Understeer!!!

[Dezoris]

Originally posted by Racing Rice


I agree youll probably love it compared to stock, the bar is small enough so that you will still have understeer, but not near as much. Itll make the car feel a little more predictable, Ill probably be wishing I did the same thing pretty soon. We'll see. You probably wont have to worry about subframe tear out with a smaller bar like that either.

Especially since the brackets and bar were designed for it.

Actually I am not so worried about my frame any more on my car as the stress it will put on the control arm bushings (which happen to be my Kmac camber kits) Man I have some work to do next year

Actually my sub frame tear was caused, maunly by the bar forcing the arm off the bushings on the left so the left arm moved toward the front of the car pulling the right side of the bar toward the rear, but even before then the bar was pulling away.

To be honest R. Rice I don't think the Civic frame was designed for a large bar in the rear. Why? well just think of tyhe physics of the bar.
Where is all the stress going? Right to the subframe. The control arm moves up or down the bar pushes pulls through the bushings transferring to the opposite control arm, all that weight transfer of the bar is stress to the sub frame, and that is why you see the combo kits now. But that is fine to beef up the two pickup points, but as you saw the pullout is an issue and so is the tear away from the frame, which, is common. I am going to have my subframe rewelded over the factory welds just in case. Beacuse I have heard how fast Neuspeed, replaces those!! Actually a tech a Greddy told me about the problem and then Neuspeed conseded it "was" but has been rectified with the new brackets.
I don't trust them, nor any bracket.

[Drocca91]

ive been told if you tighten the rear you will eliminate understeer! thats why im saying on my rear sway!

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic
DX's are barless, front and back, so I'd only have the rear sway for now once I get it soon here.

Just out of curiosity, what is subframe tearout?

Damn.. I wandered about the front swaybar... I figured they have changed that but I guess not.. If I were you.. I would find a EX bar.. its 22mm it would work great in your car.

Ill led dez explain the subframe tearout is.. Since he's got the experience in this.. He can put up some pics for you too.. well kinda.. he had his bolts tear out of the subframe..

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally posted by Racing Rice


Damn.. I wandered about the front swaybar... I figured they have changed that but I guess not.. If I were you.. I would find a EX bar.. its 22mm it would work great in your car.

Ill led dez explain the subframe tearout is.. Since he's got the experience in this.. He can put up some pics for you too.. well kinda.. he had his bolts tear out of the subframe..

Damn, sounds pretty serious then, yeah, I'd love an explanation of what it is, bolts ripping out doean't sound very good...

You mention a 22mm bar, your meaning for the front, right? I'm going to hopefully pick up the bar tomorrow, then get the hardware for it in the next week or so (any related bolts/screws/washers to it, bushings, the center support brace for the bar, and endlinks if it doesn't already come with any) Once I get it on, I'll then figure out if a front sway is nessacery anytime soon, or not. The rear sway is a pretty easy mod for my '00 DX coupe it looks like, but I'm real optemistic at how well putting a front sway on my car would be... But I think it is possible for the front. I just can't wait to get the rear sway on, and test her out! If I have a rear tiebar, that shouldn't interfere clearance wise with the rear sawybar, should it? Just curious on that....

[Dezoris]

That is a picture of a common problem with sway bars, and the larger in diameter they are the more stress they put on the mounting points.

I dicussed with racing rice about how to prevent it, and mainly anyone who installs one should have larger washers on either one or both sides of the frame where the mounting bolts are. The metal is flimsy, and by using larger washers you are distrubuting the stress/pressure to a larger area, which makes the bar more effective, and the life of your sub frame will be greatly increased.

Now above those holes where the bar mounts you will see the factory welds where the sub-frame connects to the frame, those welds have been known to tear and the sub frame pulls from the frame, although this is not as common these are things to watch for.

I always have people thinking I am full of shit when, I bring up possible issues like this. Why because people that have their shit put on for them who really don't care or tune their car would never know whether this was happening or not, so they always say, "you won't have problems"

So I guess I am just making you aware, and telling you what you need to watch for or try to prevent. With the stock bar, sub frame weld tears will not even be an issue, just use the larger washers on the frame, that will almost keep it void of all possible tear out.

[Dezoris]

Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic


Damn, sounds pretty serious then, yeah, I'd love an explanation of what it is, bolts ripping out doean't sound very good...

