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10-13-2004, 03:28 PM | #31 | ||
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Re: Re: Gas mileage question.
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10-13-2004, 04:34 PM | #32 | |
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Re: Gas mileage question.
sitting back...letting buck argue with people who know what they are talking about (im not even gonna get into this one...me having HS chemistry and curtis73 being a double chemistry major)...i do, however, know that propane (and all hydrocarbons for that matter) produces carbonmonoxide when burned. dont think carbonmonoxide is harmful? go get in a clauset with a prpane stove and burn away untill you die or wakeup with carbonmonoxide poisining in the hospital...
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10-13-2004, 04:41 PM | #33 | |
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Re: Gas mileage question.
I agree that heat is energy, but if the explosion is creating heat, then it is not being 100% efficent in creating mechanical energy. A 100% efficiant explosion shouldn't create heat, should it? If you eliminate the excess energy that is there, the efficiency of the explosion should be 100%. Now, the motor will not be 100% efficient itself, but all the energy going into it will be turned to mechanical energy, with no excess heat. The friction in the bearing and such will create some heat, but not 150 degrees worth. Heat is energy, and the motor is losing heat to itself, but the process of turning chemical energy to mechanical energy is losing energy because it creates heat. Without some kind of boiler, heat energy cannot be turned to mechanical energy, so it serves only one purpose to the car. Heating the inside during winter, and if all excess heat went into the car, that wouldn't be good. A simple electric heater uses less energy to warm the car than warming up the entire motor, radiator, and heating coils, wouldn't you agree? I think I might have restated things that were already said by others, but a standard combustion motor can run on things other than gasoline, particularily when you break the gasoline molecule down in evaporation.
Acids react to water because water pulls a hydrogen molecule off of the acid, not vice versa. Water also pulls the hydrogen molecules off of the gasoline molecule, allowing it to break down further into other molecules because it has a hydrogen defficiency.
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10-13-2004, 05:39 PM | #34 | ||
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Re: Re: Gas mileage question.
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One question out of the blue: Why do they call a radiator a radiator? Shouldn't it be along the lines of a heat exchanger since the heat is being transfered between a solid and a liquid? |
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10-13-2004, 05:50 PM | #35 | |
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Re: Gas mileage question.
its called a radiator because it "radiates" excess heat. and Buick...if you read my post on why engines dont work at 100% energy use then yo uwould know why... its on the 1st page of this form 4th reply...
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10-13-2004, 07:26 PM | #36 | |
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Re: Gas mileage question.
I know that a motor can't 100% efficient. All of the resistance caused by A/C, P/S, Altenator, water pump, SCs, belts, and so forth prevent that. But the explosion in the cylinder should be. If it were, way, way less heat would be created than what normally is because all of the energy would be used in ignition, not creating heat to cause ignition. Dispersing the heat isn't the problem. Having as much as there is is pointless. If you reduce heat, you reduce engine wear, and fluid wear. Less of those plastic intake manifolds cracking...
You are sure that propane produces CO then? I didn't realize that a propane motor produced a toxic amount of CO (CO is toxic if it is concentrated enough) that it can't be used in warehouse settings. I guess being in a warehouse where they use trucks that run on propane as opposed to deisel or gasoline has made me unaware of the CO produced by the combustion of it. Maybe the explosion inside the cylinder is almost 100% efficient, and they produce so little it has a very minimul effect on anything surrounding it. The propane changes it's physicle state to a gas as soon as it is injected into the manifold. I know, I have converted 3 305 v8's to the system. A gas burns more efficiently than a liquid because you don't need a huge volumn of heat to burn it. It readily ignites. Many warning labels that concern this say "warning, do not expose to spark. Fumes may ignite". I don't see anything there about a liquid. sparks don't really create heat, and that is why some of the fuel from the injectors is meant to evaporate. A liquid with flammable fumes needs to be heated to it's flash point to explode. Fumes simply need a spark. *propane stoves are used to create heat out of propane, not explode it. A percussion explosion won't cook a hotdog.
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10-13-2004, 08:39 PM | #37 | |
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Actually when an engine is under load its efficiency increases. This also includes full throttle, although your fuel mileage will decrease... sorry i can't give a very clear explaination.
