The evo8 or ls1 firebird trans am??

[Jabberwocky]

You don't understand how close the two cars are in terms of handling abilitites. A fbody handles alot better than most people give credit for. A EVO does not handle as well as a people think. In terms of handling a Z06 or a miata for that matter would beat a EVO. The EVO's strong point is the 4 wheel drive which lets it come out of corners fast. A camaro, has the similar ability to blast out of corners with its massive torque if it is on race rubber. Stock camaros typically autocross only about half a second slower than an EVO. A road race course is fast, power becomes more of a factor because there will be places in which you can floor it for more than just a second or two. The camaro's power is likely to put it over the EVO.

[flylwsi]

i don't?
an evo doesn't have the handling that everyone thinks it does?
are you serious?
a miata would outhandle an evo?
do you have proof of these things?
seriously.

"if it is on race rubber"
doesn't sound like stock vs. stock does it?

stock camaros autocross about a 1/2 second slower than evos?

what kind of driver skills are we talking about?

we're not talking about camaros in this thread.
look at the title (not like it matters, it's the same car).

regardless.
you think an evo isn't a road course car?

you should look into handling tests that have been done by magazines (generally with professional drivers).
i've never seen a camaro handling in the same arena as an evo.

a zo6 or a miata? those are almost in the same range of cars and handling.

a zo6 can pull over 1 g on the skidpad, i'd hope it outhandles an evo.

don't try to compare an F body to a zo6 though. a stock c5 can outhandle an F body. easily.
and i'd put an evo (at least) on the same level as a c5, if not a bit higher.

[Jabberwocky]

Pff... you can believe what you want to believe. Quote your magazines and whatever. I don't care. I'm telling you what I see typically when I autocross. In my class, STU - a street tire class, I generally run about half a second slower than the two other EVOs running locally in my class. My car is very near stock although the rules allow me to do quite a bit to the car. The other camaro drivers on race rubber typically run about the same times as the EVOs and the STi, depending on who the driver is and how skilled they are. You won't believe me when I say this, but there is maybe only about less than 10 second during a full 60 second course in which I can have the gas pedal all the way down. On a fast road course, the time that a car can flat out accelerate is greater. Believe whatever the heck you want, I don't think i'm gonna argue something so stupid.

PS. If you ever go out onto a track with lame street tires designed for the rain. You are an idiot. You'll either go slowly around the track or really fast into a wall.

[flylwsi]

when YOU autocross.
exactly.
what's the skill level of the owners of the cars?

have you taken that into account, at all?

The other camaro drivers on race rubber typically run about the same times as the EVOs and the STi, depending on who the driver is and how skilled they are.

sounds like race rubber vs. stock tired evo/sti, huh?

if you ever go out onto a track with lame street tires?
really?
were you aware that the entire speed touring car series (until just this year) ran on street tires? toyo proxes t1-s tires?
they must be lame people, those professional race car drivers.

you're not gonna argue something so stupid?
what's so stupid here?
seriously.

have you ever been on a road course? ever?

let's think about how the audi rs6 (previously they were using s4's) in the speed GT series were constantly winning races with awd, less hp, and more weight than the rwd vettes, etc. that they were racing...

back to stock.

stock tires, stock EVERYTHING.

prove that two accomplished drivers in stock Fbody/evo aren't at the least even.

again, since you apparently have NEVER driven an awd car, let alone on a road course, you don't know.

sorry.

[Jabberwocky]

This is stupid, I'm ignoring you. It's obvious you've never even been to an autocross. Or else I wouldn't have to explain to you that even cars in stock class are allowed to use race rubber. The camaros on race rubber typically run even with the EVOs on race rubber. I run in street tire class to save money from having to buy tires all the time. Stock everything, the camaro is slower on a autoX course because it's wider and has to take a longer line, plus it can't use its power to the fullest. On an actualy race course like Buttonwillow (which I'll be at once in a blue moon), I still think a camaro is faster.

I am ignoring you from this point forward. I should just make it my policy to advoid people who put other ppl's cars in their signatures like it was their own. It's the first sign of lameness and ignorance.

