Scale finishes paint?

[73superduty]

Originally Posted by stryfe101

Thanks for this thread guys, I just ordered some Ultimate Black Opal from them and its my first order. Makes me feel better that i've read some good reviews.

I guess its time to get a dehydrator too then..

Gray

Yes Gray, I found a dehydrator speeds the process of drying considerably. It works well to heat cans too if you have to go that route.
Not sure what I would do without mine. Probably watch paint dry!
Chris

[Porsnatic]

Zoom, what's the temperature setting you use?

[Porsnatic]

360spider, what's the temperature setting you use?

[CifeNet]

I also bought some several weeks ago for my project, but I have not yet used them.

Will use it in next few days and report back here!

[Didymus]

Originally Posted by MPWR

OK, I had missed that. Yeah I agree that the 'basecoat' is likely an acrylic lacquer- the key words being 'solvent based'. But he application guide doesn't make much sense to be. 5 min between coats and 20 min before clearcoating seems frighteningly fast.

Based on the flat finish and the quick drying time, they sound like automotive urethanes to me. AUs also require a medium temp reducer. Ordinary lacquer thinner can cause curdling.

In normal humidity, AUs flash almost instantly. The five-minute wait time is about right. The finish is very smooth; there's virtually no orange peel.

I get them in coded colors at my local automotive paint supplier. If I want to look at samples, they have several Dupont and PPG books I can select from.

Synthetic clear lacquers (U-POL, Tamiya TS-13) and 2K urethane clearcoats work just fine over automotive urethanes.

[kans0002]

what is the web site for scale finishes and cobra colors so I can order some?

[tonioseven]

www.scalefinishes.com . Cobra Colors paints are no longer available. However, there are some of us that have a few bottles stashed away

[robertgreen94]

Question on the food dehydrator. Is there any special brand or can you pick up a regular one from Bed Bath & Beyond. What sort of drying timespeed up are we talking here?

[CifeNet]

Hi guys,

I said I would report back here after my first experience with the Scale Finish paints.

Well, here is my report.

First of all, I am a heavy acrylic paint user. I am not a subject matter expert when it comes to lacquer based paints.

Having said that, I do use lacquer based paints when the coloring matching option is limited. Scale Finish paints being automotive/lacquer, I might not have all of the expertise as some of you guys already have. So this is purely FYI only.



I decided to give a try on this snap style Camero kit which my 4 year boy assembled last year. No paint has went on and I don't think he minds if I use this as a guinea pig for my paint testing session.



When I was building Enzo using the Finisher's paint for the first time, I remember testing the paint on another Camero kit although that was 1/32 scale.

I guess Camero kits are becoming my test kits!

At any rate, I am sure you will agree that it all makes sense to test unknown paint on a junk kit first.



The paint is called Velocity Yellow. I think this would be a good test since yellow is not the easiest color to spray because of its transparency characteristic.

My first attempt, this was a light mist coat without thinning straight out of the bottle. The body has been primed two coats using Tamiya's lacquer primer and was cured roughly 3 hours before the first coat.

Coat 1.(hood) : light mist, 20psi, no thinner



I dried the coat in the dehydrator for 3 minutes and applied another light coat. And this is the result. You can see "spots" where the color is uneven.

Coat 2.(hood) : light mist, 20psi, no thinner



After another drying session of roughly 3 minutes, I have sprayed a thicker coat with less pressure for more volume. Noticeably darker and less spots visible.

I think this was a mistake. This was when I noticed that the paint solvent was starting eat into the primer and the plastic itself (see red arrows). Should I have gone with another light mist? Should I have gone with medium coat? Hmmm....

Coat 3.(hood) : heavy mist, 15psi, no thinner



Dried another 3 minutes. Realizing I screwed up the paint session, I took another approach at this time. I have added "Mr. Gunze Self Leveling lacquer thinner" in 3:1 ratio to the paint and the thinner. Maybe this will lessen the paint solvent potency.

