random car stuff

[tokes99]

yes, friend at school got me a copy of the herald belker sketching gnomon dvd, which was helpful and a little comforting because it made me realize that these guys do crappy sketches just like i do the real difference is turning that crappy sketch into something golden...

i am in the midwest which is a long way from cali but i figure i after school i will move out west work on my porfolio to position myself to get a job with the swoosh

i think the beauty of drawing for me is after all the messing up and crappiness when i finally manage churn out something halfway decent i can stand back a little and see progress that is what i enjoy

[bonzelite]

Originally Posted by tokes99

i think the beauty of drawing for me is after all the messing up and crappiness when i finally manage churn out something halfway decent i can stand back a little and see progress that is what i enjoy

YES. this is put well. you said a lot there. that is what makes it worth it. the hard work, the awful sketches, the staying up late, the fatigue, the frustration, the "takes longer than i ever thought" all pays off when you nail it. that is why i love/ hate it.

yes. belker is AWESOME. i have some copies of his work up in my office. i think he was at GM or something before. he's an industrial designer. and a very amazing designer/ illustrator. i admire his work highly.

if you ever need a place to stay to check out/ visit socal, you can sleep on the couch here, provided you let me know when and how long you will visit. car rental is expensive enough.

median rents for a 2bdrm apt in LA are now $1300-$1500/mo. so you'd need a roommate. look in classifieds or college bulletin boards. there are cheaper alternatives, too, like renting out a single room in a house. sometimes you can nab a good deal for like $500-$600/mo for that. i rented out a room in my house for only $300/mo to a friend, before my g/f moved in.

also, downtown LA has millions of square feet of affordable loft spaces. i'd look there first, actually, were i fresh from out of town.

[tokes99]

that would be very cool of you, but it will be a while before a could take you up on it, thanks for the offer though...

i believe belker worked for mercedes before he bolted for the movies, he has a really unique style that borders illustration and realism, during a computer class i had a couples semesters ago i would come in and stare at his site for half the class i do not know how i passed it...

yeah improvement is a big motivation for me especially when i see stuff on the net from that literally blows me away everyday, that is why i never get tired of design/drawing there is always something to learn, improve upon, someone/thing new to get inspired by

[bonzelite]

yep.

[knightvision]

Originally Posted by tokes99

y

i think the beauty of drawing for me is after all the messing up and crappiness when i finally manage churn out something halfway decent i can stand back a little and see progress that is what i enjoy

I totally agree.

The strange thing is, when I look at it myself, I'm proud and satisfied. (if it is good in my oppinion.)

If I then show it to my parents, they don't mind. "The wheels are too big" is all my father said to my latest contest entry. Or " I don't think they would built it".
And they are serious with their oppinion. They don't make jokes. That always leads me to question myself how good it really is. Why I did it. I did it for me, for sure. But if the public doesn't like it, or gives no feedback, what is it worth? It's worth for me at the beginning. But the reaction of others can take or give it more worth. More or less satisfaction, more or less money...

Art is hard to rate, hard to assess.

This forum, with professionals like you bonz, or guys who design cars too, like you, tokes, helps a lot to get a feel for that.

[bonzelite]

knight, had i listened to a lot of my parents' criticisms of my art over the years, i would not be where i am now. so realize they are not able to relate to your desires, are perhaps a bit jealous of your talents, and follow your own bliss. this is not always easy, though, as the opinions of our parents can often mean more to us than we would like to admit.

of note, as well, it is important to compete with others in this globalized capitalism. it is very hard. therefore, it is important to be able to sell your services and become in-demand. this is just simply going to happen by hard work through constant practice of drawing and designing. in time, your own style and skill will start to appeal to others, sometimes in ways you cannot expect. be true to what you are really about inside. and they will come knocking at your door --eventually.

life is more about endurance than sprinting: fast rises or lucky shortcuts to the top are often tenuous ventures at best. however, gradual paces ahead to quality, and solid skill, and love of the craft, are the equity postions in life. draw what you want to. be who you really are. the powers above will notice this and help you along. even when you think it is not true.

unfortunately, at times, remarks of a parent or sibling about our achievements can be the worst kind of words to hear: often, it is members of our own families that have the worst kind of support, the most harmful words, the most abusive of ways. families can often be rife with jealousy, resentment, emotional abuse, verbal abuse. often, a family upbringing is something to get thousands of miles away from. in my view, when you leave home, REALLY leave. move to the big intimidating city and grow up fast. a sheltered existence in "anywhere USA," or smalltown/ anyplace, will only result in a boring and mediocre day-to-day malaise. go to the city and compete. and invest in yourself and property. the artist's path is often a hardcore lesson in brutality of conditions, of discomfort. and this will harden you, and give you an edge. you can then become unstoppable, even when all of the doors are closing around you.

have a solidarity of mind and spirit, and just move on. sail your ship to your own destiny. you are the captain; it is your journey. you cannot live for your parents. or anybody else. life is happening right now before your eyes, and it is your own. carpe diem.

