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Old 02-24-2003, 11:33 AM   #1
PhantomDesign
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Optimum Super Car Setup

You may have seen my predator concept before, and figured out that I first designed the car without designing the chassis. Right now the Predator is at version 4, and I was about to upgrade it to version 5. Considering the vast number of revisions I was going to be doing to the car, I decided I might as well build the chassis design before I re-modeled the entire car.

http://phantom.ssip.net/
…or…
http://phantom.ssip.net/Gallery/Predator/wallpaper.htm
(site is not quite complete yet...sorry, but I started it from scratch (Including all graphics) on 02-23-03)

Anyways, right now I’m trying to get some general ideas for the chassis design. The main concern at the moment is not styling (which I’ll worry about that my self at the moment). The main concerns are legality, technology, performance, and comfort.

A thing you may want to consider is I really want to keep my convertible system. If you haven’t figured out yet, it’s a hard top convertible system that transforms from a single intake (when top is up) to a dual intake (when top is down). It does it quite efficiently. I may be quite uneasy about stuff that would require me to get rid of that, especially since it is MY idea. I’ve never seen anything like it, and it’s a key feature on the car. The race version won’t be a convertible, but the commercial will.

I think by looking at the pictures you should easily be able to understand the type of car chassis I’m looking at. Cost is not really a factor since the car will cost at least $500,000 U.S. and as much as $1,250,000 U.S. Rich people will foot the bill, and you’ll enjoy the pictures and videos.

So suggestions are welcome about….
Weight
Power
Handling
Aerodynamic drag
Aerodynamic down force
Passenger comfort
Views (cameras can be included, but there might be legal issues)
Brake System
Engine
Drive train
Superchargers/Turbos/etc…
Exterior Panel Composition
Interior structure Composition
Radiators
Wheel composition
Shifting Style
Exhaust
Engine Position/Location/Size/Orientation
Suspension/shocks
Steering
Additional parts/electronics needed (for stuff like traction control system [are any extra parts needed?])
Wheelbase
Car Length
Car Height
Car width
Tire thickness (distance between the edge of the rim and the edge of the tire)
Clearance (nose, rear, and center clearance)
Front wheel rotation angle (max sharpness of steering)
Driver Setup (steering wheel & Shifter & petals location relative to seat + seat setup)

I’m sure the list is at least twice that long. If you think you’re an “expert” at any of this stuff, feel free to give your advice.


Feel free to critique anything else, even though I’m completely changing the design. I’m not offended by very much, except personal attacks. I love critiques.

I’m very good at mathematics, and dimensions, so I doubt any of you will loose me there. I’m a little new to car design, so I may ask for a simple definition of some terminology.

If any of you would like to directly discuss the issue with me, feel free to instant message me.

AIM Screen Name: PhantomCarDesign
E-mail: PhantomCars@hotmail.com
Web-Site: http://phantom.ssip.net/
(my website is not complete yet…but feel free to critique it anyways)
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Old 02-24-2003, 12:23 PM   #2
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Whoa dude OK lets narrow it a little and ask something specific

id say chassis costruction should be

monocoque carbonfibre/titainium composite (or alluminium for reduced costs)

drag and downforce go hand in hand u cant have DF without drag

so adjustable front airdam and rear wing would give u a balance

Hmmmm cameras well im not sure on this but in car TV systems are not
allowed to function while the vehicle moves (In Aus anyway) and navigation isn't either I think (noy sure)

but ive heard of cars that use cams in USA so ????

to keep the cam system simple store all the hardware in one location and use optical fibre to send the image

for that matter i wonder if its practical (i a sense) to use optical fibre through out the car instead of copper this would save waight providing the acconpanying electrics dont outway the copper wire equivalent.

Brakes once again carbon fibre 18inch Discs with Dual 6-8 piston calipers

horizontally opposed Flat 12 quad cam quad turbo
through a single gear variable speed Gbox (not sure of the technical name) all wheel hydraulic drive.


that ll do 4 now
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Old 02-24-2003, 01:55 PM   #3
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You can actually have quite a lot of downforce without any additional drag - gound effect.

Steering - should be able to go lock to lock without taking the hands off the wheel, and an electronic power steering with the assisting force dependant on speed.

Suspension - can't beat double wishbone front and rear.

Cameras are a good idea to help reversing.

Engine - V8/V10 turbo (quad turbo - two on each bank, one turbo smaller for fast spoolup and low-end grunt, and the bigger one for high revs when the smaller turbo runs out of breath)

Passenger comfort - last thing to consider!