And then started another session on the roof!

Coat 4.(hood) : light mist, 15psi, 3:1 thinner
Coat 1.(roof) : light mist, 15psi, 3:1 thinner



Dried 3 minutes, and then repeated the light coat. I can see the etched surface on the hood is being covered with layer of paint. But this still does not fix what I have done wrong.

Coat 5.(hood) : light mist, 15psi, 3:1 thinner
Coat 2.(roof) : light mist, 15psi, 3:1 thinner



3 minutes drying, switching to a medium mist session. The hood doesn't get darker anymore even though I shoot more paint. The roof is coming out nicely. Diluting with a paint thinner seems to be helping.

Coat 6.(hood) : medium mist, 15psi, 3:1 thinner
Coat 3.(roof) : medium mist, 15psi, 3:1 thinner



Staying with medium mist, I have lower the psi to 12. The hood color doesn't get darker and didn't see any difference. The roof is as dark as the hood and it is smoother.

Coat 7.(hood) : medium mist, 12psi, 3:1 thinner
Coat 4.(roof) : medium mist, 12psi, 3:1 thinner



3 minutes drying session, another medium coat application. For sake of testing, why not go another round?

Coat 8.(hood) : medium mist, 12psi, 3:1 thinner
Coat 5.(roof) : medium mist, 12psi, 3:1 thinner



It this point, it seems to be not affecting the outcome.

I can see the the hood surface etching issue has been less visible, maybe I can fix it by sanding and patching.

Coat 9.(hood) : medium mist, 12psi, 3:1 thinner
Coat 6.(roof) : medium mist, 12psi, 3:1 thinner



Let's make it 10 times, the hood is not getting any better, but it is not getting worse. The roof is decent and I would be satisfied to apply clear coat at this point after some light sanding.

Coat 10.(hood) : medium mist, 12psi, 3:1 thinner
Coat 7.(roof) : medium mist, 12psi, 3:1 thinner



Another picture showing the colors. I am satisfy with the roof, but not the hood.

My conclusion is that, thinning the paint does help, multiple light and medium coats were all I needed for this color. I would stay away from applying heavy coats, although I might have made a mistake shooting way too heavy.

As most of the lacquer paints, the paint doesn't show shine at this stage, a clear coat is required.



Here are some of the tools I have used to perform the color test. I use Adobe LightRoom software to record and keep track of photos I took.

It keeps the camera settings, organize photos by dates/keywords, etc, which is very helpful when taking multiple pictures of same object!



Of course, this is to protect my health, a correct filter is needed for protecting from the paint fumes!



And this is the dehydrator which I get to use, my my wife. I used this to speed up the drying time between the coats. 137"F was used.



This is the reason I am going through the mess of learning the painting process. Scale Finish's Velocity Yellow seems to be a good match, I just hope it is worth the trouble.

Ok, thanks for reading up this long boring report. Let me know if you have any questions or things I should have done better.

[robertgreen94]

I am going to ask what is probably 2 dumb questions. 1) how much paint have you used out of the 2oz and 2) if you are painting yellow would you not have used a white undercoat? Wondering how far 2oz gets you as I have the 1/12 jagermeister and I am not sure if 2oz is enough?

[CifeNet]

Originally Posted by robertgreen94

I am going to ask what is probably 2 dumb questions. 1) how much paint have you used out of the 2oz and 2) if you are painting yellow would you not have used a white undercoat? Wondering how far 2oz gets you as I have the 1/12 jagermeister and I am not sure if 2oz is enough?

You are correct, we should use "white" or brighter color-ed primer on yellow. If you look at the picture closely, you can see that the hood and the "front" of the roof received the white primer.

I started out with "gray" coat and then followed by "white" on the frontal area.

After this testing, it looks as though I have only used 1/6th of the paint. Looks like I can probably cover two to three cars in 1/24 scale, but again this one is yellow and it needs more coats than other darker paints.

