369 Holiday Project

[NewToPanozGTS]

Thanks for your response Kel.
Regrettably with my skill sets, to attempt such a project would be foolhardy. I recently trashed my 351 and have decided to go the opposite route from most contributors to this thread -- i.e. less displacement, not more! I'm putting the finishing touches on a high quality 302 cid motor now. I raced vintage cars (Trans Am 5 liter limit) for many years and that quick revving 302 really earned a place in my heart. My GTS is only slightly heavier than my vintage Falcon -- and I'm working on that!

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by NewToPanozGTS

Thanks for your response Kel.
Regrettably with my skill sets, to attempt such a project would be foolhardy. I recently trashed my 351 and have decided to go the opposite route from most contributors to this thread -- i.e. less displacement, not more! I'm putting the finishing touches on a high quality 302 cid motor now. I raced vintage cars (Trans Am 5 liter limit) for many years and that quick revving 302 really earned a place in my heart. My GTS is only slightly heavier than my vintage Falcon -- and I'm working on that!

I am a big fan of 5 liter engines as well. My last race car was a classic 1976 Holden Torana SS hatchback (Aussie GM) powered by a 5 liter engine. Weighed around 2800lbs and we had that running at 465rwhp at 7200rpm. They are just awesome to drive in the 5500 - 7500rpm range.

I would be interested to hear about the spec of the engine you are building. Have tried quite a few different bits and combos on the route to getting to the current 515rwhp with the 369 cube combo so always good to learn more.

Kel.

[NewToPanozGTS]

Hi Kel,

I'm familiar with the Holden, and the Holden vs. Falcon wars that continue to this day. I rarely miss an Australian V8 Supercar race on TV and plan to be in Austin TX this May when they come to the US for the first time. The DTM and V8 Supercar drivers are the best in the world! My GTS will soon have a down-under connection as the 302 intake is a Parker Funnelweb and the Ford Motorsport harmonic balancer was made in Australia!

My '64 Falcon Sprint is a true survivor that was first road raced in 1966. It's set to '65 FIA specs. with fiberglass hood, fenders, doors, deck lid and bumpers. Throw in some lexan and a million little things and it hits the scales at 2,680 pounds wet, sans driver. That 302 (with the required iron heads & flat tappet cam) put out 477 hp at the crank at 7200 rpm and it as good to 7500 rpm. I adjusted the valves every race weekend, replaced the valve springs at 20-25 hours and freshened the motor at 40-45 hours. Never a mechanical DNF.

There is no magic to my engines beyond quality parts and machine work, meticulous assembly, big compression, a custom flat tappet cam and heads matched to the cam. That said, I'll happily share anything I have -- I'll just have to find it. However, my guess is (based on the level of preparation of your car) that you're not going to learn much from me.

The 302 for the GTS nearing completion and I expect only slightly higher HP and a little more torque mostly from it's aluminum heads and Parker manifold. I'm sticking with a flat tappet cam of similar design to the Falcon. I'm also ditching the -10 oil lines for -12 and will likely change the radiator / oil cooler arrangement as well. Hope to track test late next month.

Bill F.
GTS #35.
Tallahassee FL.

[Panoz60]

Originally Posted by NewToPanozGTS

Thanks for your response Kel.
Regrettably with my skill sets, to attempt such a project would be foolhardy. I recently trashed my 351 and have decided to go the opposite route from most contributors to this thread -- i.e. less displacement, not more! I'm putting the finishing touches on a high quality 302 cid motor now. I raced vintage cars (Trans Am 5 liter limit) for many years and that quick revving 302 really earned a place in my heart. My GTS is only slightly heavier than my vintage Falcon -- and I'm working on that!

FYI- I am planning on crossing over my headers as well (with the bigger motor), but I am going to cheat. I plan on using these: http://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/fordcrossover1.htm I am going to cut the header that "crosses over" right through the final bend before the collector, and then weld in the proper radius/bends to move the collector where I need it. I've done more complicated header mods. This shouldn't be too difficult.

Tallahassee? Cool, now I know of (at least) three of us racing in Florida. Hope to meet up with ya at the track one day. I hope Brian G doesn't show up with the yellow bullet. It would be humiliating to get spanked my first time out.

[panozracing]

The car has moved to Maine. Currently buried under snow. It wont show up in Florida except the occasional Winterfest or something similar. You will be fine. Thanks!!!!

