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Old 05-02-2008, 08:07 PM   #16
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Unburnt HCs are not a function of how slowly the HC molecule burns, it has to do with in complete evaporation of fuel and the fact that most OEMs tune things rich. Almost all of the combustion event is done by 30* ATDC. The job of the cat is not to burn extra HC, that's the job of the air pump in the manifold. When HCs reach the cat they may still be burning, but it is NOT the job of the cat to burn HCs. Its very bad for cats to burn HC since it clogs them.

The outlet of the CAT is hotter because of catalysis of the gasses, not because of burning HC. If you have excess heat from burning HC in the cat, chances are its not long for this world.

Quote:
This isn't true. Gasoline and diesel droplet vapour is not gas.
regardless, liquid won't burn. It cannot burn unless its incindiary like some alcohols. If liquid fuel burned, carbs wouldn't need chokes and EFI wouldn't have to richen the fuel mix when its cold. When EFI nozzles squirt fuel on the hot intake valve, it evaporates quickly. What doesn't evaporate gets sucked in as a droplet and the 1800 degree heat of combustion certainly makes quick work of it.

Liquid fuel won't burn.
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:11 PM   #17
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
regardless, liquid won't burn. It cannot burn unless its incindiary like some alcohols. If liquid fuel burned, carbs wouldn't need chokes and EFI wouldn't have to richen the fuel mix when its cold. When EFI nozzles squirt fuel on the hot intake valve, it evaporates quickly. What doesn't evaporate gets sucked in as a droplet and the 1800 degree heat of combustion certainly makes quick work of it.

Liquid fuel won't burn.
It's certainly true that carburettors and upstream fuel injection use evaporation to get a good mix. But the proliferation of direct injection petrol engines shows that a misted liquid spray does indeed burn.

Ever made a flamethrower at home?
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Old 05-03-2008, 08:08 PM   #18
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiBacon
It's certainly true that carburettors and upstream fuel injection use evaporation to get a good mix. But the proliferation of direct injection petrol engines shows that a misted liquid spray does indeed burn.

Ever made a flamethrower at home?

Liquid fuel does not burn, it is the first thing you get taught at a fire fighting course.

What does burn is a thin layer of vapor on the surface of the liquid.
In your flamethrower example the liquid is being turned to vapor at the flame front, and that is what is burning.
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Old 05-04-2008, 05:24 AM   #19
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moppie
Liquid fuel does not burn, it is the first thing you get taught at a fire fighting course.

What does burn is a thin layer of vapor on the surface of the liquid.
In your flamethrower example the liquid is being turned to vapor at the flame front, and that is what is burning.
Exactly. That is why you can use a 12v fuel gauge sender with a resistor INSIDE a fuel tank. If its submerged it will never ignite. It can't. Its also the same reason why you can use a 12v fuel pump submerged in a fuel tank and it won't ignite. For that matter you could put a spark plug in the tank and it won't ignite.

And the direct injection debate doesn't hold water. You're injecting fuel into a compressed-air oven. If you're squirting super-fine droplets of gasoline into a potentially 600 degree environment, it will almost instantly evaporate.

I don't know how many times we can say this... LIQUID FUEL DOES NOT BURN. Any fuel requires oxygen to burn. Gasoline is a Hydrocarbon, meaning it is composed of Hydrogen and Carbon. Submersed in the liquid fuel there is NO oxygen, so it can't burn. The surface of the liquid can burn because of the oxygen present, and as the surface burns it will make way for other molecules to evaporate and combine with oxygen. If you light a bucket of gasoline it will burn very violently; almost explosively, but that is due to the volatility of it, not because liquid fuel can burn.

The only reason why we use high pressure injection or carburetion to introduce fuel is to increase the liquid's surface area to the point where its volatile enough to burn with enough completion to satisfy the parameters of the engine's operation.

Another thing for you to think about since you brought up the flamethrower analogy... One of my tricks as a bartender is spitting fire. I put a shot of 151 or grain alcohol in my mouth, light a match (or my finger dipped in alcohol) and spit the fuel on the flame. The point is to carburate the fuel as much as possible, like a comic spit-take in a movie. You begin by blowing upwards with just air, then tilting your head down to introduce the alcohol to the air stream. If you simply poured alcohol on your flame, it would go out.
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Old 05-04-2008, 05:52 AM   #20
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

This is also why a flooded engine won't start, as the spark plugs are coated with liquid fuel.

Dry them off, and it starts working again.



