Ugh! Clutch problem...

[SaucyTabasco]

Well, I think I've actually had my first debilitating Z ailment today. Been workin double shifts back to back, was 4,000 miles into my oil change (use full synth so not too worried) but I knew it was cutting it close, I like to stick to 3,000. If I didnt get it done today it wouldnt happen for a while. Anyhow, I decided now would be a good time to Sea Foam my engine, so while on break at work I took my intake hoses off, sprayed the throttle boddies really well with carb cleaner and scrubbed em w/ a toothbrush, ran that junk through a bit (I'm usually nice to my car but gave it hell to burn the crap out), and then sucked a bottle of sea form down through my brake booster line. Let it soak for a few minutes, then proceeded to give it hell a bit, stickin with 10 or so 5-6,000 rpm shifts into 2nd gear in the confined parking lot. Afterwards, I take it to valvoline (dont shoot me) and did the normal routine. "Alright, can you turn your car on so we can check your pressure"...thats when it started. No sooner did I put my foot on the clutch and the petal went halfway beck with no resistance! Startled I pulled off and it came back, so I tried again, to find the results worse. With each pump it kept playing more and more until after about 5 pumps it had no pressure and upon setting my foot on the petal it flew to the back of the floorboard! I had to actually reach down with my hand at this point to retrieve the pedal! Trust me, I was pissed - I thought they somehow cut a line or drained my clutch fluid accidently, but then after looking it over my clutch fluid was still full ( and has been ever since, although it appears after the incident it was overflowing as if the pressure exceeded the containment power of the cap, not a lot, just a little), so I pretty well figured it couldnt have been anything of their doing - probably. After reason set in I began to wonder if that throwout bearing I was talking about in my other post had finally given up on me (if thats what the noise even was), so I had them roll me out of the bay. I guess at this point I should mention that when turned on, I could not get the car in gear no matter how hard I tried to shift! I simply wouldnt come out of nuetral. I could get it in gear before turning the engine over, such as in 1st or reverse, but that wasnt gonna get me far since i wasnt going to risk shifting w/out a clutch and further damaging the transmission. So basically I have a car that will turn over (as if the clutch were depressed), yet will not go into gear (which *should*follow the logic of the clutch being depressed). Anyhow, past being confused and pissed im now at the point that I think I have narrowed it down to possibly the Main clutch cylinder, slave cylinder, or the throwout bearing. I have it at a trusted local mechanics shop, but he cant even get on it till monday, so if possible I want to see if I can figure anything out tommorow.

Anyone have any ideas of what I should be looking for as indicators as to which of these culprits may be causing the problem, if not something else? I have tried to describe everything as accurately as I can, but there were no precursor symptoms to this event aside from that buzz noise which was made between shifts on a cold engine. Shifts have always been smooth, no grinding, pulled into that oil change bay today without the slightest problem in the world until I tried to restart my car, so as I said there hasnt been anything to lead me to believe that anything was going to happen.

On another note, what can I expect to dish out for these repairs on these three hypothetical culprits? I am aware the Master cylinder is relatively easy to access, and after finding some numbers I figured even through a mechanic I shouldnt be shelling out more than a bit over $125 for an overpriced one (I saw em for around $65-85), but Im still unsure of how involved replacing the unit is so if anyone could give me a guidline as to how long I should expect to pay a mechanic for this work it would help a lot!

Also, as I said its quite possible it could be the throwout bearing or slave cylinder, but I have no idea where these are even located on the car. Anyone have any ideas how many hours or $$ I might be looking at to pay someone for the work on either of these?

I really want to start working on my car myself, but right now Im just not in a position time wise to be able to not have the car operating and do not fully trust myself enough to perform more involved procedures, so for now I am having to opt to pay someone else...but that in itself is one of the main motivators to get me to do it myself! Lesson learned, but Ive got to get through this first...any help would be appreciated, my Z is just sitting

[Broke_as_****]

The slave cylinder is mounted on the side of the transmission and it's a little hydraulic piston that pushes against the clutch fork and disengages the clutch. The throw out bearing sits between the clutch fork and the clutch pressure plate. It's just there so the immobile clutch fork can press against the spinning clutch.

A throw out bearing usually won't preclude you from disengaging the transmission, it tends to make a huge racket when it goes bad but it's usually not disabling. Replacing the throwout bearing requires dropping the transmission.

A bad slave cylinder will definitely interfere with normal clutch action. Sometimes the piston slips out, some times the seals around the piston go bad, visual inspection is required for diagnosis. The slave is easy to access and is very simple to replace. Unbolt the old one, bolt on the new one and bleed the clutch.

The master cylinder is also a simple piece of equipment and usually only fails when the internal seals go bad. This prevents an pressure from being created and the clutch from being disengaged. The master cylinder is slightly more involved to replace than the slave but not by much. Unbolt the one and remove the connection to the clutch pedal rod, install new one, bleed the clutch. Shouldn't take a skilled mechanic more than an hour or so.

[SaucyTabasco]

Thanks Broke, I will update as to what exactly the problem is/was!

By the way, thanks for the tip about the used Borla's, I actually bought them from the guy today! Only 'problem' is there are no resonators, so I was actually going to once again ask your 'proffesional' opinion on that one . In terms of functionality im sure the car will run just fine, im a bit concerned that without them though the N/A might be a little too loud (?), but im sure generic resonators can be had elsewhere on the net? I looked at borlas website and could not find them by themselves. Ill probably end up mounting them w/out, see if I like the sound, and as long as its not belligerant per se, Ill keep em that way! I'm just wondering at this point if w/out them I'll have to add extra piping to compensate for the length....

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by SaucyTabasco

Thanks Broke, I will update as to what exactly the problem is/was!

By the way, thanks for the tip about the used Borla's, I actually bought them from the guy today! Only 'problem' is there are no resonators, so I was actually going to once again ask your 'proffesional' opinion on that one . In terms of functionality im sure the car will run just fine, im a bit concerned that without them though the N/A might be a little too loud (?), but im sure generic resonators can be had elsewhere on the net? I looked at borlas website and could not find them by themselves. Ill probably end up mounting them w/out, see if I like the sound, and as long as its not belligerant per se, Ill keep em that way! I'm just wondering at this point if w/out them I'll have to add extra piping to compensate for the length....

Go to any local exhaust shop and they should have some cheap but decent quality resonators they can splice in if it's too loud for you.

[SaucyTabasco]

Well we are getting somewhere, just not as fast as I wanted. Turns out to be the clutch master and slave cylinder were bad, but for some reason the guy working on my car has been having problems making the pressure correct after repeated bleedings (through both valves). The clutch doesnt engage until almost 2-3 inches from the floorboard, where it used to engage after being depressed 1-2 inches! He tried adjusting the pedal to no avail also...any suggestions broke (or anyone)? I need it fixed soon because I want to go to Z nationals! Just running out of ideas of what could be wrong, and so is my mechanic...and he's the one whos supposed to be good at this stuff! Thank you!


By the way he says its holding a constant pressure, so I dont think air is being re-introduced into the system somewhere...its just either got air in it still or not pressurizing correctly somehow. *sigh* Just when I went out on a limb and bought those borlas this had to happen. I just want a working car...

[Broke_as_****]

Have you looked at the clutch fork and pivot ball? Does the clutch fork flop around at all? Anything rattling around inside the bell housing? Clutch pedal adjusted the correct way? Crap in the fluid (indications of torn up seals in the master cylinder)?

[SaucyTabasco]

Hooray, it's fixed! Just needed to be bled a few more times...

Slave/Master Cylinder

Thanks for the help guys.