:-)

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by NewToPanozGTS

Hi Kel,

I'm familiar with the Holden, and the Holden vs. Falcon wars that continue to this day. I rarely miss an Australian V8 Supercar race on TV and plan to be in Austin TX this May when they come to the US for the first time. The DTM and V8 Supercar drivers are the best in the world! My GTS will soon have a down-under connection as the 302 intake is a Parker Funnelweb and the Ford Motorsport harmonic balancer was made in Australia!

My '64 Falcon Sprint is a true survivor that was first road raced in 1966. It's set to '65 FIA specs. with fiberglass hood, fenders, doors, deck lid and bumpers. Throw in some lexan and a million little things and it hits the scales at 2,680 pounds wet, sans driver. That 302 (with the required iron heads & flat tappet cam) put out 477 hp at the crank at 7200 rpm and it as good to 7500 rpm. I adjusted the valves every race weekend, replaced the valve springs at 20-25 hours and freshened the motor at 40-45 hours. Never a mechanical DNF.

There is no magic to my engines beyond quality parts and machine work, meticulous assembly, big compression, a custom flat tappet cam and heads matched to the cam. That said, I'll happily share anything I have -- I'll just have to find it. However, my guess is (based on the level of preparation of your car) that you're not going to learn much from me.

The 302 for the GTS nearing completion and I expect only slightly higher HP and a little more torque mostly from it's aluminum heads and Parker manifold. I'm sticking with a flat tappet cam of similar design to the Falcon. I'm also ditching the -10 oil lines for -12 and will likely change the radiator / oil cooler arrangement as well. Hope to track test late next month.

Bill F.
GTS #35.
Tallahassee FL.

Yes the Ford Holden thing is still very strong. Not sure if you are aware that Supercars have Mercedes and Nissan joining the fray for the coming season Bill. I am really looking forward to seeing how the cammer V8's go against the now well developed pushrods. The Mercedes team is based around Stone Brother Racing who are owned by 2 Kiwi brothers. They have been very sucessful so I expect Mercedes to do well.

Your Falcon sounds like a very cool car with a great pedigree. There are a couple of race classes over here that you would really enjoy that the Falcon would fit right in with. Muscle car racing is very strong over here these days although the cars are getting crazily fast and not so "period". Lots of NASCAR engines being fitted to early Mustangs, HQ Holdens and Camaros. Hence speeds up to 300kph.........

I looked at a Parker Funnel web for my 369, I think the design is very very good. Only reason I did not go down that path was need to import one and the additional height which would have made fitting the cold air system an issue. Quality of the knock offs is also a potential issue from what I have read although I am sure good prep can sort this.

I opted for a Super Victor instead but this has worked out well due my extra cubes. Hard to believe but with the Super Victor we picked up substantial torque at 2500 - 4500rpm and 5000 - 6500rpm. Biggest gains down low and up top and tapered off through 4500. I put the low end down to additional compression and better carb signal/atomisation.

What heads are you going to run on the 302 Bill? What sort of compression?

Kel.

PS - Totally agree with your approach to engine building Bill.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Panoz60

FYI- I am planning on crossing over my headers as well (with the bigger motor), but I am going to cheat. I plan on using these: http://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/fordcrossover1.htm I am going to cut the header that "crosses over" right through the final bend before the collector, and then weld in the proper radius/bends to move the collector where I need it. I've done more complicated header mods. This shouldn't be too difficult.

Tallahassee? Cool, now I know of (at least) three of us racing in Florida. Hope to meet up with ya at the track one day. I hope Brian G doesn't show up with the yellow bullet. It would be humiliating to get spanked my first time out.

The Schoey headers look very nice. I am a fan of properly designed Tri Y headers as I have had success with these before. The headers appear as though they will need a bit of work to fit into the Panoz frame though as bringing the headers together in a place where you can join and route them is the challenge. Will be interested to follow your design, progress and results.

I have been happy with the outcomes we have achieved as the crossover header has now worked very efficiently from 5.0 up to 6.0 displacement and 330 - 515rwhp. I did deliberately go long on the primaries though to assist midrange toque for endurance racing so this has helped the headers suit the variety of combos we have tried.

Have you settled on mufflers that you will use? I got some custom made in stainless due to our noise regs. If I was doing it again I would use Spintechs. Efficient, robust, great noise control, awesome note, compact and I have seen them (basic models/sizes) tame 800hp NASCAR engines here and and get to 95db with minor downturns on the exhaust tip.

Kel.