By increasing the compression of the air/fuel charge in the cylinder we increase the efficiency by liberating more of the chemical energy stored in the fuel through the combustion process... thats why diesels are more efficient than gasoline engines because of the higher compression ratios used. Spark is hot your just not exposed to it long enough to get burned...now people who have been struck by lightning have burns. Propane in its natural state is in a gaseous form.....I've frost burned myself with propane, explain that.
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10-13-2004, 08:40 PM | #38 | ||
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Re: Re: Gas mileage question.
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10-13-2004, 11:47 PM | #39 | ||||||||
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Re: Re: Gas mileage question.
Still going at this. Please take these seriously, theres no reason in being stubborn. No, a motor is not 100% efficient. Heat is NOT a loss of energy, HEAT IS ENERGY. Absolute 0, (0 Kelvin) is named that for the fact where that is the point where there is NO energy/NO heat. All molecules cease to move. The burning of the fuel is a lot more efficient then the transfer of energy. When the fuel is ignited the fuels potential energy is released in the form of heat. Yes, other factors produce heat, but those sources of heat are all coming from the energy initially released in the combustion process. The motor harnesses the REACTION of this conversion from fuel to heat. An engine that doesn't burn all of the fuel is said to be running rich. The heat and unburned fuel is passed out of the exhaust. There is a major loss of energy right there. Other losses include yes, friction within the motor. A motor that is 100% efficient would have no heat coming out of the exhaust nor any unburned fuel. It would have converted all of the chemical energy in to mechanical energy. This is IMPOSSIBLE due to the fact that heat is lost in many places, including the radiator and the surface of the motor. A 100% effecient explosion WILL create heat. The only way to get the reaction to 100% efficiency is to have the chemical equation completely balanced. (yes, if you remove the excess POTENTIAL energy, (the rest of the equation) the reaction should have been 100% efficient) Gasoline engines, Steam engines, Nuclear engines, ALL involve heat.
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You're contradicting yourself. Ignition is the initial energy to get the process of converting the fuel into energy (HEAT). The ignition is started by the spark plug, yes residual heat through the cylinder helps. The heat is the energy throughout the whole system. Other than the ladder, that whole statement you said makes no sense. You're basically saying that the reaction from the fuel converting into heat should be 100% efficient. Which I agree with. However, you're trying to take it to the fact that, with that 100% efficient reaction, you need less potential energy. This gives you less power. Easy terms, you're saying that heat is pointless... so lets recap Heat=Energy Less Heat= Less Energy Less Fuel= Less Energy Less Fuel=Less Energy=Less Heat And by less energy, you have less power. You can't run 350 HP with that little fuel, it still takes a certain amount of fuel to creat that much energy. The reason cars use radiators and such to disperse heat is the mettalurgy of the materials. They weren't meant to operate at such high temperatures. You're essentially saying, you can cut fuel(potential energy) by 200% and still have the potential energy. You're calling it heat on one side of the equation and naming it energy on the other side and treating them as two different variables. Thats as far as I can pick out. Quote:
Anything else left to clear up? Joe |
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10-14-2004, 02:49 AM | #40 | ||
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Re: Re: Gas mileage question.
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http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12...ectrolysis.htm this guy has a water injection system. gas mileage increase? zero. but the inside of his engine i bet is really clean. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...threadid=35581 are we done yet? |
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10-14-2004, 04:40 AM | #41 | |
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Re: Gas mileage question.
I don't mean this post to be offesive, so please don't take it that way .