I agree on other points with Zammo.
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Old 02-24-2003, 02:05 PM   #4
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So, I'm assuming you're studying the NHTSA regulations for automobiles if you want to sell this in the US? I can see a few points where that car would not bee street legal in the US.

How many do you intend to build at those prices? What engine do you think would power it? When do you expect to have it completed for testing?
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Old 02-24-2003, 02:54 PM   #5
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And do you need a test driver?
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Old 02-24-2003, 07:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zammo
Whoa dude OK lets narrow it a little and ask something specific

id say chassis costruction should be

monocoque carbonfibre/titainium composite (or alluminium for reduced costs)

drag and downforce go hand in hand u cant have DF without drag

so adjustable front airdam and rear wing would give u a balance

Hmmmm cameras well im not sure on this but in car TV systems are not
allowed to function while the vehicle moves (In Aus anyway) and navigation isn't either I think (noy sure)

but ive heard of cars that use cams in USA so ????

to keep the cam system simple store all the hardware in one location and use optical fibre to send the image

for that matter i wonder if its practical (i a sense) to use optical fibre through out the car instead of copper this would save waight providing the acconpanying electrics dont outway the copper wire equivalent.

Brakes once again carbon fibre 18inch Discs with Dual 6-8 piston calipers

horizontally opposed Flat 12 quad cam quad turbo
through a single gear variable speed Gbox (not sure of the technical name) all wheel hydraulic drive.


that ll do 4 now
The chassis should definitely be of a aluminum honeycomb-reinforced carbon fiber laminate moncoque type. Body panels also.

Carbon fiber brake discs would be completely out of the question for street use. Maybe if you were to clamp the pads on the discs constantly to maintain operating temperature. However, it might be nice to use carbon fiber-reinforced silicon carbide brake discs. About the lightest material next to aluminum, but distortion and wear are negligible.

With dual calipers, brake fade would be a concern, I would think.

Flat and horizontally opposed mean the same thing. A flat 12 would pretty much have no benefit except for lower center of gravity. Intake/exhaust piping and general space concerns would probably null that idea. Quad cam, fine. DOHC is a must. You might want a 5-valve head - but Ferrari's F1 cars switched back to 4-valve, so...

Bad ideas for transmission. A continuously-variable transmission would NO chance at handling the torque I'm expecting the engine to provide. An electrohydraulically-actuated manual transmission would probably be for the best, for both experienced and newbie drivers.

How about a titanium flywheel /w CF-reinforced SiC friction plate? Center-sprung titanium clutch /w said friction material? Titanium carbonitrided maraging steel gears? (come to think of it, TiCN EVERY metal that encounters friction ) Carbon fiber drive/halfshafts?

All wheel drive, while good for harsh weather and terrain, don't offer much for dry use, where one would expect a car like this to be used. You can get neutral steer, yes, but you can dial that in with suspension settings, but I think many prefer a tad of oversteer. Good AWD systems generally weigh a lot. Viscous-coupled front wheels will only get torque if the rears spin faster than the front wheels, and even then, the compensation won't be instantaneous. A good setup might consist of a clutch-based LS center differential, and Torsen differentials front and rear - a tad heavy, though.

If you choose to go the way of the Torsen diffs, put in a computer system that engages the brakes (did I mention it might be good to have separate cylinders for each caliper driven by electric motors? ) on the wheel(s) that lift off the ground or otherwise lose traction. This'll send lots of torque to the opposite wheel with traction.

Since this is mostly likely a one-off project, email me and we can discuss next-gen engine materials?

For induction, I would like to suggest a twin-charging intake system. A tight-tolerance clutch-actuated (off the crank, of course) twin-screw supercharger can handle the low revs while TWO (for packaging reasons) big turbos (also from next-gen materials, email me to discuss) can handle boost from each bank.

A throttleless intake manifold is a must. I have an idea for a variable lift/timing/duration cam system that can work without a throttle valve, thus eliminating power loss from sucking vacuum. You can also get maximum torque from all RPMs except for idle, heh. I also think telescoping intake runners would benefit the wide powerband - you want that, right? One of Mazda's Le Mans (IIRC) rotaries used telescoping runners.

One other thing about the cam system - put some thought into using the Miller intake cycle - throughout 15-20% of the beginning of the compression stroke, the valves remain open. You'll find some nice numbers from the single Mazda engine that used it.

I'd like to suggest direct fuel injection, but I don't really see a need for it, as we aren't going for max fuel economy.

Dry-sump lubrication a must, fully synthetic engine oil /w mixed boric acid and suspended molybdenum disulfide particles, etc.

