XLR worth the $70,000 Price Tag?

[gonenuts15792]

Buick, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile DO NOT make the same cars. They may be built on the same frame but they are not the same cars. They are also not built in the same factories, and it doesn't matter if they are under the same company, each factory has its own quality control techniques. Thats why Cadillac and Buick have very few problems.

[gonenuts15792]

The facts don't lie. GM has many cars that are ranking third or better in dependibility ratings of each class of vehicles.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by gonenuts15792

Buick, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile DO NOT make the same cars. They may be built on the same frame but they are not the same cars. They are also not built in the same factories, and it doesn't matter if they are under the same company, each factory has its own quality control techniques. Thats why Cadillac and Buick have very few problems.

Yes they are, let's take a case study.

The Grand Prix- same car as the Impala, the Le Sabre and the Intrigue. They all use the same engines, same frame, same transmissions, they are built (hopefully) to the same standard. The only things that are different are

1. The badges.
2. The Interiors.
3. The Exterior styling.
4. The Grand Prix is a few millimeters shorter.

That's the reason Ford are turning over losses and GM have weakened. They offer nothing as an incentive to turn people away from Lexus' or Nissans or Toyota's or Honda's or BMW's, or even Dodge's/Chrysler's nothing.

Most of the cars made by GM and Ford these past few decades have been ugly front wheel drive boats that offer nothing in the dynamics department and are slower than cars from such brands as I mentioned in the last paragraph. The only thing that kept the American car industry going was the select few who said that they'd always buy American. While other buyers just went to the Japanese and German nameplates and they will continue to go to these brands, as they don't have dodgy pasts to apoligise for.

The Yanks have thier moments every now and then, the Corvette offers good value for money, Jeeps are up there with the best off-roaders on sale, the CTS is a competent car that recently had it's cry for better engines answered (too bad they didn't fix the atrocious styling) and Chrysler continue to put out good cars. But the Americans are still playing catch-up's and will continue to do so for at least 20 years before becoming profitable, by which point I predict Toyota will be the biggest manufacturer GM the number two, while Hyundai, Honda and the VAG will all be bigger than Ford.

[gonenuts15792]

Ok, nothing shows your damn bias towards European cars more than your last post. I'm though discussing this with you. You obviously have no life, and YOU are the one that is narrow minded, not me, I will at least look at European cars.

[Jimster]

I only mentioned European cars twice. I heaped BMW in with some Jap makers and said that the VAG will be bigger than Ford, which it will.

Nobody has made the Americans more insecure than the Japanese- the Europeans have offered superior cars at a premium for a long time now, the Japanese hit the Americans where it hurt and offered superior cars at the same prices.

I would look at an American car- as a matter of fact I used to have a Mustang ('68). I would certainly look at a Grand Cherokee, or a 300C, or a Neon SRT4, or a 2005+ Mustang Cobra, or a Durango, a Viper is a dream car for me, as is a Ram SRT-10 and Ford GT (as controversial as I find it), or the new Corvette and if Holden didn't exist then I'd consider a CTS-v a pretty decent car, but the rest of America's automotive product is mediocre, I'm afraid.

[TheScientist]

Originally Posted by HandofDoom

Come on,is a Maybach worth $350,000?You know what kind of a house you can get for that?

For that amount of money, where I live, that can't even get you an apartment or a townhouse. Yes, the Maybach is worth it's price tag, its almost 100% handbuilt. The wood trim selection alon takes 90 days to complete each inspection, to insure the quality and contrast so it looks even. Plus you get a handbuilt Mercedes V12, hand stitched leather etc. The price is for the parts, and for the labor of assembly.

Originally Posted by HandofDoom

Speed don't mean squat really.You can't really use a super cars speed anyway unless your willing to ship you car to Germany for a day just to test the speed.

Well, like you quoted before, it depends on what the person wants in a car. They may want speed to get past those Sunday drivers ya know.

Going to what Jimster is talking about, some companies do literally make teh same cars, because they are equipped with the same internal parts but with different badges, appearance, and luxury levels. Its all appeareance that changes. Like a Ford Taurus is a Mercury Sable. The Mercury is more luxurious. The Ford Crown Vic is the same as the Mercury Grand Marquis. The Crown and the Marquis are the same as Lincoln's Towncar, but Lincoln is more luxurious and has a different body style, but all the given cars use the same internal parts, which makes them to be the same cars. Some also badges defer stereotyping with cars. Someone may prefer the badge of a Chevy than a Pontiac, or a Mercury instead of a Ford.

Originally Posted by Jimster

Then there's the fact that few reliability issues these days are serious and things like cornering ability, braking, comfort, performance and engineering should determine how much better a car is, that's where the Americans have been left behind (Except for a few good engines giving decent straight line performance) and comfort.