[grantrl78]

Knightvision,
I agree with bonzelite.
Also THE most brutal ones are family
members who happen to be pro illustrators.
They can be friggin assassins !!!!

I have an uncle who has been working in illustration for 30 years.
His name is richard waldrep. He pretty much verbally destroyed my
attempt at a portfolio when I was in highschool.
It hurt bad because I worshiped him. From what I have learned about his work, he pretty much rips
off a german guy called JC Leyendecker.
Very traditional strict drawing and painting style that
I really wanted to copy and learn from.
He could have taught me so much about illustration and art but decided
to discourage me. I still really don't understand his reasons. And at 27, I
still have all of his negative crap floating around in my head.
His work is really good though. But kind of out of style these days.
It even looks kind of digital. But it was done with airbrush and guashe.
I am still so jealous. That prick!!!!
Sometimes I feel like he was doing me a favor. Because he knows that art is too tough. Other times
I know he did it because he is a b@st@rd.
But what I do is try and use his negative stuff as fuel.

[bonzelite]

grant, your uncle's stuff is tight. technical. and well executed. it is dated, though. i agree with you. it is a bit "staid." it may have been really cool ten to fifteen years ago. today, it is a bit too conservative.

your story only confirms what i said, as you agree. what is awful about it is that very often, even a passing comment to a younger artist-to-be can utterly ruin that young person. a person at 9, 10, 13, 16 yrs old, etc... is very fragile and impressionable. and they hold very highly the opinions of adults. particularly family.

the irony is that family is often (not always) the worst possible place to get feedback and support from. very often, the shortcomings of your dad, mom, uncle, are projected directly upon the child, ie, YOU. instead of support, verbal abuse is often levied AGAINST the family itself in the form of little put-downs and remarks that leave you feeling like shit.

the truth is that often, the parent (or parent figure) is resentful of the child's seemingly bright future and ample time to make a life for themselves. VERY OFTEN it is the parent whose life has "passed them by" that hates and envies the children who have only time and endless possibilities.

it is VITAL that the child (in this case you and me) recover our sense of "innocence," and carry on regardless of attacks. you will begin to see, too, that many of your friends may also not like it when you are actually making something of yourself.

my mother, to this day, barely makes any supportive comments to me. instead she resorts to verbal abuse and "marginalizing" comments about what i am doing, or what i have "not" done. what is often worse than overly-critical comments are NONE. this seemingly harmless aloofness is called "witholding." and this is very abusive. it creates the feeling that you do not matter. as if what you are doing matters zero. you are invisible. your efforts are pointless.
i get this, as well.

my grand response to all of this crap is to succeed, and do things that "cannot be done," despite what others think of me. and this is never-ending. every stage of life has a new and different set of playing fields. what once worked ten years ago now does not really work or matter. so it is very vital to be flexible in an often inflexible world of opinions and judgements. yet the world constantly changes.

if YOU change "too much" for your parents or friends, they see you as a traitor. if you begin to outpace and outperform these people, as well, you are hated for it. and they may say you are just "lucky." and this is bullshit all over again.

you create your own luck. by taking care of the present and being very sober and aware of what you are doing, you will steer your ship IN THE MOMENT and your future will come to meet you. nevermind what naysayers may do or say: they are spiritually dead people. and they are going NOWHERE.

i speak from my heart and from brutal experience. and you seem overdue and ready to hear it. and if you've heard it before, then hear it again.

[bonzelite]

another thing, too, grant, you are 27 --a pivotal age, generally. by that age i was gnarly for going pro. i was semi-pro in atlanta, ga, making a decent living for once in my life. and i stuck with it, despite the hardships of rejection and unpredictalbe income. it was my dream and reality.

i will tell you if you want it bad, you will do it. at 27, you are at a critical period right now, as you are setting up choices and habits that will impact the entire decade of your 30's. do not take it lightly. pace yourself for 30 or 31 and set reachable goals in your art. consider moving away and starting over. you will know what to do if you are brutally honest with yourself. do not "fall into" some job or career that you really don't want. be honest. you must be. else you will be living a lie.

we are all different, i know. what i did worked for me at specific moments in my life. i moved away finally at 29, a bit old, but just my point -- had i stayed any longer, i may have never really changed. the 30's have a way of equalizing people: they either really begin to accel, or they stagnate and write themselves the same script year after year after year.

often, when i visit back east, so many neighbors and peers are just stuck in the same old boring crap that they were doing in their twenties. i am 35 now. and my life has drastically changed because i pursued my destiny to be a professional illustrator. it is often not easy. but is better. were it so easy, then everyone would do it. but it is challenging and requires a skill that few ever have. and it continues to get even better the farther in it i go.