Now for the suspension - double wishbone is a must. Carbon fiber control arms and the like will serve you well. For the springing/damping stuff, I suggest you take a look at Citroën's Hydractive series of suspensions. They look to be as close as you come to active suspension. They also have a nice anti-roll technology.

Like I said, email if you want to discuss such things.

Howard Li
howardli@rogers.com
149794156
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Old 02-24-2003, 07:20 PM   #7
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BTW, I'd like to see a HUGE displacement 60-deg V12 in there.

...placed behind the driver (who sits in the middle just like in the Mc Ell F1) and in front of the rear axle, longitudinally mounted of course.
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Old 02-24-2003, 11:51 PM   #8
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No time for a full reply (sorry)

http://phantom.ssip.net/Files/Predator%20Chassis.htm

Please check that out!!!
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Old 02-25-2003, 12:09 AM   #9
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wow i want one already... if you ever realise your dream and create at least one of these we can all say we watched its birth and creation. if i ever get super rich i WILL fund this project

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Old 02-25-2003, 12:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by GTi-VR6_A3
wow i want one already... if you ever realise your dream and create at least one of these we can all say we watched its birth and creation. if i ever get super rich i WILL fund this project

-GTi-VR6_A3
If you have Brand Names, Model Numbers/Names, and links of the best stuff out there, please include them in your suggestion.

Well I psoted here at version 3...so, you missed the begining of hte borth process(who wants to watch that anyways..yUck!!!) Most importantly You have an option to interact and be a part.

get rich soon enough... I don't expect tis to sit aroudn waiting. Of course I'll have many more cool designs. This is only my second.

For those of you who think this is just purely technical specifications being randomly thrown around, make sure you visit my site(even though it's incomplete).

[url]http://phantom.ssip.net/
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Old 02-25-2003, 01:07 AM   #11
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What about the aerodynamics? it needs to be designed in the windtunnel to make sure it produces downforce, not lift (anyone remember the flipping mercedes slr at lemans 99? )

And don't take the discussion off the forum - we're all interested, and some might contribute something useful.
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Old 02-25-2003, 05:45 AM   #12
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You forgot to remove the original brake disc idea. It's not good at all to mix and match brakes.

Same with chassis - one or the other. Body panels should only be carbon fiber to save weight.
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Old 02-25-2003, 06:59 AM   #13
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Too much random nonsense was here...
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Last edited by PhantomDesign; 02-25-2003 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 02-25-2003, 10:37 AM   #14
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I replaced the previous post due to an excess of random nonsense (lol)
=======================================

I have been carefully reading and dissecting all suggestions, so don’t think I have necessarily ignored anything yet. I have not yet researched much, so my list is very unrefined. If you are going to critique something specific, please quote the item on the list.

Brakes: I really don’t know much about brakes at all. Also, does carbon fiber-reinforced silicon carbide brake discs" that are "crossdrilled and grooved" sound good? Is there a better system/setup of brakes?

Questions:

I received a suggestion of “monocoque carbonfibre/titainium composite” Is this a titanium & carbon fiber combination? Would a “aluminum honeycomb-reinforced carbon fiber laminate moncoque” work better (weight and strength).

Aslo for the body said to use “aluminum honeycomb-reinforced carbon fiber laminate moncoque” also for body panels also. Is this different than just carbon fiber, and if so, what are the advantages.

I received a really good seat suggestion: Sparco Milano. I’m trying to find specifications about various things like dimensions, mounting, weight, etc. The seat looks like you can’t get much better.

Any specific suggestions (an example part) or modifications of a specific part would also be appreciated if possible. I’m going to try to figure out what every part is going to be (A modification of an existing part, materials, weight, size, pros, cons, cooling needs, durability).


It’s kind of crazy communicating with so many people (9 forums) at once…but I really appreciate the suggestions so far, and want tons more. Pretty soon (Wednesday night probably) instead of getting as many options as possible, I’ll start to eliminate options.


A thing of concern is I don't want to purely copy a McLaren F1. So, if you are suggesting stuff JUST because a McLaren has it, let people who know about various parts make the suggestions.

If you have anything to back up your validity (only if you do not mind), please state it (saying “I’m a brake engineer” would probably put you on the top of my list for brake suggestions rather than accidentally putting your suggestion on the bottom.)
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Old 02-25-2003, 10:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by ales
What about the aerodynamics? it needs to be designed in the windtunnel to make sure it produces downforce, not lift (anyone remember the flipping mercedes slr at lemans 99? )

And don't take the discussion off the forum - we're all interested, and some might contribute something useful.
I've considered a lot of aerodynamic issues. Feel free to sugest anything.

I'm not removing this thread, so no wirries. You guys have been very useful so far.
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