"The motor is constantly converting/losing energy. " "Heat is NOT a loss of energy" So, how does the motor lose energy? If a motor is creating a large amount of heat energy, it is not efficiently creating mechanical energy. This is a type of percussion explosion: Ever ignited a firecracker in your palm? It causes a small burn. Close your fist around it and ignite it, you won't be using that hand for the rest of your life. And, a heat explosion: A nuclear missile is fired onto a the surface of a test island. That island no longer exists. Heat explosions are used to destroy by surface contact. Percussion explosions are used to destroy by being contained. A smaller explosion can produce the same effect as a larger explosion by simply containing it inside an object, as opposed to placing a huge one on the surface. "Its going to burn SLOWER than vaporized gasoline due to the fact that it has LESS surface area. But the same amount of energy will be there." "Take a gallon of gasoline in a bucket, and throw a match in... tell me that doesn't burn." Yes, fuel burns. Burns. It expands while burning, but not at the same rate as an explosion "It would have converted all of the chemical energy in to mechanical energy. This is IMPOSSIBLE due to the fact that heat is lost in many places" "When the fuel is ignited the fuels potential energy is released in the form of heat." All this potential energy and heat energy is being lost...it's almost tragic. "The lead that used to be added, tetraethyl (I belive) is no where near reactive with H20." Ahh, exaclty. It doesn't react with H2O, so water won't normally react to the gasoline molecule to which it is attached. And, any molecule that prevents this reaction is called lead-based, even if it isn't lead. They are in our fuel to prevent this process. "but with less carbons put into the exhaust" "carbon monoxide" Why not use these carbons that become left over before they are burned? You seem to be forgetting that the water is added to change the gasoline to methanol and methane. Add it up, when gasoline molecules and water molecules react, they will form those two chemicals, among others. Ask our resident double Chemistry major what H3O is. Because the H2O molecule stole the one H molecule from the gasoline molecule, it allows the further breakdown of the gasoline molecule. "Ignition is the initial energy to get the process of converting the fuel into energy (HEAT). The ignition is started by the spark plug, yes residual heat through the cylinder helps. The heat is the energy throughout the whole system." Igniting liquid Gasoline requires that residual heat. It not just helps, it makes the ignition possible. If you evaporate the gas, it has already gained a huge amount of energy, and requires very little to detonate. No residual heat needed. A gas takes up more surface area than a liquid, therefore you can use less of it to fill a certain area than if you used a liquid. You fill the cylinder with evap. gas, using less total gas for the same result. "It is also used for the fact that propane is in a sealed environment where as gasoline fuems can leak" If you seal off gasoline, it won't leak out, either. What you're saying is that if I let my car sit for two years, all the gas will evaporate out of my pressurized gas tank. wow. "the fuel converting into heat should be 100% efficient" No, I am saying the fuel converting to MECHANICAL energy should be 100% efficient, creating little or no heat at all. "Let me guess, you've frost burned yourself on it as you were letting out of its compressed container? LP GAS (LIQUID PETROLEUM GAS) is liquid under high pressures. Now, without an ignition source as well as a a reactant (oxygen) you're missing two parts of the triangle for combustion. The reason it frost burned you is its rapid expansion. In liquid form the molecules are close to eachother. When its depressurized it wants to go back to its gaseous state. To do so the molecules must move about quicker hense take more energy in the form of heat. They take this heat energy off of your body, since its abosorbing the heat from your body, it makes it feel cold, as such, frost burn." The rapid expansion frost burned his hand. It also pulls energy from the air around it. Hence the reason of pre-evaporating the gasoline. It gets all the energy it needs from the air. All that is left for it to do is be exposed to a spark, such as static electricity, which I can guarentee doesn't "run" anywhere near 500 degrees celcius. if it did, then we would be in trouble... "I'll just add a little to this - H2O, liquid or gas, is H2O. if you wanted the H2 and O2 by them self, you need electrolysis, which isn't hard at all as i understand it, just add voltage, even 12V should be enough." Not trying to separate the H and O in the water molecule! It is being introduced to the gasoline molecule so that it forms H3O by removing one of the hydrogen molecules from the gasoline, which will cause a further breakdown of the gasoline molecule. Oh, the only reason the inside of my motor might be cleaner than any other is because of the oil I use. It doesn't come in a yellow container. It isn't synthetic, either.
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10-14-2004, 08:01 AM | #42 | |
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Re: Gas mileage question.