I think 2oz might be very close when painting 1/12 (assuming orange), but I am not too so absolutely certain...

My gut feeling is that you can probably give 2 light coats and 1 full medium/heavy coat with 2oz if you diluted with a proper amount of thinner.

[Didymus]

White primer makes an enormous difference. It's another world compared to what you've attempted.

Seems like you were struggling to fully cover the gray primer by using multiple coats, thick coats and heavy, wet coats. It may be the photos, but it looks like you still haven't achieved full coverage; to be blunt, the yellow still looks drab. For your next attempt, white Tamiya primer is the obvious solution; it's much more opaque than regular paint, so you can use far fewer color coats.

In a nutshell, white primer should always be used under yellow, red, and all light colors.

I don't know about the opacity of Scale Finishes, but with PPG or Dupont Chromabase urethanes, I get a brilliant finish with just two color coats, even shooting white, pale yellow or a pastel tint.

Wet coats seem to have caused you problems. Once again, they aren't necessary if you've got white primer underneath. I use those automotive urethanes thinned 3:1 with medium temp reducer, and I've never had a problem with solvent "eating into the primer." (I buy both the basecoat and the reducer locally at Finishmasters, an automotive paint supply house. The basecoat costs $14 for 2 oz.)

Automotive urethanes flash in less than a minute, and are fully dry in less than ten. With paint that dries at that rate, I've never seen the need for a dehydrator.

[CifeNet]

Originally Posted by Didymus

For your next attempt, white Tamiya primer is the obvious solution; it's much more opaque than regular paint, so you can use far fewer color coats.

Would you believe there was white primer underneath? See the previous posting/comment, another member suggested that. Maybe the photos weren't bouncing off the "white" clearly. Maybe I shot these pics with less light...

Originally Posted by Didymus

Automotive urethanes flash in less than a minute, and are fully dry in less than ten minutes. With paint that dries at that rate, I've never seen the need for a dehydrator.

Now you are confusing me; are you referring urethanes as the automotive lacquer? These lacquer based paints (Scale Finish) evaporate as they dry.

My understanding of the urethanes are cured via a harder.

Two different types, no? Maybe we are not using the same terms?...

Possible that I may be using too much thinner, but I never had my paints (All types) fully drying on me less than ten minutes. If I can achieve that, it would be fantastic I'd start polishing in 30 minutes then.

[Didymus]

Originally Posted by CifeNet

Would you believe there was white primer underneath?

Sorry for the confusion.

Which raises the question: How many coats did it take to get full coverage? For flat-finish basecoats that don't require sanding, there's no need to apply more coats than are necessary to fully cover the primer.

Aside from the underexposed photo, you first coat seems to have been your best coat. Tip from Tom: Don't try to fix mistakes by applying more paint!

When things go bad, stop right there and let it cure. Then you can decide whether you can fix things by sanding and re-coating, or if you need to strip and start over.

By the way, I doubt that a coat of fresh paint was eating into the primer, especially since the paint was not thinned. There was something else going on; I'm not sure what.

Now you are confusing me; are you referring urethanes as the automotive lacquer? These lacquer based paints (Scale Finish) evaporate as they dry.

Did I say anything about automotive lacquer?

I couldn't find anything on the SF website that says the paints are "lacquer-based," although they may be. He uses the phrase "solvent based," which isn't very informative, since all except waterborne paints are solvent-based. The SF paints can be thinned with lacquer thinner, but that's true of just about everything!

He does say that his primer is "lacquer based." I assume he means synthetic lacquer; real lacquer is very unfriendly to styrene.

My understanding of the urethanes are cured via a harder.

Some are; some aren't. For small jobs, nick n' dent guys use 1K urethanes that don't require a catalyzing hardener. That's what I use. I don't think the 1K urethanes are quite as durable as the 2K type, but it doesn't matter, since we don't leave our models out in the freezing rain or scorching sun.

