Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online!
Automotive Forums .com - the leading automotive community online! 
-
Latest | 0 Rplys
Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Racing > Street Racing
View Poll Results: Stock Performance or Tuning Room for Newbies?
I'd tell a newbie to buy a car with as much performance stock as they can. 9 45.00%
I'd tell a newbie to buy a car without a lot of stock performance, but plenty of oppurtunity for tuning so he can learn. 11 55.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread Show Printable Version Show Printable Version | Email this Page Email this Page | Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-05-2002, 08:05 PM   #1
Layla's Keeper
Supermodified
 
Layla's Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Lorain, Ohio
Posts: 3,374
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Performance or Room for Tuning for Beginners

Okay folks, here's the question.

Say you know someone who's finally decided they're going to join the street scene. For the sake of speed in my own estimations, let's say they've decided to go the import/sport compact route. Now, they're on a limited budget, (for the purposes of this argument, let's say $5000 to start) and aren't sure what sort of car they should start out in. They don't have much performance driving experience, but can proficiently drive a manual transmission car. All that they've owned to this point have been bread-and-butter FF compacts (92' EX Civic sedans, as an example) So, the question posed is this; do you send them shopping for the most performance out of the box for their dollar(like a Turbo FC)? Or, do you direct them to a car with less stock performance but with ample room for tinkering and is less expensive (like an Acura Integra) so that they can learn the ropes?

I'll reveal my opinion after a couple of posts. I won't tell until then.
__________________
Proud Owner/Operator of Haven Raceway and Hobby!
Layla's Keeper is offline  
Old 09-05-2002, 09:44 PM   #2
MadZ
AF Enthusiast
 
MadZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'd start with the turbo FC. They may not be the most reliable, but at least they're unique, not to mention there is more potential there to start with and still plenty to tinker around with.

This is just my opinion. I couldn't help but to notice how you worded that last sentence. It's almost as if you are saying there is a right and wrong answer or something.
__________________
'95 Z28 conv. t-56, K&N fipk, airfoil, TB bypass, LT4 KM, flowmaster, CAGS

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.-- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy
MadZ is offline  
Old 09-05-2002, 09:52 PM   #3
street_racer_00
AF Fanatic
 
street_racer_00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,494
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
go with as much performance as you can get in the car in it's original form. If you do that, there is less room to screw up by tuning it. Plus it might cost more in the longrun if you get a tuner car from putting all the crap into it to make it go fast.
__________________
2000 Nissan Maxima SE, autotragic, sterling mist
My Max: Getting smoked by boosted cars since 2004
2004 AF award winner: longest time period w/o posting an actual street racing story
Quote:
Originally Posted by CassiesMan
I got to see boobiues!
street_racer_00 is offline  
Old 09-05-2002, 10:24 PM   #4
BlkCamaroSS
AF Fanatic
 
BlkCamaroSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,740
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to BlkCamaroSS
I'd say a combination of both if possible, but I would probably go with the best powerplant you could afford at the time.

There is always room for learning, regardless of the start...
__________________
2001 Camaro SS #2239 of 6332
1/4 mile time: 13.575 @ 105.55 mph, 60' time: 2.276
307.1 rwhp, 330.1 rwtq = 353.2 hp, 379.5 lb ft torque
Options: SLP Front Grille w/ SS Center Logo, 17" ZR1 Chrome rims, 6 speed, Hurst Short Throw Shifter, Monsoon 500 Watt Sound System, T-tops, 1LE Performance Suspension
Mods: Holley PS Air Filter, SLP Air Box Lid w/ Mr. Ed's pipe fix, SLP CAI, SLP Bellows, SLP LM, SLP Y-pipe, SLP 160 Thermo, SLP Temp Module, SLP STB, KBDD SFC
BlkCamaroSS is offline  
Old 09-05-2002, 10:47 PM   #5
-The Stig-
On Fire!
 
-The Stig-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Long Beach, California
Posts: 10,844
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Send a message via AIM to -The Stig-
hhhmmmmmmmmm with $5000 to start with you can start off with countless cars with good stock performance, ranging from Iroc-Z Camaros, 5.0 Mustangs, 1st Gen Eclipses and Talons, the list can go on and on.

So, i say go for as much performance as possible. A decent 91 Iroc Camaro will set you back say $3500-4000 that leaves about a grand for basics: headers, intake, exhaust, throttle body, and k&n filters. which should leave you about $60 towards the gas you're gonna burn while having fun. heck thats not even touching internals... you could have FUN with internal mods on a 350 motor. Yum! Up the cam for more duration, swap in a 400 crank, ooo 5.7" rods, KB lightweight pistons, and new heads.. yay!!!