Consumer Reports 2004 did say certain newer Euro cars were going down hill, because they were forgetting little things that help the car maintain a good life. I'm not really sure what specifically they were talking about, but I believe one of them was BMW's iDrive, since it premiered in teh 2002 E65 7-Series, there were still reports of bugs, by 2004, and it was claimed to still be difficult to control in the E66 5-Series and E65 6-series (may have the E numbers mixed). One other thing I think I heard was BMW's VANOS never took kindly to certain fuels, made by private companies, and still hasn't been fixed. Mercedes and their S-class just seem to be getting old, and out dated. Yet back here in America and even Japan, certain cars were starting to go uphill now. Cadillac I think is making great progress, and I've heard several friends of mine who drive Cadillac say it's "an American Mercedes." GMC has perfected a number of SUV and Truck options, and it growing to be one of the best SUV and Truck manufacturers. Japanese are also going uphill, with Infiniti, and Lexus, being named the most reliable cars in the world. Certain popular Euro cars that are known for their quality and reliability and performance and efficiency have been going down hill lately, but not drastically while Americans and Japanese are designing cars past Euro quality and luxury.

Originally Posted by Jimster

I would look at an American car- as a matter of fact I used to have a Mustang ('68). I would certainly look at a Grand Cherokee, or a 300C, or a Neon SRT4, or a 2005+ Mustang Cobra, or a Durango, a Viper is a dream car for me, as is a Ram SRT-10 and Ford GT (as controversial as I find it), or the new Corvette and if Holden didn't exist then I'd consider a CTS-v a pretty decent car, but the rest of America's automotive product is mediocre, I'm afraid.

I would agree, as I said, only certain Americans are going uphill while certain Euros are goin down hill. But with American autos, there are only certain makers that offer superior at premium price while the rest are mediocre. With Euro, majority of autos in Europe are beyond mediocre, and do offer superior at premium prices.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by TheScientist

For that amount of money, where I live, that can't even get you an apartment or a townhouse. Yes, the Maybach is worth it's price tag, its almost 100% handbuilt. The wood trim selection alon takes 90 days to complete each inspection, to insure the quality and contrast so it looks even. Plus you get a handbuilt Mercedes V12, hand stitched leather etc. The price is for the parts, and for the labor of assembly.



Well, like you quoted before, it depends on what the person wants in a car. They may want speed to get past those Sunday drivers ya know.

Going to what Jimster is talking about, some companies do literally make teh same cars, because they are equipped with the same internal parts but with different badges, appearance, and luxury levels. Its all appeareance that changes. Like a Ford Taurus is a Mercury Sable. The Mercury is more luxurious. The Ford Crown Vic is the same as the Mercury Grand Marquis. The Crown and the Marquis are the same as Lincoln's Towncar, but Lincoln is more luxurious and has a different body style, but all the given cars use the same internal parts, which makes them to be the same cars. Some also badges defer stereotyping with cars. Someone may prefer the badge of a Chevy than a Pontiac, or a Mercury instead of a Ford.



Consumer Reports 2004 did say certain newer Euro cars were going down hill, because they were forgetting little things that help the car maintain a good life. I'm not really sure what specifically they were talking about, but I believe one of them was BMW's iDrive, since it premiered in teh 2002 E65 7-Series, there were still reports of bugs, by 2004, and it was claimed to still be difficult to control in the E66 5-Series and E65 6-series (may have the E numbers mixed). One other thing I think I heard was BMW's VANOS never took kindly to certain fuels, made by private companies, and still hasn't been fixed. Mercedes and their S-class just seem to be getting old, and out dated. Yet back here in America and even Japan, certain cars were starting to go uphill now. Cadillac I think is making great progress, and I've heard several friends of mine who drive Cadillac say it's "an American Mercedes." GMC has perfected a number of SUV and Truck options, and it growing to be one of the best SUV and Truck manufacturers. Japanese are also going uphill, with Infiniti, and Lexus, being named the most reliable cars in the world. Certain popular Euro cars that are known for their quality and reliability and performance and efficiency have been going down hill lately, but not drastically while Americans and Japanese are designing cars past Euro quality and luxury.



I would agree, as I said, only certain Americans are going uphill while certain Euros are goin down hill. But with American autos, there are only certain makers that offer superior at premium price while the rest are mediocre. With Euro, majority of autos in Europe are beyond mediocre, and do offer superior at premium prices.

the iDrive in the 7 series is certainly a complicated piece of gadgetry, but they did over a million miles of testing when he 7 series was a prototype, so I'd say it'd be reliable, there have been a few bugs, but every known bug can be remedied by simply updating the iDrive software.