[tokes99]

grant is that your uncle's stuff, hot diggity that ish is tight! it does really look like it was done digitally, i would not worry about age, it seems as long as a person has passion, talent, and uniqueness there always will be a place to fit in, a friend of mine became a designer with no formal training at 30 and from an online q&a with feng zhu someone asked him about getting into the business with a late start:

You are 29? Not a problem! It’s never too late to get into anything. Here’s a little story that might inspire you. If you have the Art of Episode 3 book, look for an artist named Sang Jun Lee. Believe it or not, he didn’t do any drawings (and I mean none), before attending college in the U.S. After he got an internship at ILM, he drew like crazy. Within only 2-3 years, he has reached the level he’s at now….which is pretty amazing! He draws like a seasoned pro. What a great inspiration huh?

i guess i have been lucky, people around me have always been supportive of my "artistic" aspirations, even though they generally either do not get what it is that i have done or do not particularly like the design...

i feel in many ways opposite to bonzelite's opinion, by and large people want to see the people around them succeed and want the best for others, and many times discourage out of concern i think, i liken art&design to sports in that it is very competitve and is difficult to and limited in the number of people who are able to "make it", sometimes it is because people have been down these paths and know what could be ahead that they desire to steer others away not realizing that they are being cold, hurtful, chiping away at the psyche of their loved ones...

and just like sports, everyone is a critic, but unlike sports art is vaguely defined, if a kid is for most it is hard to be encouraging when you do not understand the thing the person you care about is pursuing, like i said we all would want the best for those we care about, throughout history being a great artist has not equalled success in fact if you asked someone born in modern times who there favorite artist or designer was they would likely name a muscian of fashion label, in many ways art/design is an invisible occupation to those who art in or interested in it...i would say the picture that comes into people's mind when the mention of a graphic artist is that of the "starving or struggling" one...

i do not believe that most family members do any of this out of jealousy or resentment, but very likely it is probably out ignorance or wanting real or tangible success for those around us...

like when i was in high school i played football and basketball my father did not like it because of it violence, injuries, high risk low reward properties (he did not really care fot American football at all), therefore he would have no part in it (football), when i graduated i was going to thinking about walking-on to the college squad and he basically forbid me to do so, it was not out of jealousy or resentment it was just that they did not feel sports were a realistic career path

knightvision, i would not worry about family members criticizing, not liking, or understanding your designs because (1) you do it because you like to do it (2) if you do stuff that is far out people usually are not ready for it

as for assessing where you are and how far you have progressed they are many ways to do so, you can keep sketchbooks to track your progress and places like this forum are some of the best resources out there to get feedback and guage where you stand, no one learns in a vaccuum we are all influenced by life, other people and their work past and present, etc.

[grantrl78]

Damn it is interesting to read both of your takes on the same subject!
You two are awesome!
Both of you make great points! Both sides seem very valid. This is something that will bother the hell out of me. I think I need to call him.
I am a little more mature than I was ten years ago. I will probably learn alot from a conversation with him. But man I dread it.

[bonzelite]

tokes adds excellent points to this dialogue. his experience somewhat differs from mine; somewhat parallels it: both experiences have truth in them, as it is true that if somebody cannot relate to a certain interest, like art or dance or music, they will think it is not "valid." and this is out of pure ignorance, as tokes points out.

it is up to the individual artist to look at what may be going on in their situation. with mine, it was largely an emotionally abusive foundation, with some encouragement along the way.

with others, they may encounter very little emotional abuse, and receive much support from family. i was not really brought up that way, though. and many share in my experience, as well as tokes'. i did point out briefly that not every case is the same.

with grant, i felt a familiar pattern emerging from what he was saying. and i paralleled it with mine. in many cases, per tokes' take on it, it is the very concern of insecurity for the child in liking "art" that destroys that ambition in the child. the seemingly "ignorant care" can, and does, deflate, often destroys, the inner child/ artist. "you'r not going to be no ballerina. you need to find a job" --this is toxic caring.

definitely, many families are very "nuclear" and supportive and raise well-adjusted children. despite what i said earlier, i turned out ok, with expected baggage that i had to sort out. and continue to sort out. many artistic people are damaged. and in ways, this gives them an edge that would otherwise not exist. and the art is a perfect outlet for this damage. like in my case, i often drew scenes of graphic violence and chaos, raising concern among teachers and adults when i was very young. andin some ways, i have not changed much: i storyboarded many graphically violent action scenes in "Stealth." and i loved it. i had a ball.