BUT, if the driver is a NEW driver, go with least amount of power. Dont want the youngins to get hurt with an over powered car.
__________________
2003 Chevy 1500HD - Hauler
1971 Chevy Camaro RS - Track Car


User Guidelines It's important to read, like the Bible. But unlike the Bible we will strike you down if you jerk off around here.

-The Stig- is offline  
Old 09-06-2002, 01:02 AM   #6
Cbass
AF Fanatic
 
Cbass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Courtenay
Posts: 3,892
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Cbass Send a message via AIM to Cbass Send a message via MSN to Cbass Send a message via Yahoo to Cbass
We're talking dragging here, and it has to be an import? I would say it is probably better to comprimise, but lean more towards the slower car. My reasoning for this is, if you start with a light car with not very much power, and learn to drive it very well, it's only a slight adjustment to add more power and drive it faster.

I would say a S13 hatchback with a KA24 would be a good start. You could pick one up for cheap with a tired engine, and rebuild it with a turbo and better clutch. You could start out with lower boost, and get used to driving it. The gradually increasing your power, you would be able to adjust your launches and shifting.

There is plenty of weight to be lost, taking out the back seat, removing the glass hatch, and so on. There is plenty of potential in a 2.4L DOHC motor when turbocharged.

If we are talking about drag racing, than a domestic would be my choice. The smallblock is king stoplight to stoplight.
__________________


Connor - Porsche Nazi since 2001, VW defiler since 2004

This here's a Fabrication forum!
My lugnut requires more torque than your LS1 makes.
Cbass is offline  
Old 09-06-2002, 12:33 PM   #7
Fliquer
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 930
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Fliquer
If you want a cheap dragger, look for a '87 grand national ('87 was the best year for them). They do high 13s stock and you can find one with plenty less than 100k on the odometer for $5000. They also have a huge potential for tuning. I always see at least a dozen on ebay, even though they are fairly rare on the street.

The problem is they only come in automatic, and the dash/gauges arent really setup for racing. Plus they dont handle as well as an import.

If you must have an import, then a 240sx is a good starter.
__________________
Isitcontagious.com
'92 S13 coupe
KYB adjustable struts + Whiteline springs
Urethane bushings in all control arms and subframe
Cone Filter
Next up: LSD

RIP #05
Fliquer is offline  
Old 09-06-2002, 02:31 PM   #8
R1-rider
AF Enthusiast
 
R1-rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 742
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to R1-rider Send a message via AIM to R1-rider
Quote:
Originally posted by Fliquer
If you want a cheap dragger, look for a '87 grand national ('87 was the best year for them). They do high 13s stock and you can find one with plenty less than 100k on the odometer for $5000. They also have a huge potential for tuning. I always see at least a dozen on ebay, even though they are fairly rare on the street.

The problem is they only come in automatic, and the dash/gauges arent really setup for racing. Plus they dont handle as well as an import.

If you must have an import, then a 240sx is a good starter.
You are out of your mind if you think you can find a GN in good condition for under 8 grand. You can get them for like 3000 but they normally have no motor or tranny's. Plus if they are going for under 10 grand that means that the owner probably didn't keep then tip top shape, and now that the car is 15 years old it has had some wear and tear and is gonna cost alot of dimes and pennies to keep it up and running.
R1-rider is offline  
Old 09-06-2002, 03:10 PM   #9
MadZ
AF Enthusiast
 
MadZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by RedNeck383
hhhmmmmmmmmm with $5000 to start with you can start off with countless cars with good stock performance, ranging from Iroc-Z Camaros, 5.0 Mustangs, 1st Gen Eclipses and Talons, the list can go on and on.
So, i say go for as much performance as possible. A decent 91 Iroc Camaro will set you back say $3500-4000 that leaves about a grand for basics: headers, intake, exhaust, throttle body, and k&n filters. which should leave you about $60 towards the gas you're gonna burn while having fun. heck thats not even touching internals... you could have FUN with internal mods on a 350 motor. Yum! Up the cam for more duration, swap in a 400 crank, ooo 5.7" rods, KB lightweight pistons, and new heads.. yay!!!
yup, wouldn't be hard to put a '91 iroc w/ a 350 into the 13's. I'd have to go that route before I bought an import to start with. Plus there are many more parts out there for a 350. A box mustang 5.0 wouldn't be a bad start either, also very cheap and has the best aftermarket support when it comes to performance parts.
__________________
'95 Z28 conv. t-56, K&N fipk, airfoil, TB bypass, LT4 KM, flowmaster, CAGS

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.-- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy
MadZ is offline  
Old 09-06-2002, 03:58 PM   #10
Layla's Keeper
Supermodified
Thread starter
 
Layla's Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Lorain, Ohio
Posts: 3,374
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Well, there really is no real right answer, I just didn't want to hold my opinion over everyone else's before they had a chance to answer.