Urethanes are not lacquers. In fact, it's illegal to sell true lacquers where I live. Lacquer thinner will clean up urethane, but, depending on temperature, it can also cause it to curdle. So I never use it to thin urethanes. I only use medium temp reducer at a 3:1 ratio, in accordance with instructions from my automotive paint supplier. (Automotive urethane is very thick.)

Possible that I may be using too much thinner, but I never had my paints (All types) fully drying on me less than ten minutes. If I can achieve that, it would be fantastic I'd start polishing in 30 minutes then.

A. Yes, you may be. The SF instructions say that it's pre-thinned. The usual sign of too-thick paint is orange peel, but that wasn't a problem for you.

B. More thinner normally accelerates drying; it doesn't slow it down.

C. Properly thinned automotive urethanes are dry to the touch in about two minutes, maybe less. But they require a clear-coat, and clear-coats take longer to cure.

D. Polishing? I assume you're using SF's "solvent-based acrylic basecoat," so it can't be polished. On the other hand, their "Gloss Acrylic Enamels" dry glossy and can be polished.

I have talked about pricing in other posts. Suffice to say that I think 1K automotive urethanes purchased from an automotive paint supply house are a very good deal.

Best of luck with your "real" model!

[CifeNet]

Thanks for the clarification, it makes more sense now that what you are referring to.

Originally Posted by Didymus

Which raises the question: How many coats did it take to get full coverage? For flat-finish basecoats that don't require sanding, there's no need to apply more coats than are necessary to fully cover the primer.

I would say my third coat attempt seem (roof) to be my base. Remember though, this isn't to lay a perfect coat. This was more of experimenting to see what I get.

I would say 10th coat is probably crazy in real life, but repeating multiple test may strenghten my findings. And you would agree that it was entertaining to look at.

Originally Posted by Didymus

Aside from the underexposed photo, you first coat seems to have been your best coat. Tip from Tom: Don't try to fix mistakes by applying more paint!

When things go bad, stop right there and let it cure.

Seeing color saturation spots, I thought my first coat didn't cover enough? Hmmm...

Originally Posted by Didymus

By the way, I doubt that a coat of fresh paint was eating into the primer, especially since the paint was not thinned. There was something else going on; I'm not sure what.

Yes, this is what I am interested to find out. The surface seem to be reacting quite badly. My guess was that the "pre-thinned" paint solvent was too strong. I could be wrong, but it didn't happen on my second test (roof) when I dilutted with modeling thinner.

Originally Posted by Didymus

Did I say anything about automotive lacquer?

No you didn't, but my post was all about lacquers. I assumed Scale Finish paints are lacquer based. I didn't have other information that they were otherwise and was confused why you were discussing about urethanes.

Originally Posted by Didymus

A. Yes, you may be. The SF instructions say that it's pre-thinned. The usual sign of too-thick paint is orange peel, but that wasn't a problem for you.

B. More thinner normally accelerates drying; it doesn't slow it down.

C. Properly thinned automotive urethanes are dry to the touch in about two minutes, maybe less. But they require a clear-coat, and clear-coats take longer to cure.

D. Polishing? I assume you're using SF's "solvent-based acrylic basecoat," so it can't be polished. On the other hand, their "Gloss Acrylic Enamels" dry glossy and can be polished.

A. Right, they are pre-thinned and that was the approach I started out with.
B. Understood, but remember that self-leveling thinner actually slows down the curing time and it is the sole purpose.
C. That's excellent! This could be a big advantage. Unfortunately, I am bit hesitant to use "urethanes"...
D. Right, these paints require clearcoat.

To recap, your feedback is that the paint seems to be okay, but I may have applied too much. I think so too, I may try lighter coats and redo the test to see what I get.

But I may also play around with the adding more thinner just to see it makes anything better or worse.