I don't know about a barney flame thrower through..........
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Old 05-04-2008, 04:03 PM   #21
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
Exactly. That is why you can use a 12v fuel gauge sender with a resistor INSIDE a fuel tank. If its submerged it will never ignite. It can't. Its also the same reason why you can use a 12v fuel pump submerged in a fuel tank and it won't ignite. For that matter you could put a spark plug in the tank and it won't ignite.

And the direct injection debate doesn't hold water. You're injecting fuel into a compressed-air oven. If you're squirting super-fine droplets of gasoline into a potentially 600 degree environment, it will almost instantly evaporate.

I don't know how many times we can say this... LIQUID FUEL DOES NOT BURN. Any fuel requires oxygen to burn. Gasoline is a Hydrocarbon, meaning it is composed of Hydrogen and Carbon. Submersed in the liquid fuel there is NO oxygen, so it can't burn. The surface of the liquid can burn because of the oxygen present, and as the surface burns it will make way for other molecules to evaporate and combine with oxygen. If you light a bucket of gasoline it will burn very violently; almost explosively, but that is due to the volatility of it, not because liquid fuel can burn.

The only reason why we use high pressure injection or carburetion to introduce fuel is to increase the liquid's surface area to the point where its volatile enough to burn with enough completion to satisfy the parameters of the engine's operation.

Another thing for you to think about since you brought up the flamethrower analogy... One of my tricks as a bartender is spitting fire. I put a shot of 151 or grain alcohol in my mouth, light a match (or my finger dipped in alcohol) and spit the fuel on the flame. The point is to carburate the fuel as much as possible, like a comic spit-take in a movie. You begin by blowing upwards with just air, then tilting your head down to introduce the alcohol to the air stream. If you simply poured alcohol on your flame, it would go out.
You're comparing burning to the controlled explosion event of combustion. They are quite different and it's well known that liquid and gaseous fuels have a very limited set of conditions leading to flash point.

But there's no question that liquid fuels burn. If you want to light a puddle of fuel, you can.
Yes it's true that what actually burns is the fine layer of vapour on the surface, that is also true of wood burning. But I'm yet to find someone who tells me that solid wood doesn't burn.
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Old 05-05-2008, 12:06 AM   #22
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moppie
I don't know about a barney flame thrower through..........
It all happened after a kids didn't sing the "I love you, you love me" song back to him. He went crazy! Its on You Tube.....true story.


Well, I don't mean to hi-jack the thread or anything... ...but, I think you kids are arguing a different approach to the same story and don't know it...
There are 3 things needed to make a fire.
1) Fuel - The burnable kind, be it gasoline, wood or wood vapour..
2) Ignition - The heat kind, or sparks depending on the fuel..
3) AIR - The oxygen kind...having anything soaked, submerged or any other way oxygen can't get the other two you have no fire....

Firefighters now can use a foam for putting out fires. They train to walk and carry the hose a special way so they don't disturb the foam as much when putting out fires. That way they won't allow oxygen back to the fuel source, and cause a flare up. (learned that from a fire crew that had to put out a dumpster fire that had a layer of oil and tranny fluid on the bottom, had they used just water they would never get it put out....(oil on top of water)

....but then again I could have glanced over all the posts wrong...
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:58 AM   #23
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiBacon
You're comparing burning to the controlled explosion event of combustion. They are quite different and it's well known that liquid and gaseous fuels have a very limited set of conditions leading to flash point.

But there's no question that liquid fuels burn. If you want to light a puddle of fuel, you can.
Yes it's true that what actually burns is the fine layer of vapour on the surface, that is also true of wood burning. But I'm yet to find someone who tells me that solid wood doesn't burn.
You contradict yourself. Liquid doesn't burn, the evaporated gaseous form of it burns on the surface. Its evaporated... as in its in a gaseous state.

The liquid WILL NOT BURN. Its evaporated surface will because it is exposed to oxygen. You could submerge a spark plug in a bucket of gasoline and it won't ignite the fuel. Hold it just above the fuel and it will ignite the VAPORS. The evaporated fuel burns, NOT the liquid.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:47 PM   #24
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
You contradict yourself. Liquid doesn't burn, the evaporated gaseous form of it burns on the surface. Its evaporated... as in its in a gaseous state.