[NewToPanozGTS]

Originally Posted by NZGTRA17

Yes the Ford Holden thing is still very strong. Not sure if you are aware that Supercars have Mercedes and Nissan joining the fray for the coming season Bill. I am really looking forward to seeing how the cammer V8's go against the now well developed pushrods. The Mercedes team is based around Stone Brother Racing who are owned by 2 Kiwi brothers. They have been very sucessful so I expect Mercedes to do well.

Your Falcon sounds like a very cool car with a great pedigree. There are a couple of race classes over here that you would really enjoy that the Falcon would fit right in with. Muscle car racing is very strong over here these days although the cars are getting crazily fast and not so "period". Lots of NASCAR engines being fitted to early Mustangs, HQ Holdens and Camaros. Hence speeds up to 300kph.........

I looked at a Parker Funnel web for my 369, I think the design is very very good. Only reason I did not go down that path was need to import one and the additional height which would have made fitting the cold air system an issue. Quality of the knock offs is also a potential issue from what I have read although I am sure good prep can sort this.

I opted for a Super Victor instead but this has worked out well due my extra cubes. Hard to believe but with the Super Victor we picked up substantial torque at 2500 - 4500rpm and 5000 - 6500rpm. Biggest gains down low and up top and tapered off through 4500. I put the low end down to additional compression and better carb signal/atomisation.

What heads are you going to run on the 302 Bill? What sort of compression?

Kel.

PS - Totally agree with your approach to engine building Bill.

Kel,

I was unaware of the addition of the cammer's to the V-8 Supercar series. Guess I'll still pull for the Falcons.

Vintage racing here in the states has migrated towards non historic cars and non period correct reproductions but there are still some sanctioning bodies that "get it". I think as the economy improves the entry specifications will tighten up again. I was approached by an Australian at the Mid-Ohio track back in the late 1990's who made me promise (over a few Fosters) that I would advertise my Falcon in Australia ("... where it would be f_____g appreciated ...") if I ever decided to part company with it. My main lesson from that chance meeting was -- Don't drink with an Australian the night before a race. Great guy, but he did "talk funny."

If I measured correctly the taller Parker manifold will just bridge the gap between the tall-deck 351 and the short-deck 302 -- so my cowl induction should line up just fine. Key words here: "If I measured correctly." The quality of the Parker's casting left a lot to be desired and added about an hour's shop tome to the port matching job.

If I remember correctly the Falcon motor came in at right around 13 to 1 compression. I'm shooting for around 12 to 1 on the Panoz. Falcon heads are World Products with serious porting, Panoz are out of the box CNC'd Ford Motorsport. I can give you the part # if you like. They look very nice.

Management (my wife) is calling me to dinner. I'm gone.

Bill F.
GTS #35
Tallahassee FL.

[NewToPanozGTS]

Originally Posted by Panoz60

FYI- I am planning on crossing over my headers as well (with the bigger motor), but I am going to cheat. I plan on using these: http://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/fordcrossover1.htm I am going to cut the header that "crosses over" right through the final bend before the collector, and then weld in the proper radius/bends to move the collector where I need it. I've done more complicated header mods. This shouldn't be too difficult.

Tallahassee? Cool, now I know of (at least) three of us racing in Florida. Hope to meet up with ya at the track one day. I hope Brian G doesn't show up with the yellow bullet. It would be humiliating to get spanked my first time out.

Thanks for the info on crossovers and it looks like starting with the Schoenfields should shorten the project -- anything is better than a blank sheet of paper. That said, it's still a major project and kudos to you for taking it on. I'll be very interested in the outcome. Possibly you could post pix of your progress so the rest of us can be envious. For now I'll learn to love my Headman's.

Regarding track time I plan to test at Roebling Road at the end of February and again in March. After that we should be race ready and I'll find something in the SE that looks interesting. When will your car be ready? Possibly we can stay in touch off line.

[Panoz60]

Originally Posted by NewToPanozGTS

That said, it's still a major project and kudos to you for taking it on. I'll be very interested in the outcome. Possibly you could post pix of your progress so the rest of us can be envious.

Thanks for the kudos. But- I personally think it's not that big of a deal. I plan on cutting through the last bend (as stated) then mounting the header itself. Afterwards, I'll hold the collector in the position i want it (probably below the upper frame rails, over the bell housing) with clamps and/or steel rods that I'll tack in place temporarily. There will be a gap where I cut it, so I will take J-bends (also available through Schoenfeld) and take "pie" sections out and fit them in the gaps. Then tack them in place, remove the assembly, and have a buddy of mine TIG them. I could MIG them, but it's uglier. I will post pics. First I have to light a fire under my engine builders butt. I am replacing the stock 302 with a 351. It's the off-season for the roundy-round guys down here, and he is busier than a skeeter in a nudist colony.