You mention a 22mm bar, your meaning for the front, right? I'm going to hopefully pick up the bar tomorrow, then get the hardware for it in the next week or so (any related bolts/screws/washers to it, bushings, the center support brace for the bar, and endlinks if it doesn't already come with any) Once I get it on, I'll then figure out if a front sway is nessacery anytime soon, or not. The rear sway is a pretty easy mod for my '00 DX coupe it looks like, but I'm real optemistic at how well putting a front sway on my car would be... But I think it is possible for the front. I just can't wait to get the rear sway on, and test her out! If I have a rear tiebar, that shouldn't interfere clearance wise with the rear sawybar, should it? Just curious on that....

what kind of tie bar? The way the Si bar mounts it should not be an issue

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally posted by Dezoris


what kind of tie bar? The way the Si bar mounts it should not be an issue

Thanks for the above info on the tearout. Yeah, people may not experience it, but for those that do, it's good for everyone to know about it, just in case.

The tie bar I have is in my pic I posted of it (I think in this forum?) Well I'll post it up again anyways, but it's an Arospeed type/style bar... =\

[Dezoris]

that bar should fit fine

[SilverY2KCivic]

Well I got the '99 Si bar yesterday from off my friend, it came with the end links, so that'll save me a bit of $$$ there. All I need to get to put it on, are the mounting brackets, and I'm set. I was at an import shop last night, and was asking them what parts I'd need to install the swaybar, besides the endlinks and the bar itself, and so the guy for no charge put my car up on a lift, to see for sure if the bar would line up with my suspension, and if it would clear my tiebar without any problems, and the bar will fit PERFECTLY...! I'll pick up the brackets from the local Honda dealership in the next cuple of days (only $10 for them) and then I hope to hve the bar installed by X-mas, hopefully next weekend maybe if I have time. The bar seems thin, but that's compared to say a 21mm thick Skunk2 rear sway one on my friend's got for his '92 Si hatch back yesterday. But he's thinking of having the mounting brackets welded on once bolted on, to help minimize the chance of tearout... =\ I'm glad I won't have to worry about that.

[texan]

Congrats SilverY2KCivic! Let us know how the car feels after install, and remember not to push it too hard until you have a feel for it's new balance.

I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are. I never thought new seats could make the car feel so much better, it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally posted by texan
Congrats SilverY2KCivic! Let us know how the car feels after install, and remember not to push it too hard until you have a feel for it's new balance.

I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are. I never thought new seats could make the car feel so much better, it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.

Thanks man. Yeah, I hear ya', can't get crazy with the feel after the sway install, until I'm full aware of it's new feel it'll have.

And congrats on the new seats, nothing like fitting in your car like a glove to be better connected to it. How much did you get the seats for? I want those exact seats for my ride eventually.

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by texan
..I just installed my new Sparco Torino's this weekend, and am as excited as you are.... it's almost as though it has a new suspension with how much more connected and planted the driving position is.

Dang thats what I need... Im tired of sliding out of my seat.. I dont get why the 6th Gen seats suck so bad.. That are worse then the 5th Gens.

[BlackBeauty92]

i got Suspension Techniques rear sway bar on my 92 accord (with stock sway bar up front)
it works great.

much much better than stock ride... you really can feel the difference during hard cornering (mostly when u run on autocross)

hope it helps
oh yeah, the bar was 19mm from suspension techniques
u can also get one from Progress one, same thing...
just ignore the front sway bar (just use the stock one)

hope it helps

adding higher rate springs on the rear also helps alot for increasing your oversteer.
i got flat rate springs on all corner... very nice

[drift]

very simply...

one: add traction, get new tyres.

two: stiffen the rear with chassis bracing (strut tower bar) and anti-roll bar.

three: if two didnt do enough, loosen up the front with a smaller anti-roll bar or softer springs. also adjusting for a degree or two of negative camber up front will help your traction when rolling onto the tyres, providing more grip upfront, thus preventing understeer.

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally posted by drift
very simply...

one: add traction, get new tyres.

two: stiffen the rear with chassis bracing (strut tower bar) and anti-roll bar.

three: if two didnt do enough, loosen up the front with a smaller anti-roll bar or softer springs. also adjusting for a degree or two of negative camber up front will help your traction when rolling onto the tyres, providing more grip upfront, thus preventing understeer.

If my car isn't equipped stock, with any type of sway bar, to keep the understeer low, and the rear tight, should I just not even consider adding anything besides a front, top tower brace?

Also, the Si bar feels real nice, and right at home on my DX coupe. Body roll was quite a bit lessened after I put it on, and I can corner faster, without the car wanting to break loose. I dunno if I want to sacrifice the trunk space for a an upper rear bar, but with the rear sway, and lower tie, it feels quite nice.