PS. T1 are very differetn than stock all seasons

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by flylwsi

again, a thread about running 12's in an evo...
stock.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=70257

Well is sure is a thread about running 12's. I've read through the entire thing and even some of the other members there are quesitioning this guys legitamcy. He is claiming a 12.949 in the quarter, yet for over two weeks he hasn't posted any slips (and a video as he has also mentioned) as he said he would. Everybody is calling him out on this run, and he has yet to give proof on it. I will also stand skeptical of it until he can provide some slips or this video he claims to have. Their are some members even pulling the bs flag on him. So how can you be using that thread as an example of an Evo hitting 12s stock? I don't believe this guys run more than the next. Especially when he said he was running 12.9s all day. Weren't you at all skeptical about it? I could see Evo's hitting low 13s, but 12's? I can only understand why people here are also questioning that. The Evo is rated a bit over 270hp weighting 3260lbs or so. Thats like detuning a C5 Vette over 70hp that would normally run 13s flat and have it achieve the same results?? (with the exception of awd).

Well if the guy did it, then I'll give him plenty of props. Until then, I am going to have to pull the bs flag on him just as some other Evo members are also doing.

[flylwsi]

i realized (after posting it) that the thread that is posted was sketchy..

i've never been to an autocross?

you've totally missed the F'ing point.

race rubber is NOT STOCK, is it?

exactly.
so am i surprised that an F body on race rubber can hang with an evo/sti on stock tires? gee. why would that surprise me?

you're ignoring me?

go for it.

you just proved that your point doesn't make sense.

On an actualy race course like Buttonwillow (which I'll be at once in a blue moon), I still think a camaro is faster.

no proof, just what you think.

hmm...

people who put other people's cars in their sigs should be ignored?

you should start ignoring more than 1/2 the people on this site, including a good portion of the moderators.

what kind of picture i have in my sig has NOTHING TO DO WITH MY INTELLIGENCE, but if that helps you sleep, go for it.

do you have any times for a stock evo running against a stock F body (stock tires, on a road course)?

no.
anything else?

[Evo8MR]

www.bushurracing.com, www.worksrally.com -- Both of these are Evo tuners, both have cars with approx 10-15k invested running mid to low 11's on race gas.

5k invested into Stage 2 upgrades on street tires and 94 pump yields mid to low 12's in the quarter.

Skidpads are generally nearly 1g stock and greater with suspension upgrades, ie Tein coilovers, R compounds, etc.

Depending on the drivers, the Evo 8's down here in SCCA southwest run circles around the F bodies, but, they arn't in the same class so its irrelevant.

[Kurtdg19]

Lets take a look at the cars that are being compared. Ok on one hand their is an Evo8. AWD, sophisticated suspension, short wheelbase, pretty light for an AWD car. Then you have a T/A. RWD, WS6 suspension is a good setup for the car, lots of hp/torque, long wheelbase, wide, and a bit on the heavier side. First we pull the 1320s in and they seem to be fairly even (all about the driver). Now we roll to an autox, well which one has the better setup? As Jabberwocky pointed out, T/A's are wide and long, not the setup you want for this application. There is hardly anywhere to use its power advantage, so its seems pretty obvious what the most likely outcome will be. Now we go to a road coarse, much different than autox. Bigger track, actual straights, and a variation of all kinds of turns. There is no upper hand for either car on this coarse, you need a balance of power and handling to achieve the fastest times. Depending on the amount of straights and turns IMO will determine who will win. Their isn't much a T/A can do when it comes to going through the twists but try and at least say up with the Evo assuming their stock. But when the straight hits, the T/A is going to pull (almost like a cat/mouse game). I don't see how it could be clear to anyone as to which would actually win on a road coarse since nobody knows. Once again, its pretty much an even battle.

I have always known Ram Air LS1 T/A's to be low 13 second cars. Their ram air system is setup very well and helps to add on to the ET more than what the Camaro's setup is capable of. IMO, a LS1 RamAir T/A will consistently outrun a Evo in the quarter (maybe not every time, but I believe the average will be in the T/A's favor).

[youngvr4]

in the 1320 i belive 7 out of ten runs the trans am will win. as for handling, why are you guys even argueing the fact, every one who REALLY know about cars know the t/a cannot handle as well as the evo-8. i understand where the guy is coming from because the camaro and t/a are highly underestimated when comes to handling, there not bad, not as bad as most people make them seem just cause there background is known for the straights. but it can't run with and evo-8 or an sti, there pure bred rally cars. thats what they are, rally cars on the street. and the skidpad doesnt have everything to do with the handling, just as hp doesn't have everything to do with speed. but if you drove both cars on a track on some twisties you would then know why we say the t/a is not in competition. this is my 2 cents. or three, hell lets just make it a cool nickel

[flylwsi]

i understand your points, kurt...
but if the evo is just as even in the 1/4, why would it not keep up out of a corner with the f body?
it's not like it's killing it by 1/2 a second in the 1/4...

if they're even, they'll both jump out of the corner just as hard, if not harder in the evo, as you can really keep it boiling in a corner with awd, versus trying to keep your rwd tail in check.

if the evo is a better handler, and 1/4 times are close, i'm not sure where the f body is going to just walk away from the evo on the straights... especially since you can get into the gas harder in an evo, which has shorter gearing than the f body (evo's have a gear limited top speed of 156 or so, and i don't think you're going to hit that in a stock f body/evo on most road courses in the states, or anywhere, really)...

so where's the competition on a road course?

