAHAH
aznxthuggie is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 02:13 PM   #66
Joseph1082
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lindenhurst, New York
Posts: 1,392
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Joseph1082
Re: The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

Ok... A n/a V8 LS1 can get close to 450HP with bolt-ons, and perhaps a cam, and tuning. So you are not pushing it too hard, it has 8 cylinders to spread the stress out over, as opposed to a 4-banger... and someone did brag about 1000HP in a Supra on stock internals... that is THE BS!!! I'm not saying the LS1 is so mighty, the LT1 block is stronger. But lets run 450HP evo and LS1 side by side for a while, we'll see which breaks first... that was my only point, and that the LS1 has a faster 1/4 mile time.
Joseph1082 is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 02:57 PM   #67
youngvr4
STREET RACING GURU
 
youngvr4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: seattle
Posts: 6,436
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
the supra had 949hp on stock internals. believe it or not~ripleys
__________________
youngvr4 is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 06:58 PM   #68
Joseph1082
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lindenhurst, New York
Posts: 1,392
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Joseph1082
Re: The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

Was it really on Ripley's... anyway, it must be a believe it or not... a freak, aka not the norm.
Joseph1082 is offline  
Old 04-07-2004, 07:22 PM   #69
flylwsi
AF Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 4,348
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to flylwsi
Re: The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

b/c it makes power you can't comprehend, it's a freak?
it's all about tuning.

and there are definitely more than one of these 1000hp supras on stock internals.
i've read of at LEAST 3.
flylwsi is offline  
Old 04-07-2004, 08:23 PM   #70
Joseph1082
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lindenhurst, New York
Posts: 1,392
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Joseph1082
Re: The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

But you dont hear about all the ones breaking... just to note, I am a rationlist. And you can't believe everything you hear.
Joseph1082 is offline  
Old 04-08-2004, 12:36 PM   #71
blk99bird
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mount Juliet, Tennessee
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Comparing the Evo to the Trans AM is like comparing apples to oranges. The TA is a straight line performer whereas the Evo is built for rally and twisties. So why even argue about either car. They both are awesome in their field.


Straight line performing, yes I have seen F-bodies pull high 12s completely stock on a set of MT ET Streets. Mainly on the birds it's the formulas which has been stripped down weight wise from the factory. They come around 3300lbs compared to the Trans AM weight around 3650+lbs. If you want to dispute or argue cases on stock f-bodies hitting 12s then visit www.ls1tech.com and take it with them.


Their both awesome cars and I like them both however ofcourse I favor the bird more as I own a 99 Trans AM and wouldn't trade it for anything.



And here's another site some may be interested in:

http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/...907AUCTBM.html
blk99bird is offline  
Old 04-10-2004, 12:02 PM   #72
flylwsi
AF Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 4,348
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to flylwsi
Re: The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

it's great that you can say you've seen 12 second stock fbodies, but why is my stock 12 second evo seen as a freak?

i'm sure there are just as many firebirds that can/do break as there are evos...

and for the record, the issues the older dsm's (4g63 powered eclipses/talons) had are non-existant on the evo.

the only issue that people have been having is that the stock clutch doesn't hold up to much more power than stock...

and that's it...
flylwsi is offline  
Old 04-11-2004, 03:54 PM   #73
DVS LT1
AF Enthusiast
 
DVS LT1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hazel's Town!!! ONTARIO
Posts: 893
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Both cars are great. And fast.

Nevertheless, if someone couldn't decide which car to buy based on performance and asked for advice, I think the easiest way to put it would be to say:

"Do you want a short, tall, boxy, four-door rally racing car?"

"Or do you want a long, low, & wide 2-seater sports car?"

They are two totally different images. You either want one or the other (or both! ). Most people will decide which one they want based heavily on looks. Smaller, rally/econobox-type cars are what happen to be in style now. You pull up to a car meet these days in an Lancer or WRX (let alone Evo or STi) and you're turning heads (thats if you have some exterior mods that distinguish you from the 30 other blue Subaru's). If you're like me you cruise the parking lot just looking to find the one or two groups of Pony cars and hope for a few Vettes.