Buick you still did not completely understand my post. the exaust WOULD HAVE TO BE JUST AS COOL AS THE INTAKE TO RUN AT 100% EFFICIECY. this is because when combustion occures Heat (ie. energy) is released in an exothermic reaction (hydro carbons splitting and carbons reacting with oxygen and a few other reactions with nitrogen and hydrogen etc...) as you should know when a gas is heated it expands. this creates a high pressure on tip of the piston which pushes the piston down. as the piston moves further and further down the tempatures in the cylender become lower and lower. this is because the heat (energy) is being lost to the mechanical decompresion (the piston moving down). its like why you get frost bite from propane. or why CO2 is cold when coming out of a cylender. you have so much energy (heat) in a certian ammount of matter. when that energy has to be spread out with the spreading out of the matter it gets colder. because the stroke of even the largest of diesels isnt long enough to let the gases expand to the tempature they where on the intake stroke not all of the thermal energy (heat) is turned into mechanical energy and is pushed out of the engine on the exaust stroke. and your statements about fule not being a vapor in a gasoline engine. well in fule injected engines it is very often that fule is injected onto the back side of the inake valve on all strokes except the intake stroke. the exaust vualve will be hot since it is a part of the surface area of the combustion chamber. and as i already covered not all thermal energy will be turned into mechanical energy and will be excess thermal energy will be lost in the exaust stroke and some will linger in the engine block and heads. so anyway, the back of the exaust vualve is very hot and will immediatly vaporise any liquid gasoline that hits it. on top of the fact that most injectors spray the mist so fine that the gasoline is practicly vaporized when it is injected. carburated engines, however, use the carburator to turn liquid fule into a gas. that is the whole point of a carburator. im not exactly sure WHY they use propane for fork lifts and all in ware houses. but it sure as im typeing this isnt because they dont produce CO. it is very common for idiots to be using a propane stove inside and get CO poisining if they dont have proper vetalation. and warehouses are large and poory ventalated. get enough fork lifts running at one time there will be a build up of CO. and CO hurts us whether its concentrated or there is only 1m of it. it is bad for us (unlike CO2) because the hemoglobin in red blood cells will absorb it, but will not be bale to release it. and the cells will die after a while if they do not get a supply of oxygen. because even blood cells need oxygen to live. if you inhale just a little but of CO you wont feel a thing because there will still be enough red bllod cells to supply your brain and body with oxygen. but get enough and kill enough red blood cells you will feel fatigue and in extreme cases faint, and if not moved to a properly ventalated place, die because of lack of oxygen to the brain. you can be saved if a small blood transfusion is given and are on an oxygen breather for a while. CO is nothing to fool around with and any fule refined from crude oil will create CO when burned. Gasoline (petrol), diesel, propane, butane, kerosine, are all made form crude oil. im not going into how. its a process of heating and cooling the crude oil making it split into its different hydro carbons...thats all im saying...this post was long enough and has enough spelling errors...lol
Note: -CO is harmfull and created by all bruning of hydro carbons -Heat is energy -Expansion due to combustion of gases causes heat if the expansion is not allowed to be rapid enough or is not allowed to reach maximum volume -this results in heat not being turned into mechanical energy -propane is a hydro carbon -Fule injection sprays a very fine mist towards the intake valve, the valve is hot and any liquid that comes in contact will be vaporised (turned into vapor) -get over it, i cant spell |
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10-14-2004, 09:37 AM | #43 | |
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- All fuels have carbon, any unused carbon and oxygen are turned into CO
-During the combustion, there is a lot of heat, Fuel exits the injector/carb in liquid form as tiny droplets (yes tiny droplets in liquid form) and imediatly starts absorbing heat. Small amounts of alchohols in fuel help reduce temps of the A/F mix prior to combustion be cause they have a high latent heat of vaoporization ( the amount of energy needed to turn from a liquid to a gas.) -So prior to combustion, most of the fuel is vaporized, this doesn't mean broken down into singular atoms, that happens when the spark ignites the mix and burns. -oxygen and fuel cannot be broken down into propanes prior to ignition in the normal combestion process. (keyword normal combustion process.) -can we stop calling it an axplosion? this is a controlled burn people, we aren't dealing with nitro methane here "the use of energy in the conventional normal combustion engine" by BJ Moore (me) Prior to Air/Fuel mix entering the combustion chamber there is residual energy in the cylinder, mostly held by interior cylinder surfaces in the form of heat. The fuel in the A/F mix is absorbing energy even before it reaches the cylinder (energy in the form of heat that has been transfered to the manifold and other surfaces.) By the time the A/F enters the chamber, it is already holding a lot of energy. The piston is moving down, drawing in that wonderful mix, hopefully creating some good turbulence, the mix is