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Old 12-08-2003, 01:00 AM   #106
VenomInMyVeins
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Re: z06 vs modena

I'm not sure whether it was the engine or cg, but I believe it was the cg. They do have a machine to test that... For double decker busses in england they test the bus' cg fully loaded on the top only and empty with a machine that tests rotational inertia vs weight to determine where the cg sits so that it doesn't flip.
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Old 12-08-2003, 04:45 AM   #107
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deakins
You obviously don't understand the concept of slip angles.
You are in no position to attempt and say I don't understand anything. Great argument though, too bad you havent proven anything with that gem of yours. As to slip angles affecting the direction the car travels, the entire contact patch is affected by this, of course not evenly, nothing that will alter the cars steering either way.
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Old 12-08-2003, 08:34 AM   #108
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: z06 vs modena

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Originally Posted by FYRHWK1
You are in no position to attempt and say I don't understand anything. Great argument though, too bad you havent proven anything with that gem of yours.
How many times have I proven you wrong here at af?

Quote:
As to slip angles affecting the direction the car travels, the entire contact patch is affected by this, of course not evenly, nothing that will alter the cars steering either way.
"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." W. G. McAdoo.
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Old 12-08-2003, 10:23 AM   #109
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deakins
How many times have I proven you wrong here at af?



"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." W. G. McAdoo.
proven me wrong? I've yet to see you even come close. Thanks for the advice, but this is entertaining.
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Old 12-08-2003, 11:42 AM   #110
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Re: Re: z06 vs modena

People in this forum need to either read the entire post, or read more carefully. I never ragged on the 360, and I do not "worship" any car.

What I did was point out an issue that the engineers on both these vehicles had to face, and a design "disadvantage" of mid engine/rear drive cars. Also, I pointed out that Ferrari IMO does a better than average job, and that IMO Ford has done an even better job.

Finally, I mentioned that I preferred the GT to the Modena, but I also mentioned that the Modena was a great car. I hope this clarifys things adequately.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Deakins
You rag on the 360 because of it's powertrain layout, but worship the GT when they infact have the exact same powertrain layout?
Doesn't that sound a wee bit odd to you?
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Old 12-08-2003, 11:49 AM   #111
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Re: z06 vs modena

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Originally Posted by OoNismoO
the 360 modena is definately not top heavy, where are you getting this info? are you just looking at the engine and assuming it is? those two red things that says ferrari on top are just manifolds, most of the weight is down where the cylinders are, and if you actually looked at one in person, they re like a foot below the manifold, thats pretty damn low if you ask me. with the manifold, its not even that high either.

Once again, respectfully, I am simply repeating what Ferrari themselves said in the past. Within the car itself the engine sits, relatively speaking, high within a mid-engined car. Please note that this takes into account how high the actual car itself is as well.

If you care to do the research, then you will see this is one of the reasons Ferrari gave for ditching the boxer style engine as it is was forced to sit even higher within the car due to it's greater width. I did not "Assume" anything.

The Modena and the earlier 348/355 overcame a lot of these problems by switching to a V design engine rather than the boxer's used by the Ferrari mid engine cars that were it's immediate predecessors.
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Old 12-08-2003, 12:04 PM   #112
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Re: Re: Re: z06 vs modena

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Originally Posted by syr74
People in this forum need to either read the entire post, or read more carefully. I never ragged on the 360, and I do not "worship" any car.

What I did was point out an issue that the engineers on both these vehicles had to face, and a design "disadvantage" of mid engine/rear drive cars. Also, I pointed out that Ferrari IMO does a better than average job, and that IMO Ford has done an even better job.

Finally, I mentioned that I preferred the GT to the Modena, but I also mentioned that the Modena was a great car. I hope this clarifys things adequately.
So exaggerated a bit, the point still stands.
Please explain why the GT/GT40's powertrain layout is better, or different for that matter.
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Old 12-08-2003, 02:59 PM   #113
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Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by syr74
Once again, respectfully, I am simply repeating what Ferrari themselves said in the past. Within the car itself the engine sits, relatively speaking, high within a mid-engined car. Please note that this takes into account how high the actual car itself is as well.

If you care to do the research, then you will see this is one of the reasons Ferrari gave for ditching the boxer style engine as it is was forced to sit even higher within the car due to it's greater width. I did not "Assume" anything.

The Modena and the earlier 348/355 overcame a lot of these problems by switching to a V design engine rather than the boxer's used by the Ferrari mid engine cars that were it's immediate predecessors.
ok so the older ferraris had this problem with its boxer style engine, but the modena basically overcame this problem, so what are you trying to say? i see that the older ferraris had this problem, but we re talking about the modena here.
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:52 AM   #114
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Re: z06 vs modena

For Deakins. It has been said more than once that compared to the Modena the GT is very calm and settled in the way it handles. This is notable because it was also pointed out that this is in contrast to that famous "twitchy" feel mid engine Ferrari's have due to what we have been discussing.