Debut date for the car will be this spring with the 302. My license has expired from my lay-off, but I should get a pass based on my previous activity/experience. Probably at the Sebring short course. IDK, but soon.

[PanozDuke]

Cobrafang (Tom Duke) had a set made for his 347 powered GTRA and a subsequent set was made for Tom O'Callaghan for his 347 car. Gary Jones (Gary Jones Motorsport, Augusta area) had a fabricator make them each as one off's using the actual cars and Kel's dimensions and photos as the basis. They were pricey and then some built this way. Tried to get them to make fixtures and run a group of five sets to sell to other interested folks (like me), but it didn't pan out. Gary Jones could probably provide you info on what these cost, but as I recall it was way on the wrong side of $2K. They perform absolutely fantastically. Tom Duke is planning on running his car this year at Road America and Circuit of the Americas in SVRA events. Not sure about Tom O. Gary will be supporting Tom D. if you want to get a close look. Both his and Tom O's cars are maintained by Gary.

Mike

[NewToPanozGTS]

Originally Posted by PanozDuke

Cobrafang (Tom Duke) had a set made for his 347 powered GTRA and a subsequent set was made for Tom O'Callaghan for his 347 car. Gary Jones (Gary Jones Motorsport, Augusta area) had a fabricator make them each as one off's using the actual cars and Kel's dimensions and photos as the basis. They were pricey and then some built this way. Tried to get them to make fixtures and run a group of five sets to sell to other interested folks (like me), but it didn't pan out. Gary Jones could probably provide you info on what these cost, but as I recall it was way on the wrong side of $2K. They perform absolutely fantastically. Tom Duke is planning on running his car this year at Road America and Circuit of the Americas in SVRA events. Not sure about Tom O. Gary will be supporting Tom D. if you want to get a close look. Both his and Tom O's cars are maintained by Gary.

Mike

Wow, thanks Mike for the information. Looks like there's a trip to Augusta in my future. I have an SVRA license but didn't check out their "West" schedule -- what a hoot it would be to drive the COTA! Hopefully I can work that into my schedule. Thanks again.

[NewToPanozGTS]

What heads are you going to run on the 302 Bill? What sort of compression?

Kel.


Kel,
I went to my records and checked. The Falcon 302 came in at 12.8 to 1. Meanwhile (and I'll likely regret it) I've decided to hold the Panoz at 11.8 to 1 for now -- I just couldn't bring myself to shave those beautiful CNC'd aluminum heads.
Bill.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by NewToPanozGTS

What heads are you going to run on the 302 Bill? What sort of compression?

Kel.


Kel,
I went to my records and checked. The Falcon 302 came in at 12.8 to 1. Meanwhile (and I'll likely regret it) I've decided to hold the Panoz at 11.8 to 1 for now -- I just couldn't bring myself to shave those beautiful CNC'd aluminum heads.
Bill.

Bill, I was in the same boat regards compression with the 369. Due to using 2.08 inlet valves I could not skim much off the head surfaces to increase compression.

To get up to 11.5:1 on the 369 I used .027" thick Cometic MLS gaskets. This means the quench height is tight but got me to the compression figure I needed. Cost difference between the standard .042" (?) thickness gasket and the .027" item is not much.

Laughed when I read your note on the Aussie & Fosters experience. A lot of Aussie beers give me a massive headache so not keen on hitting them prior to racing thats for sure!! He was right though, your Falcon would be a big hit in Aussie. A kiwi by the name of Jim Richards (V8 supercar star, has won Bathurst and the Australian Touring Car champs a number of times) recently competed in thier premier historic class in a Falcon Sprint. As I recall it was 289 powered and made around 505hp. Engine was built by a top Aussie pro builder. He won some rounds in that car.

If you look at doing cross over headers let me know as the dimensions may not be ideal for a high revving smaller displacement engine (primary length and diameter). I would recalculate this for you. I have learned a few things since I made mine and would improve the overall design further.

PS's - what is the part number of the CNC heads that you are using Bill? You may be right on the Funnel web height. I run an aircleaner inside my cold air system so it is a little taller than the Panoz set up I think.

Kel.