absorbing more energy from the cylinder surfaces and getting (hopefully) complete vaporization, cylinder coming back up, more turbulence, more energy absorbed, piston reaching close to the top. Now at this moment prior to the spark plug going snap, or snap snap snap snap in the case of a little MSD, this compressed mix of gases (I say gases because it is all in the gaseous form, including H2O water, wich in its gaseus form can be compressed) has not absorbed enogh energy to turn into methane or any other -ane other than the original -ane that it was, be it cycloheptane or propane. Moving on. Spark goes and the fuel ignites (not explodes!) During this process, more energy is being released, but not all of it goes into pushing the piston down. A lot of it goes back into the cylinder surfaces, we don't want the engine to hold all of that energy as heat because it would lead to engine failure, so we try to draw some of it out with our coolant. Now the piston is moving down. The flame front doesn't push it all the way down till it reaches the bottom of its stroke, i forget the estimated position where the flame front stops contributing, but the piston is accelerating faster do to the engines geometry and the fact that another flame front on top of another piston is turning the crankshaft at this point. Now the piston is coming back up, the exhast valve is open and pushing out these spent gases that are now different gases altogethor because they absorbed some of that combustion energy joining with other unburned stuff and burned stuff to create other stuff, CO NOx etc. If we also have a slower burning fuel or a really rich mix some fuel still might be burning as it exits, still releasing energy, but going out of the exhaust. proper exhaust temps are about 1500 degrees F. Now if an engine were 100% effeicient (as mentioned earlier) the exhaust would be about the same temperature as the air we are taking into the engine and we would also not need any cooling system. As much as i would love to write some more, most people have turne d away from this already and i have to go do some homework for both of my stats classes this afternoon. thank you all for reading this if you need help please call the suicide assitence line
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10-14-2004, 10:38 AM | #44 | |
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Re: Gas mileage question.
There is a difference between burning a gas (the propane stove) and causing fumes to explode (forklift and truck motors). A fire isn't exploding, unless you put an erosol spray can into it...Current motors burn the fuel. You can cause an explosion with a small amount of fuel. To burn, you need considerably mor. The whole point of the system is to change it from a burning process to an explosion process.
methane, ethane, propane, butane, and isobutain are organic hydrocarbons known as alkanes. They are not created from crude oil, but together with a complex mixture of alkenes, cycloalkanes, and aromatic compounds form crude oil. Crude oil in turn is used to produce Gasoline, Kerosene, heating and lubricating oils. You can take the products above, and cause them to react to other particles to get back to the basic structures, which is what a supercarbureted system does. Gasoline, which can have anywhere between 6-12 carbon atoms in it, will react to evaporated water when evaporated to produce methanol, CH3OH. With the gasoline molecule defficient by 1 Carbon molecule and 2 Hydrogen molecules, it will further break down to a given amount of methane (CH4), ethane (C2H6), and propane (C3H8). Methane, ethane, and propane combine to form a natural gas. The best way to describe it is that it is like taking back all the energy that was used in the process to make the gasoline in the first place. The fine mist a fuel injector is supposed to put out isn't very fine. It is more like a stream. A fine mist would only be injected about 1-2 feet at 35psi. A not so fine of a mist is sprayed up to four feet. A brand new fuel injector sprays the gasoline at least 5 feet. You can test that yourself easily enough. The fuel isn't being misted into the cylinders, it is being sprayed. Here is proof of the lead additive in a gasoline. Notice how it is worded: "The octane rating of hydrocarbons can be improved by the addition of small quantities of compounds called "antiknocking agents". Among the most widely udes antiknocking agents are the following; CH3 | CH2 CH3 | | CH3-CH2-Pb-CH2-CH3 CH3-Pb-CH3 | | CH2 CH3 | CH3 tetraethyllead tetramethyllead ...The catylitic converters with which late-model automobiles are equipped can be "poisoned" by lead...To minimize knocking, unleaded gasolines contain methyl-tert-butyl-ether, which has the same effect on the gasoline." (Raymond Chang, seventh edition chemistry) It has the same effect as the lead does. Hmmm. I wonder why it's there. Surely not to minimize knocking in an unleaded motor? Only diesel "knocks." A though about diesel motors. The diesel is not ignited by a spark. The heat comes from being compressed. It produces all the heat heat needed to ignite simply by compressing. Unleaded engines compress the gas considarably...Electric energy does not eaqual heat energy. A diesel should have better gas mileage, better torque, and less emmisions than a standard unleaded motor. Proof? The Duramax diesel by GM. NO unleaded V8 comes close to it in all three respects.
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10-14-2004, 10:40 AM | #45 | |
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Re: Gas mileage question.
Notice the second paragraph. All C atoms and O atoms are being used.
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