I hate to rely on an article, but this isn't a GTO And, considering I have heard this stated more than once by men whose opinion I respect I am willing to accept it. I would argue that I exaggerated the point as I clearly pointed out that the Modena was much better than previous Ferrari's, and only suffered from a mild case of "nerves".

As to what Ford did to Make the GT feel so "calm" compared to the Modena or other mid engine cars like it I cannot say. Nobody I am aware of has ever asked Ford how they approached that issue.

The reason I am so impressed by Ford SVT's apparent ability to overcome this issue is that the GT uses a larger and taller engine design than the Modena, which should accomplish the opposite of what was done with the GT's handling.

For Nismo, put quickly and simply, the Modena overcame some, even most, of the obstacles but not all as alluded to above. It is an awesome car that undoubtedly does everything quite well, but this is an issue every mid engine design faces. Yes, it is much better than previous mid engined Farrari's in this respedct, and IMO better than average.

I am not slamming any chassis design, I was simply pointing out that every chassis design has it's drawbacks...all of them. Occasionally, they are dealt with so well they are no longer noticeable as in the new GT. But, that does not mean that the engineers don't have to figure out how to overcome them in the first place..

Also, some people do like this "nervous" feel even though it is never going to help track times. (Not that there is anything wrong with the Ferrari's track times) Ferrari may even consider it something of a character trait of their mid engine cars by now.
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:34 AM   #115
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well obviously there isnt enough of that issue, or even close to it, for the 360 to have that problem. from what ive read, its one of best performing midengined cars out there capable of achieving 1.50+g. if it even had the slightest bit of this problem, then they would of addressed it in almost every article, but its not even close, so they never say anything about it. i see what you re saying about the traits of midengined cars, but thats what almost all enthusiasts know about. i know that there are undesireable traits to midengined cars, but the 360 has one of the least undisired traits.
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:22 PM   #116
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Re: z06 vs modena

Umm.... 1.50G?? Are you kidding me Nismo? Try .96G. Still respectable, but a z06 (04 gets .99g) and srt10 (1.15g) get higher. But then again skidpad isn't everything as far as handling. But if you're going to compare it by skidpad there are many better, but does have one of the best skidpads ratings ferrari's ever gotten
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Old 12-09-2003, 04:32 PM   #117
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Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrino
IR/IR04M3 let me be the first to say welcome to the forums....i was really impresed by your posts...very well written...well informed and easy to read...btw the skater analogy was perfcet

its also nice that you bring verifiable info and you are not biased(very rare araound here)

and i love the article you posted....the best comparisons are only side by side and with a profesional driver...

hope you stay around the forums
I couldn't agree more. I hope you stick around as well, we could use someone like you. I would also like to say that you pretty much ended this debate.

Quote:
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"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." W. G. McAdoo.
How true, becuase they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience and then people somethimes have trouble telling the difference.
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Old 12-09-2003, 07:07 PM   #118
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Re: Re: z06 vs modena

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Originally Posted by VenomInMyVeins
Umm.... 1.50G?? Are you kidding me Nismo? Try .96G. Still respectable, but a z06 (04 gets .99g) and srt10 (1.15g) get higher. But then again skidpad isn't everything as far as handling. But if you're going to compare it by skidpad there are many better, but does have one of the best skidpads ratings ferrari's ever gotten
calm down buddy lol..... i said its capable of 1.50g, those are from track ready modenas, they just modified them a bit for track use, kinda like those modified cars for driving schools. im sure the 360 challenge stradale can do 1+g though. yea i know there are more ways to measure a cars handling ability, but even that isnt always gonna tell the whole story.
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Old 12-10-2003, 09:20 PM   #119
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Re: z06 vs modena

We are comparing:
Ferrari VS GM
hahahhahahahahahahahaah......lol
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Old 12-11-2003, 12:55 PM   #120
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Re: Re: z06 vs modena

Quote:
Originally Posted by MexSiR
We are comparing:
Ferrari VS GM
hahahhahahahahahahahaah......lol
Why do people insist that anything being compared to a ferarri is as absured of a comparision there can be? Sure it is a sports car built by a great company indeed, but mind you, there are many good sport cars out there capable of competing with the almighty ferarri. A Z06 is far from a ridiculous comparision against a 360 Modena. As different these two cars may be, their perhaps the closest you can get in comparision. I would still like to see a lap time for both of these cars if anybody can find one. I bet they would be very close.
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