As far as reliability is concerned, your engine is as dependable as you make it. As long as you select the proper components and improve failsafes as you increase HP, with regular maintenance that motor will run forever. In terms of boosted engines, the only inevitable issue becomes the seals - no big deal although somewhat of a bitch to replace (especially if you're doing it every other weekend!).
__________________

Silver 1995 Camaro Z28
Just a 383 LT1 - Naturally aspirated, 11:1 CR, off the shelf "very mild" (according to GMHTP) hydraulic street cam w/113 LSA, built 4L60E trans, T-tops, 17" C4 ZR-1/SS wheels, Flowmaster exhaust, etc...
DVS LT1 is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 12:05 AM   #74
220swift
AF Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

Took an evo w/ my z/28 from roll. The evo runs strong complements of 19lbs of boost but runs outa gear at higher speed - function of the close gearing/small tire height... Wanted to run from a stop to see what it could do out of the hole but he wouldn't do it.

It comes down to pretty much a drivers race. The LS1 has the torque advantage, evo is lighter. Spin wheels on the LS1 and the evo is gone, will have to run it down. Launch the evo @5+ grand to get the jump and soon the clutch is gone.

19lbs of boost on a 4 banger is not good in terms of long term reliabilty. Clutches seem to be a sore point (one guy said he was on his third clutch in a few months-WTF??) Couple in the not so great reliability track record of mitsu ... Time will tell....

For the cost of an evo I'd rather get a turbo Supra or a supercharged Cobra. Both have forged internals and lots of potential for big HP... Both will smoke the evo and can take on additional boost without breaking a sweat. The LS1 fbody is the best bang for the buck. GM corked up the fbody LS1 to keep it out of vette territory (same engine). Its deadly with just an intake, headers and exhaust.

Bottom line is you can make even a honda civic run like a bat out of hell with high boost or NOS but it won't last... A naturally aspirated larger displacement engine is not working nearly as hard and still putting out higher output.

Its just a matter of physics...
220swift is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 04:35 PM   #75
DVS LT1
AF Enthusiast
 
DVS LT1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hazel's Town!!! ONTARIO
Posts: 893
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Anything will last long if you build it to last - V8, V6, I4, H4 - whatever. I don't know much about the Evo (its not even available/legal in Canada ) but I'd find it hard to believe its engine does not have some forged internals (either just the pistons or rods or crank etc...) or pretty strong cast components. And keep in mind there are a number of good performance machine shops out there that argue using certain cast aluminum pistons or cast iron cranks outweigh the benefits of using certain forged materials. Then you've got an entire argument between different types of forged metals - 4130 is weaker than 5130 yet 4340 tends to benefit more from the forging process, yada yada...

You don't necessarily kill an engine by running high amounts of boost. The seals on the other hand will get done in much faster but if the engine is setup properly you can run as much boost as desired, safely.

Take a stock F-Body for instance. If you want to bolt on a blower without changing anything else go ahead.

You can run 5-6 psi of boost safely on a stock setup with the only real change being a switch to high octane gas.

If you want to run 8-9 psi safely on that stock motor - no problem, but you'll need an intercooled blower. It might be possible with a non-intercooled blower but the timing will surely need to be retarded, higher octane gas used, and you'd better have a modified and very efficient engine cooling system (this would NOT be the safe way of doing it!).

Feel like 14-15 psi? Go for it - although this time you will definitely have to swap in some low compression pistons, and they'd probably need to be forged (or a stronger cast compound). Same goes for the connecting rods and crankshaft. But anything is possible, and safe to run provided that its setup properly.

I don't see a factory Evo with warranty putting out whatever amount of boost it does and not being able to handle it over the long-term course of its life. And most of the time cars like these are overbuilt in terms of tolerances, so sneaking out 2 or 3 more psi out of the system is no big deal.
__________________

Silver 1995 Camaro Z28
Just a 383 LT1 - Naturally aspirated, 11:1 CR, off the shelf "very mild" (according to GMHTP) hydraulic street cam w/113 LSA, built 4L60E trans, T-tops, 17" C4 ZR-1/SS wheels, Flowmaster exhaust, etc...
DVS LT1 is offline  
 
Closed Thread

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD


Bookmarks
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Car Comparisons

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:26 PM.

Community Participation Guidelines | How to use your User Control Panel

Powered by: vBulletin | Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
 
 
no new posts