[grantrl78]

Bonzelite I am indeed damaged - in the head

Stealth looks like it will be good! Bet it was fun to do! You should
post some of em! That has to be a freakin sweet job!

Speaking of my damaged mind, I have a question. I do jobs that
take 3 hours to crank out. I have a list of 15. Is 30 dollars a job really
dumb for me to take?
They involve alot of emailing and changes and might take longer.
These orders all involve 100's of t-shirts.
I am not making anything that will sell in a
museum but I know my boss is getting rich off of this kind of deal.
How should I deal with this business stuff! I suck at it so bad!

[bonzelite]

Originally Posted by grantrl78

Bonzelite I am indeed damaged - in the head

Stealth looks like it will be good! Bet it was fun to do! You should
post some of em! That has to be a freakin sweet job!

Speaking of my damaged mind, I have a question. I do jobs that
take 3 hours to crank out. I have a list of 15. Is 30 dollars a job really
dumb for me to take?
They involve alot of emailing and changes and might take longer.
These orders all involve 100's of t-shirts.
I am not making anything that will sell in a
museum but I know my boss is getting rich off of this kind of deal.
How should I deal with this business stuff! I suck at it so bad!

yeah. i hope stealth is a good as it looks. it will probably be a pretty decent film.
lol about your damaged head.
about the t-shirt job: to me, that is rape. i know this guy will not have a hollywood movie budget to dip into to pay his people. and he is avoiding paying his "outsourced" labor too much --the essence of global capitalism: pay 3rd world people pennies on the dollar to maximize profit, minimize overhead. and this is exactly what he is doing to you.
for the work you will put into the job, with all of its changes and headaches, you are making shit. but that is my view.
if you have not done many jobs before, and you are not in a major city where there are all kinds of levels of work, by the shitloads, then it might be "ok."
if 3 hours/shirt/job is all you make, then in the best-case, you make $10/hr.
if each job has a few changes, making them out to be maybe 4 or 5 hrs/job, then you instantly make less and less the more you do: you may end up pocketing 5-7 dollars/hr. you can make that working at Best Buy or Starbucks. and you fork over only your time, not your creativity, for those jobs. and they're brainless jobs.
also, much of the work i do is not "museum quality," as it is hashed out so quickly that i do not even want to show it later to anyone. so drop that idea.
(for example, i can do a "photorealist" drawing of a car, and, to a commercial storyboard client, it is nice, but useless --worth nothing. i can then actually help them to plot out a commercial frame-by-frame, do shitty sketches that looked like i was drunk, and i am payed handsomely). quality of craftsmanship and skill does not always mean "you can get payed higher."

most work anyone ever does is not museum quality. often, that kind of work pays less, initially, because you come off as a "starving" artist. and, if you get into the gallery scene, it is very political, pretentious, and seldom about talent.
you will often make the most and easiest money from jobs where you don't do much labor or "art." you will be payed more for your intellectual brain-content, and less for a "museum like painting."

often, i have sat around all day waiting for a client to meet with me, and i draw nothing for about 7 hours. this happens actually semi-regularly --and i charge them for it, full price. for waiting.
sometimes i will punish a client with a bigger bill because the producer was an asshole, and made it difficult for me park my car.
sometimes i will finish a job too soon, and hold the artwork for hours so i do not give the client the idea that they can expect that swift service every time, as many jobs are case-by-case, many taking LONGER than i thought.

i could go on and on about this.

assess what you want to do in life. what do you want out of your art? to be in a museum? if so, then do that kind of work, regardless of pay. true "art" should be "invaluable" or "valueless." it should be created regardless of whether or not you want a paycheck.

if you want an immediate means of being payed, find a highly skilled niche and fill it. it will be competitive and capitalistic and very brutal. and it will be for money primarily. like storyboarding. or doing conceptual art for films: some really great stuff is created there, but is done PRIMARILY for income purposes only. posterity is last.

if you love cars, strive to be designer. i dunno what you want or expect out of your art, but i think you should have clear ideas of what that is. and you cannot know every possible future event that it may lead to, either. but that is the fun of it. you don't really quite know, but you have a general idea.

[grantrl78]

Damn - thanx bonzelite !!!
I really appreciate your amazing answers!!

"for the work you will put into the job, with all of its changes and headaches, you are making shit. but that is my view. " Man I agree.
I just wish this guy would be fair with me. He gets so offended when I try to discuss it with him.

Man your work sounds really cool!
I can only imagine how awesome it must be to
storyboard for movies!
Your experience is so valuable.
I have so much to learn about business period.
And appreciate how you are willing to discuss this stuff with me.