[Jabberwocky]

They are not pure bred rally cars, the rally car is different from what they sell. It's a myth that is perpertuated by the makers to sell more cars. And until they start selling the Japanese version. The US EVO8 is still lacking the active center differential, a 6 close ratio six speed, and active yaw control. It's a great car, but the Japanese one is better.

A fbody is harder to drive fast. Most people don't really realize this. Mistakes are punished more so because the suspension doesn't recover like an IRS would. Plus the feedback isn't that great either.

Lets not forget the LT4 camaro, 330 hp and 335 lb/ft of torque

Track results between the two cars will be grip dependant. If it rains, evo gets the upper hand. If it's dry and both cars are not on all super cheap all seasons, I vote for the camaro. Go one step up to race rubber, and put both on Victoracers or Hoosiers on both cars and I'd bet money on the camaro. There is just more room to use the power advatage in race course. A 60 hp advantage and more torque is significant. And even though the lancer is 200 pound lighter, the faster you go, the more drag becomes a factor as oppose to just weight.

[flylwsi]

put them on stock tires.
end of story.
the tires they came off the assembly line with.

the evo runs advans (yoko) designed for grip vs. all weather.
the same can be said for the F body, which doesn't come with crappy tires stock.

put both cars on hoosiers and you'd pick the f body (you keep saying camaro, i'd suggest noting that the thread is about a firebird, which is irrelevant, b/c they're the same car, but... )

the evo's got sick grip already.
put grippIER tires on it, and you don't think it'd get even sicker?
stock suspension, you can corner for corner still outhandle an f body with equal tires.

[flylwsi]

one more thing...
you noted drag as an issue in high speed situations.
on a racetrack, where your gearing is really what gets you up to those speeds, the evo is with the advantage, b/c of its shorter gears, which will make up for the drag issues (what's the Cd for both cars, i bet the evo's isn't as bad as you think it is)...

keep this in mind:
the boxy mk3 jetta (in the speed touring car series) had the highest speed down the fastest straight in the entire series, and this is a single car team jetta, that looks like a box, reaching higher speeds than bmw's and integras (you know, the cars that dominate the series...)
so you should consider the Cd of each car before assuming the evo has more of a drag issue

the same is true in the NHRA
some of the older, boxier car bodies were found to be more aerodynamic than some of the newer cars...
i remember the F body being one of those examples, actually...

[Kurtdg19]

Originally Posted by flylwsi

i understand your points, kurt...
but if the evo is just as even in the 1/4, why would it not keep up out of a corner with the f body?
it's not like it's killing it by 1/2 a second in the 1/4...

if they're even, they'll both jump out of the corner just as hard, if not harder in the evo, as you can really keep it boiling in a corner with awd, versus trying to keep your rwd tail in check.

if the evo is a better handler, and 1/4 times are close, i'm not sure where the f body is going to just walk away from the evo on the straights... especially since you can get into the gas harder in an evo, which has shorter gearing than the f body (evo's have a gear limited top speed of 156 or so, and i don't think you're going to hit that in a stock f body/evo on most road courses in the states, or anywhere, really)...

so where's the competition on a road course?

The ET times in the quarter determine how fast a car is going at the end of the average of the last 66' if I remember correctly. An Evo typically (from times and slips i've seen) ET in the low 100s (102-104s in that range). The T/A's will typically have a trap speed in the high 100s (107-109s). In most cases this represents that the car with the higher trap is already pulling on the car with a lower trap. When you bring this into a road coarse, lauches don't matter. The T/A will be pulling at speed vs the Evo. Out of a corner the Evo in most cases will have the faster exiting speed. If there is a straight following, that is an oppurtunity for the TA to catch up. Like I said before, a cat/mouse game. Now if you wanted to switch you tires (which IMO should be done so you don't ruin your daily driving tires), you could do so and notice a good difference in times for both cars. If you can't however, then just expect to be buying tires at a more frequent pace than what normal daily usage would permit.

BTW Jabber, if you ever bring your car to ButtonWillow, I'm interesting in seeing how well you fared on it. Plz, post some results in the future if you ever do it.