I think the E60 5 Series' iDrive is actually pretty easy to use, WAY more so than the 7 series. As for VANOS, I'm not sure of the issues surrounding it, but the engine should be given nothing lower than 95 RON, 98 RON if possible.

GMC I will never respect- they simply take Pickups, weld the deck's shut and add 8 more seats + a few luxury items, they usually embarass themselves off road. Jeep on the other hand, make proper offroaders, yet don't skimp on luxury or engineering.

The only maker on a downhill slide would be Mercedes. They once used to build cars to a standard, they now build them to a cost. However the Chairman (or maybe it was CEO? Can't remember) recently apoligised for the recent dip in quality and with a little hope, they'll be back on track this year. The W203 C Class was the main culprit for the dip, with Merc aiming to build 350,000 of them (Leaving the quality as "Rushjob")
The Porsche Cayenne has also been disappointing, though if I know Porsche, the issues will be sorted by next year.

[gonenuts15792]

If I remember right, I read an article in Motertrend awhille back that tested SUV off road handling and they said that the GMC and the Chevy full size SUVs handle very well off road. Bias showing through again.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by gonenuts15792

If I remember right, I read an article in Motertrend awhille back that tested SUV off road handling and they said that the GMC and the Chevy full size SUVs handle very well off road. Bias showing through again.

Ever tried taking a Tahoe on a DECENT offroad trail? I have, me and the lads took one on a hunting trip when I was living in New Zealand. Funny thing is that I have also taken a Cherokee, Isuzu Trooper, Pajero, Landcruiser, Ford Courier, Pathfinder and Discovery over it as well. All had absolutely no trouble in comparison to the Tahoe.

I've seen countless clips of H2's trying to take on trails and simply breaking things (The most famous being the one that snapped it's front axle). It's well known that the H2 can't handle any realistic off road conditions- so what does that leave for the other SUV's? Not a lot, since AM General are supposed to be GM's offroad division.

They should join the Ford Explorer in the "Yuppie Chicane" catagorey.

[gonenuts15792]

Well The Hummer and the Tahoe must be able to handle offroading because the U.S. army around here uses them offroad a lot. Jimster, with all do respect, just shut up, and you also might want to think about getting a life outside of this website.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by gonenuts15792

Well The Hummer and the Tahoe must be able to handle offroading because the U.S. army around here uses them offroad a lot. Jimster, with all do respect, just shut up, and you also might want to think about getting a life outside of this website.

I do have one, take a look at my profile, 7 posts a day amounts to about 1 hour a day (Reading included). I am married and have a proper job. Your judgements are about as ill-founded as your arguments and that's saying something.


The US Army use the H1 (One of the best offroading vehicles there is), the H2 is just an uglified Tahoe with over inflated tyres, you dolt and even then the "Humvee" is far different from a Civillian Hummer. The Tahoe's have no doubt also been extensively modified, the army does that to all thier vehicles, if not then they are only being used as staff cars, even a military Defender or Gelandewagen is far different from a civillian model and those cars are as about as focused as Off-roaders come.

[gonenuts15792]

whatever you say.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by gonenuts15792

whatever you say.

Good, so we're understood that you're stupid then? Excellent.


If you're going to spout off about GM's trucks/SUV's having offroad ability, then could you at least give me some convincing proof to make me think otherwise. If not, then don't bother replying, because if this conversation was vocal, all I'd be hearing is "yabber yabber yabber....."

[Ssom]

gonenuts- I'm sorry, but how the hell do you even manage to breathe?

This is my impression of you- "My car has 50 horsepower to the front wheels, my car handles like a Donkey on LSD and looks like a festering turd, but it's reliable and has "Insert crap that you don't need here"

I'd have driver enjoyment and pure fun over anything else any day. Peugeot have a disastrous reliability record, but fuck, they offer the mintest drive regardless of model and I'd have one over a Nissan, Honda or anything else, I cant say any American brands, because all we get over here are a few Chryslers, Jeeps, American Fords (Explorer and Mustang Cobra, F250 and F350) and a shitload of privately imported Chevy and Dodge SUV's and trucks.


You are giving dangerously inacurate information, imagine if someone read your crap and took thier Yukon to the Ruibcon trail and broke it? Sorry, but if you're going to post unfounded information, then go to supercars.net, thats where a disproportianate number of morons end up. It's well known that GM SUV's are good for nothing more than towing and carting people about, how many serious offroaders use them? ZILCH and don't give me this "THERE 2 EXPENSIVE 2 TAKE OFFROAD LOL crap" Because there are plenty of owners of brand new Land Rover Discoveries and Grand Cherokee's being used for off-road duties over here, as well as being used by members of off-roading clubs for the REAL tough stuff.

Get a grip.

[gonenuts15792]

I really don't give a shit what you think. My cars comfortable, reliable, handles well, and I love it. I don't give a shit how you view me.