Cbass, I'm afraid we aren't necessarily talking dragging, also. More of an all puropse sort of machine, with more emphasis on turn and burn racing than light to light. That's why I put driver skill into question. I'm glad to see many people have an opinion on the topic, though.

As for myself, I lean towards starting newbies out in low power cars with at least one handling bug. The way I learned (though this is WAAAAY out of the norm) is through racing quarter midgets and Formula 440's back when I was about thirteen with one of my Mom's friends. I usually suggest cars like Integras (power off oversteer is a weird experience for a newbie, it helps them to learn it) or Hachi-Rokus (teach them FR and they will thank you for it). Plus, they need to learn how to work on their cars. It's a tough time for a newbie to try and deal with getting connecting rods for a JDM engine after he grenaded it trying out a nitrous system. That's why I suggest cheap cars without too much power, good (if occasionally quirky) handling, and plenty of aftermarket support.

Not that I necessarily disagree with more bang for the buck.
__________________
Proud Owner/Operator of Haven Raceway and Hobby!
Layla's Keeper is offline  
Old 09-06-2002, 06:48 PM   #11
Fliquer
AF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 930
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Fliquer
Just for the sake of argument, there is a 87 GN going for $4500 on ebay. It has 73k mile on it. Though its far from perfect, I would consider it to be in good condition.
__________________
Isitcontagious.com
'92 S13 coupe
KYB adjustable struts + Whiteline springs
Urethane bushings in all control arms and subframe
Cone Filter
Next up: LSD

RIP #05
Fliquer is offline  
Old 09-06-2002, 08:03 PM   #12
R1-rider
AF Enthusiast
 
R1-rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 742
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to R1-rider Send a message via AIM to R1-rider
Ebay is a very innacurate way of trying to get a standard low price. The obvious one is the fact that it is an ongoing bid and while it may be 4500 not it could be 8000 before it closes. And alot of the bids are setup with reservers, or they claim the right to cancel any winner etc. I usually use autotrader or kbb.
R1-rider is offline  
Old 09-07-2002, 10:08 PM   #13
Cbass
AF Fanatic
 
Cbass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Courtenay
Posts: 3,892
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Cbass Send a message via AIM to Cbass Send a message via MSN to Cbass Send a message via Yahoo to Cbass
True, and cars often go for a lot less than what a good example would be worth in a private sale.

If it's also involving handling and braking, the S13 gets even better. I would also recommend an 86, but it's hard to get more power out of them, since you only have 1.6 liters to work with. Of course, with a good turbocharging, or a swap to a 20V.

http://www.4agze.com/gallery/engines/

They would all fit in an 86
__________________


Connor - Porsche Nazi since 2001, VW defiler since 2004

This here's a Fabrication forum!
My lugnut requires more torque than your LS1 makes.
Cbass is offline  
Old 09-08-2002, 09:57 PM   #14
Cbass
AF Fanatic
 
Cbass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Courtenay
Posts: 3,892
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Cbass Send a message via AIM to Cbass Send a message via MSN to Cbass Send a message via Yahoo to Cbass
Everyone should start out with a car that has no nuts. It's essential to becoming a better driver.

When you start out with very little power, you have to learn to make the most of it! If you have a 300hp car, cornering and braking are not as important as they are in a 150hp car. In fact, launching is not as important in a 300hp car either. In a 150hp car, you have to improve on your skills if you want to go any faster, and I think you gain a deeper sense of car control.

As you add power to the car, the balance of the car changes gradually, and you know exactly when to put that power to use, and still retain the skills you garnered coping with the aenimia of the car's engine.
__________________


Connor - Porsche Nazi since 2001, VW defiler since 2004

This here's a Fabrication forum!
My lugnut requires more torque than your LS1 makes.
Cbass is offline  
Old 09-09-2002, 12:11 PM   #15
R1-rider
AF Enthusiast
 
R1-rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 742
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to R1-rider Send a message via AIM to R1-rider
Well said Cbass, you are absolutely correct. There is nothing like starting out in a slowass car that helps you improve your driving skills to depend less on the potential of the car, and more on the potential of your driving. I started out in a 1985 dull gold corolla that had 280K miles on it, the little bastard ran great but I could get out and push faster then it took off. Another thing it helped with is judging situations correctly (can I make this turn before that car gets here). Even now when I am in a more powerful car that doesn't bog or anything, I still take the same cautious approach more out of old habbit then anything.
R1-rider is offline  
 
Closed Thread

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD

Go Back   Automotive Forums .com Car Chat > Racing > Street Racing

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:41 AM.

Community Participation Guidelines | How to use your User Control Panel

Powered by: vBulletin | Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
 
 
no new posts