The liquid WILL NOT BURN. Its evaporated surface will because it is exposed to oxygen. You could submerge a spark plug in a bucket of gasoline and it won't ignite the fuel. Hold it just above the fuel and it will ignite the VAPORS. The evaporated fuel burns, NOT the liquid.
Pick a slightly heavier liquid without the layer of vapour, like diesel or oil.
These can be lit in liquid form without wondering if it's the liquid or the vapour which ignites.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:39 PM   #25
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Again, sorry to be such a jerk, but you are just wrong. Diesel fuel doesn't evaporate as quickly as gasoline, but it does evaporate. If it didn't, it wouldn't have an odor.

If oil burned in liquid form, we wouldn't need wicks in oil lamps. If diesel burned in liquid form we wouldn't need 25,000 psi injector pumps.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:51 PM   #26
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
Again, sorry to be such a jerk, but you are just wrong. Diesel fuel doesn't evaporate as quickly as gasoline, but it does evaporate. If it didn't, it wouldn't have an odor.

If oil burned in liquid form, we wouldn't need wicks in oil lamps. If diesel burned in liquid form we wouldn't need 25,000 psi injector pumps.
I am not claiming that diesel an oil don't evaporate. I am not disputing that the vapours burn (I mentioned above, wood burns in exactly the same way), I am saying it is very easy to ignite liquid fuel at normal temperatures.

You don't need a wick to burn an oil lamp, but you need a wick to control the burning of that lamp.
Setting fire to diesel and oil isn't difficult (again using these for examples due to the low volatility at room temp).
The old method of frost control in horticulture were things called frost pots. Literally steel buckets filled with diesel, kerosene or other light oil. They were lit directly from a hand held pot similar to a watering can. No wick involved and damn were they smokey.
I have done it, I suggest you try it before telling me it can't be done.

Diesel injection pumps are such high pressure because they need to burn that shot of fuel cleanly in a few milliseconds. To burn the same volume of fuel in a puddle takes longer and results in the uncontrolled emissions I mentioned earlier.
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:26 AM   #27
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

You are confusing the fact that you can ignite a bucket of liquid fuel with actually burning liquid. The LIQUID isn't burning, the vapor ON the liquid is burning. The vapor burns, the liquid doesn't.

You can argue all you want, but IT IS NOT LIQUID THAT IS BURNING, it is the vapor near the liquid that burns. I have two degrees in chemistry and biochemistry so you can't convince me that liquid burns because it doesn't.
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:30 AM   #28
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiBacon
I am not claiming that diesel an oil don't evaporate. I am not disputing that the vapours burn (I mentioned above, wood burns in exactly the same way), I am saying it is very easy to ignite liquid fuel at normal temperatures.

Diesel injection pumps are such high pressure because they need to burn that shot of fuel cleanly in a few milliseconds. To burn the same volume of fuel in a puddle takes longer and results in the uncontrolled emissions I mentioned earlier.

You are still wrong.

It takes longer for a puddle to burn because it has a smaller surface area than fuel sprayed in a mist.
The smaller surface area means less evaporated fuel, and so a slower burn.

Go and ask your local fire brigade about burning fuel, if you are lucky they might even give you a demonstration.
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Old 05-08-2008, 03:55 PM   #29
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiBacon
I am saying it is very easy to ignite liquid fuel at normal temperatures.
Ok... I'm not going to answer any more of your questions. If these two can't convince you liquid doesn't burn, I'm sure I can't convince you of anything.

But, I got the HAFC installed in my car and on the first run got 37 MPG. That is compared to 29 before (same EXACT route, 95% highway with very light winds). For those of you that are good at math, that is not a 50% increase, but I'm sure I can get it better. Being my first install, I have some learning to do still. I'll adjust it over the weekend, and hopefully get it much higher by Monday. If anyone has a serious interest in buying one, I'll consider giving demonstrations before you do (depending on the distance to where you are). If anyone is interested, PM me and I'll give you contact info.
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Old 05-08-2008, 04:06 PM   #30
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Re: PICC and hydro assist fuel cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Ri
Ok... I'm not going to answer any more of your questions. If these two can't convince you liquid doesn't burn, I'm sure I can't convince you of anything.

But, I got the HAFC installed in my car and on the first run got 37 MPG. That is compared to 29 before (same EXACT route, 95% highway with very light winds). For those of you that are good at math, that is not a 50% increase, but I'm sure I can get it better. Being my first install, I have some learning to do still. I'll adjust it over the weekend, and hopefully get it much higher by Monday. If anyone has a serious interest in buying one, I'll consider giving demonstrations before you do (depending on the distance to where you are). If anyone is interested, PM me and I'll give you contact info.
So you've done one run of how far to benchmark your fuel savings?
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